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Ferren Mall site (w/ renderings)

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lawmatt78

Heisman Winner
Oct 11, 2004
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Devco just posted this on Facebook. I'm sure it is subject to revisions, but here it is.

The first thing that strikes me is the wall(!) that cuts off the building from the sidewalk. This repeats one of the design errors of Kilmer Square, and does it even more egregiously. It's simply bad urban design - and any survey of decent planners would produce a near-consensus on this point.

The aloof and isolated nature of the buildings reminds me of Newark's Gateway Center - a place that should not be emulated.

The plaza, for its part, looks rather sterile and appears to be an afterthought. It appears that the ground level will receive minimal light and not be a particularly welcoming place to be.

I do like the glass, though. It's a step up from the brick paneling that has become nearly ubiquitous in the city.

Chris - what's up with this?

10414426_837235796305602_6745301861613720111_n.jpg



10294318_837235792972269_4686376315031688733_n.jpg
 
Agreed, another WTF initial design by Devco. Do you guys even hire planners? If yes, get rid of them and find a new team. The wall is a stupid idea. And why are the buildings not tied together in some common way? The poster above gets it right, isolated buildings with no plaza or usable/attractive outdoor space.
 
The Facebook announcement reads: "New Jersey's next exciting corporate and residential address."

That sums it up right there. The prospective tenants are acknowledged - which is certainly fine - but there is nothing about how this furthers the urban environment or makes NB a place where people simply want to be....

I've said this 100 times: it's not simply a matter of getting new business and residents into the city; it's a matter of creating a place where people (who may not otherwise spend much time in NB) want to spend time (and, by extension, money). Some urban environments do this better than others.

NB has made tremendous improvements, but I don't miss living there. It simply wasn't an fun a day-to-day urban environment as it could be.
 
Originally posted by Korbermeister:
Did they decide not to align spring street with easton avenue?
Click to expand...
It looks like that idea was scrapped. I know some of us disagreed about the importance of that. I didn't see it as a compelling idea.

Given the location of this site, the public space component should be emphasized. Unfortunately it looks like an afterthought. And the wall is something I'd expect at a federal courthouse, not a mixed-use project.
 
Bottom-righthand corner, next to the north-bound train... What is the grey/white structure parallel to the train?
 
Ok before you all get hysterical this is a rendering put together to represent scale for a number of presentations . We are actually in engaged in discussions with tenants that could take over 1/2 million sf of commercial space including office and research in the bio tech , life science , financial services , and technology sectors. We also assume that there will be at least 500 residential units and 100,000sf of retail space.
THERE is NO design.....we need to continue to master plan the site to include parking, connectivity, public spaces etc. this preliminary plan shows platform extension and bridge connection which is currently under design and fully funded .
There will be no wall....but we assume the buildings will connected at upper levels . Parking will be underground.
But....this is the scale some of these building will be very tall...we will keep you updated
If any of you have constructive suggestions....great examples of other 4 acre sites, or can recommend a name please post or send to me at cpaladino@devco.org or call me at 732-249-2220 .....
If you don't have constructive recomendations I will take aloof, wtf, bad, stupid as general critiques
 
Coififa:

I really like the fact that you are open to our input. Refreshing to have a public official willing to enter into a real give and take. Thanks.
 
Chris,

I understand that this is very preliminary, but when you put it out on Facebook, people are going to think it represents something more than a massing study.

I have no problem with the scale. It makes sense on that site. My primary concern is with the street-level experience.

This site may be best chance to build something akin to a town square or central gathering place. I would hope that goal can be more fully reconciled with adding the desired office and residential space.

Have you seen what has been proposed for the Coliseum site in New Haven, CT? (A city fairly analogous to NB). I wouldn't say it is perfect, and the parking is above ground.....however, public space is clearly a key component.


ColiseumSiteRenderingJune2013.jpg
 
Law-

The New Haven design you display is nice. But, do you really think New Haven is comparable to NB? Having just visited New Haven, I think NB is considerably better than New haven, a city that consistently rates as one of the most dangerous cities in America. So much urban blight there.
 
