So much of recruiting is perception and momentum. One gets the sense that had JG committed to Rutgers it might have opened a "floodgate" of top commitments. Instead we are left with hoping that Haskins or someone else will make that leap of faith and commit to Rutgers. And when that ever happens , who knows what will happen next.
Getting over the recruiting hump
- Thread starter jonS
- Start date
Forget JG. It's over and many people believe that from Day 1 he never intended to seriously consider RU. The Issue is that a coach is either a strong recruiter or not a strong recruiter. You don't all of the sudden become a good recruiter. GS was an effective recruiter from Day 1 though of course as things progressed he was able to use that ability to get even better results.
Now of course even if you have strong recruiting skills it doesn't mean that your success will continue. For example, Doug Graber, who came on in 1990 with awful facilities was able to get 4 players on one of the top 100 lists - Jackson, Bellamy, Spitzer and one other who I can't recall - in his second recruiting class and also Presley, Willis and others. He was an excellent recruiter but when he failed to get enough good defensive players and thus failed to improve performance after 1992, he couldn't get decent players to the extent needed.
His predecessor, Dick Anderson, was a good Xs and Os guy but was completely ineffective as a recruiter (albeit he had no conference and terrible facilities to offer) and this did not change even after we beat both PSU and MSU on the road in '88.
Terry Shea - one of the most decent, smart and gentlemanly men around, was an extremely ineffective recruiter (and a very poor choice as coach due to his lack of any connections at all to NJ or the east coast). His recruiting results never changed - weak from Day 1 even after being named Big East Coach of the Year (after a 5-6 season) - wow
Similarly, Coach Flood has shown himself to be a top notch individual and gentleman in every way but he has yet to demonstrate the ability to get a substantial number of top notch recruits to come to RU - which we need to effectively compete in the B1G. Recruiting skills are innate - it goes to the core of your personality - maybe Flood is too honest as an individual. But as I said above, you don't just develop those skills all of a sudden. Sometimes you can find assistants who are strong recruiters but that's a temporary fix since they inevitably move on to HC positions or higher paying schools.
This post was edited on 4/18 11:05 AM by CuredbywinningRU
Now of course even if you have strong recruiting skills it doesn't mean that your success will continue. For example, Doug Graber, who came on in 1990 with awful facilities was able to get 4 players on one of the top 100 lists - Jackson, Bellamy, Spitzer and one other who I can't recall - in his second recruiting class and also Presley, Willis and others. He was an excellent recruiter but when he failed to get enough good defensive players and thus failed to improve performance after 1992, he couldn't get decent players to the extent needed.
His predecessor, Dick Anderson, was a good Xs and Os guy but was completely ineffective as a recruiter (albeit he had no conference and terrible facilities to offer) and this did not change even after we beat both PSU and MSU on the road in '88.
Terry Shea - one of the most decent, smart and gentlemanly men around, was an extremely ineffective recruiter (and a very poor choice as coach due to his lack of any connections at all to NJ or the east coast). His recruiting results never changed - weak from Day 1 even after being named Big East Coach of the Year (after a 5-6 season) - wow
Similarly, Coach Flood has shown himself to be a top notch individual and gentleman in every way but he has yet to demonstrate the ability to get a substantial number of top notch recruits to come to RU - which we need to effectively compete in the B1G. Recruiting skills are innate - it goes to the core of your personality - maybe Flood is too honest as an individual. But as I said above, you don't just develop those skills all of a sudden. Sometimes you can find assistants who are strong recruiters but that's a temporary fix since they inevitably move on to HC positions or higher paying schools.
This post was edited on 4/18 11:05 AM by CuredbywinningRU
SAid this in terms of basketball.. but it applies to football as well..
imho, we need to take the route of Gonzaga in BBALL and Don Nehlens WVU teams in football.. which happens to be similar.
You recruit to target years with lots of upperclassmen and expect to do well in those years.. sacrificing the other years to build a upper-classmen lead team.
In basketball, Gonzaga made its name by redshirting everyone and eventually playing starters made up of a lot of 5th year seniors.
Boisie might be similar in football.. but they play in a less competitive conference so they don't suffer all that much when they don't have the upperclassmen dominant teams. Don Nehlen's WVU teams always seemed to come up with a great season every 4 years or so... dominated by upperclassmen.
This is something we can do regardless of getting the 4 and 5 star recruits. A 5th year 3-star who has applied himself and has been coached up can outplay underclass 4 and 5 star players. We just need to have the coaches who can get teh job done.. and recruit players who are motivated and spirited and want to be here.