Originally posted by RU-ROCS:
Law-

The New Haven design you display is nice. But, do you really think New Haven is comparable to NB? Having just visited New Haven, I think NB is considerably better than New haven, a city that consistently rates as one of the most dangerous cities in America. So much urban blight there.
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I don't disagree about New Haven. I didn't want to use an example from a big and/or wealthy city. That would perhaps be unfair to NB. An example from a lesser city is perhaps more relevant in that it might suggest that NB should be able to do something at least as good.
 
Matt and others your right if we don't get the streets cape and pedestrian experience right all we did was build metro park or gateway in Newark
The place has to flow and appear to have four fronts we need a significant public amenity ....we are all pretty much on same page
 
I hope you stand strong in the case of opposition like in the Grease Truck lot project. NB needs a lot more density; it needs a lot more apartment space, premium retail, and rental units. Make that skyscraper as tall as possible.
 
I'm pleased to see that DEVCO is aiming for large-scale development with this project, although I agree that creating a usable, desirable public space component and fostering activity at the street level is crucial.

What is the approximate time frame on the deck coming down and construction beginning? Is this something we can hope to see get underway in the next few years?
 
Optimistic that demo starts in the fall and phase 1 construction within the year
 
Great! Ferren mall/deck is now a dead zone and even if the lot stays empty for another year, the large open area will allow one to get a better perspective on the size, scope of any future construction there.
 
Originally posted by Cofifa:
Matt and others your right if we don't get the streets cape and pedestrian experience right all we did was build metro park or gateway in Newark
The place has to flow and appear to have four fronts we need a significant public amenity ....we are all pretty much on same page
Click to expand...
Very glad to hear that.
 
Regarding green space: I don't see the 2 blocks of spring st from Albany to Paterson as necessary (lol) so what if those 2 blocks of that street were used as the green space (I'd make it a bit wider). that way you'd lose less footage on the main site for the building/s. You could make the entrance to underground parking on the site where church street would then end.
 
The good thing about keeping spring open as a street since it's nothing special today is that it serves as a effective service corridor and you don't have to service several of the buildings out of the center of the site
 
Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Originally posted by Cofifa:
Matt and others your right if we don't get the streets cape and pedestrian experience right all we did was build metro park or gateway in Newark
The place has to flow and appear to have four fronts we need a significant public amenity ....we are all pretty much on same page
Click to expand...
Very glad to hear that.
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Me too!
 
Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Chris,

I understand that this is very preliminary, but when you put it out on Facebook, people are going to think it represents something more than a massing study.

I have no problem with the scale. It makes sense on that site. My primary concern is with the street-level experience.

This site may be best chance to build something akin to a town square or central gathering place. I would hope that goal can be more fully reconciled with adding the desired office and residential space.

Have you seen what has been proposed for the Coliseum site in New Haven, CT? (A city fairly analogous to NB). I wouldn't say it is perfect, and the parking is above ground.....however, public space is clearly a key component.


ec
Click to expand...
no that looks cool. my wife is a planner/landscape architect and she would agree with the sentiment expressed here. Build this, not the other thing.
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by srru86:
An general article of the draw of urban communities
Star Ledger
Sprawl withdrawal: Young NJ residents push toward cities and away from suburbia
Click to expand...
NIRH will certainly feel supported by this piece. Mass transit indeed seems important.
Click to expand...
Although I don't want to derail this thread, I will comment that the study from the linked article talks about the growth of towns that are walkable and have mixed-use town centers. The study does not address the need for mass transit (and especially does not address mass transit to NYC).
 
Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by srru86:
An general article of the draw of urban communities
Star Ledger
Sprawl withdrawal: Young NJ residents push toward cities and away from suburbia
Click to expand...
NIRH will certainly feel supported by this piece. Mass transit indeed seems important.
Click to expand...
Although I don't want to derail this thread, I will comment that the study from the linked article talks about the growth of towns that are walkable and have mixed-use town centers. The study does not address the need for mass transit (and especially does not address mass transit to NYC).
Click to expand...
"A Star-Ledger analysis of Census, schools and real estate data shows the state's outer-ring suburbs, those that exist on the fringe of the New York and Philadelphia metropolitan areas, have stagnated. Their populations are graying far more quickly than anywhere else in the state as younger couples flock to places like Morristown, Maplewood and Montclair ? municipalities that draw a common thread in their walkable downtowns and easy access to mass transit."

They definitely do mention mass transit- neither I or the article link it to NYC just mass transit generally (certainly, plenty of NJ residents take mass transit to in state jobs or Philly). And both myself and the SL used the far out suburbs (as I said, exurbs, and we debated what that meant, so I'll adopt their, I think, less controversial, outer-ring) as the problem.

But their conclusion is different from mine in the sense that I used property value- the SL looks at age and population decline.

You can see on their map, roughly west of 287 is the most severe and south of that isn't so hot.

A big difference I note is that I don't think my theory on schools is so hot. I note Holmdel, which is an example of a town with great schools, but no downtown and not great train access, is a darker red. My mom works in a pretty well-regarded district, and they're having their first decline in years.

Also interesting to me is that some walkable towns with the train look bad on this map. South Amboy is one good example of that. And a then a town like Howell- no train, schools-so-so- does better than the town with better schools. Funny, as this was a town I was looking at for investment because I think property there is undervalued for a variety of reasons so I wonder if other millenials are onto it.

But what I think we can all agree on is young people are really avoiding the western part of the state, with the exception of one very walkable and hip and train-accessible town. What else is it, if not the factors discussed?
 
NIRH -- I was talking about the Bloustein study, which only mentions mass transit in passing in a single sentence, but goes on for pages about the importance of mixed-use walkable towns and the change away from suburban sprawl for adults in their 20s and early 30s.

I have no idea what the Star-Ledger analysis found. However, if their analysis of census data is anything like their analysis of financial data, it has zero credibility.
 
Yeah not that I put much stock in it- but they show census data on the map- and it's clear- the further from the city you get, the towns are getting increasingly older, which does seem to show less younger people are moving to the western part of the state.
 
Just to clarify - what it actually shows is that the townships have more retirement age people than before. The map itself doesnt make any claims regarding young people, nor really any claims as to whether old people are just aging in place, or are actually moving into these towns, nor of course whether the changes are statistically significant.

Actually its kind of an odd map given that the article is all about the movements of young people.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

Also interesting to me is that some walkable towns with the train look bad on this map. South Amboy is one good example of that. And a then a town like Howell- no train, schools-so-so- does better than the town with better schools. Funny, as this was a town I was looking at for investment because I think property there is undervalued for a variety of reasons so I wonder if other millenials are onto it.
Click to expand...
With regard to Howell,

if you're not too far from Rte. 9 you have access to an express bus, no?

And for their schools since they are part of the Freehold Regional District they have the best of both worlds for public HS choices:

The Monmouth County Vocationals (HiTech, BioTech, Allied Heatlh, etc.) and the Freehold Regional version of each. Those of us in Eastern Monmouth do not.

There used to be no "there" in Howell, there is some "there" now.
 
Another general urban attractiveness news item:

Star Ledger
10 most exciting places to live in New Jersey, according to real estate group
New Brunswick number 6.
But behind Trenton? I know they have minor league sports and other events at their arena. But the bar and dining scene is not good and getting worse. Town is dead after all the State employees leave at 4:30. A former State senator used to joke that Trenton is the only city where the afternoon rush hour is over before 5:00 PM.
 
That Movoto list is questionable. New Brunswick behind Trenton? LMAO. Union City is on that list solely because of its proximity to Hoboken, otherwise there's nothing.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by e5fdny:
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

Also interesting to me is that some walkable towns with the train look bad on this map. South Amboy is one good example of that. And a then a town like Howell- no train, schools-so-so- does better than the town with better schools. Funny, as this was a town I was looking at for investment because I think property there is undervalued for a variety of reasons so I wonder if other millenials are onto it.
Click to expand...
With regard to Howell,

if you're not too far from Rte. 9 you have access to an express bus, no?

And for their schools since they are part of the Freehold Regional District they have the best of both worlds for public HS choices:

The Monmouth County Vocationals (HiTech, BioTech, Allied Heatlh, etc.) and the Freehold Regional version of each. Those of us in Eastern Monmouth do not.

There used to be no "there" in Howell, there is some "there" now.
Click to expand...
Yup- exactly why I think it's undervalued. You can be walking distance from Route 9, Freehold address, Freehold Regional schools.

Also I like the I-195 access.

But don't let others catch on because I was considering buying a place there to use in the summer!
 
Originally posted by Leonard23:
That Movoto list is questionable. New Brunswick behind Trenton? LMAO. Union City is on that list solely because of its proximity to Hoboken, otherwise there's nothing.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
Agree- they only used the top 50 most populated places which also makes no sense.

The "Big 3" are Hoboken, JC, and Morristown. Then you have New Brunswick and the Monmouth County part of the shore, Red Bank to Manasquan or so with smaller towns. For families you have Montclair and the train towns like Westfield and Summit. And Atlantic City is unique. But the Big 3 are the ones with general appeal as cities IMO, the others have more niche characteristics.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

Originally posted by Leonard23:
That Movoto list is questionable. New Brunswick behind Trenton? LMAO. Union City is on that list solely because of its proximity to Hoboken, otherwise there's nothing.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
Agree- they only used the top 50 most populated places which also makes no sense.

The "Big 3" are Hoboken, JC, and Morristown. Then you have New Brunswick and the Monmouth County part of the shore, Red Bank to Manasquan or so with smaller towns. For families you have Montclair and the train towns like Westfield and Summit. And Atlantic City is unique. But the Big 3 are the ones with general appeal as cities IMO, the others have more niche characteristics.
Click to expand...
Atlantic City may be an "exciting" place to live, but no sane person would voluntarily move there.
 
Originally posted by Leonard23:
That Movoto list is questionable. New Brunswick behind Trenton? LMAO. Union City is on that list solely because of its proximity to Hoboken, otherwise there's nothing.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
Bizarre list. Most of those places are not the least bit exciting - to me, at least.

And Morristown...never really understood that one. It's...OK.
 
NotInRHouse, I grew up in the Candlewood section of Howell. I would be surprised anyone would buy there and use as a summer house. What area where you thinking about? Maybe the Ramtown section would work, but its not near Rt 9.

We did walk to Route 9 as kids (Red Moon Pizza, A&P, DrugFair). Back in the 70's all the dads would walk to the bus stop on Salem Hill Rd to commute to NYC.

Not sure about the Freehold address, we had Howell addresses (It was previously Lakewood address until the late 70's when Howell got its own post office)
 
Morristown is nice, but it's too remote to really go much higher. Same for any shore town like Red Bank.
 
Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Originally posted by Leonard23:
That Movoto list is questionable. New Brunswick behind Trenton? LMAO. Union City is on that list solely because of its proximity to Hoboken, otherwise there's nothing.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Click to expand...
Bizarre list. Most of those places are not the least bit exciting - to me, at least.

And Morristown...never really understood that one. It's...OK.
Click to expand...
It is a bizarre list because of how the define "exciting". They rank each of 50 cities in 8 categories (which are really 7, since the fast food restaurant category is listed in 2 different ways, and therefore has double weight), and then average the rankings across the categories.


Nightlife per capita (bars, clubs, comedy, etc.)Live music venues per capitaActive life options per capita (parks, outdoor activities, etc.)Arts and Entertainment per capita (movie theaters, festivals, galleries, theaters, etc.)Fast Food restaurants per capita (the fewer the better)Percentage of restaurants that are not fast food (the higher the better)Percentage of young residents ages 18 to 34 (the higher the better)Population density (the higher the better)


I don't think this is a very useful list. I certainly wouldn't weight all of the categories equally. And in a state like NJ, where bar licenses are closely tied to population, what you are essentially ending up with is a list of densely populated cities with more people between 18 and 34.

And then once you get past the weakness of the criteria, the whole "rankings of rankings" methodology has serious flaws.
 
Howell being part of the Freehold Regional HS district is good. Howell being much cheaper than its neighbors to the north but you are still given the opportunity to attend the magnet programs at any of the area schools.
 
Originally posted by Jonny S:
Morristown is nice, but it's too remote to really go much higher. Same for any shore town like Red Bank.
Click to expand...
Too remote from what? If you work in Morris County or northern Somerset County, Morristown certainly is not remote.
 
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