I think taking the troubled 4 star who top programs passed on for some reason is generally not a good idea. He won't be happy with "lowly" Rutgers, will be hard to coach and his problems will infect the team. No sport requires teamwork and spirit and HEART like football does.
All this said.. we need the coaches with X and O prowess too. And we should play a style that players will love. I think that is a problem on the basketball side with Eddie's Princeton offense... but I really don't know enough to know that is the case.
imho, we need to take the route of Gonzaga in BBALL and Don Nehlens WVU teams in football.. which happens to be similar.
You recruit to target years with lots of upperclassmen and expect to do well in those years.. sacrificing the other years to build a upper-classmen lead team.
In basketball, Gonzaga made its name by redshirting everyone and eventually playing starters made up of a lot of 5th year seniors.
Boisie might be similar in football.. but they play in a less competitive conference so they don't suffer all that much when they don't have the upperclassmen dominant teams. Don Nehlen's WVU teams always seemed to come up with a great season every 4 years or so... dominated by upperclassmen.
This is something we can do regardless of getting the 4 and 5 star recruits. A 5th year 3-star who has applied himself and has been coached up can outplay underclass 4 and 5 star players. We just need to have the coaches who can get teh job done.. and recruit players who are motivated and spirited and want to be here.
I think taking the troubled 4 star who top programs passed on for some reason is generally not a good idea. He won't be happy with "lowly" Rutgers, will be hard to coach and his problems will infect the team. No sport requires teamwork and spirit and HEART like football does.
All this said.. we need the coaches with X and O prowess too. And we should play a style that players will love. I think that is a problem on the basketball side with Eddie's Princeton offense... but I really don't know enough to know that is the case.
Rutgers continues to lose the perception battles which then translates to recruiting.With all the negative publicity Penn State is still viewed highly by football recruits in NJ.The perception of being a big time football program even if its not really true right now carries great weight with recruits sitting in a 100,000 seat stadium.
Forget JG. It's over and many people believe that from Day 1 he never intended to seriously consider RU. The Issue is that a coach is either a strong recruiter or not a strong recruiter. You don't all of the sudden become a good recruiter. GS was an effective recruiter from Day 1 though of course as things progressed he was able to use that ability to get even better results. Now of course even if you have strong recruiting skills it doesn't mean that your success will continue. For example, Doug Graber, who came on in 1990 with awful facilities was able to get 4 players on one of the top 100 lists - Jackson, Bellamy, Spitzer and one other who I can't recall - in his second recruiting class and also Presley, Willis and others. He was an excellent recruiter but when he failed to get enough good defensive players and thus failed to ratchet it up after 1992, he couldn't get decent players to the extent needed.
His predecessor, Dick Anderson, was a good Xs and Os guy but was completely ineffective as a recruiter (albeit he had no conference and terrible facilities to offer) and this did not change even after we beat both PSU and MSU on the road in '88.
Terry Shea - one of the most decent, smart and gentlemanly men around, was an extremely ineffective recruiter (and a very poor choice as coach due to his lack of any connections at all to NJ or the east coast). His recruiting results never changed - weak from Day 1 even after being named Big East Coach of the Year (after a 5-6 season) - wow
Similarly, Coach Flood has shown himself to be a top notch individual and gentleman in every way but he has yet to demonstrate the ability to get a substantial number of top notch recruits to come to RU - which we need to effectively compete in the B1G. Recruiting skills are innate - it goes to the core of your personality - maybe Flood is too honest as an individual. But as I said above, you don't just develop them all of a sudden. Sometimes you can find assistants who are strong recruiters but that's a temporary fix since they inevitably move on to HC positions or higher paying schools.
plus 1000 Billion
FROM THE NEW YORK POST ABOUT MULLINS RECRUITING FOR ST JOHNS
The head coach is the closer - often the difference between scoring the top recruit or losing out.
His predecessor, Dick Anderson, was a good Xs and Os guy but was completely ineffective as a recruiter (albeit he had no conference and terrible facilities to offer) and this did not change even after we beat both PSU and MSU on the road in '88.
Terry Shea - one of the most decent, smart and gentlemanly men around, was an extremely ineffective recruiter (and a very poor choice as coach due to his lack of any connections at all to NJ or the east coast). His recruiting results never changed - weak from Day 1 even after being named Big East Coach of the Year (after a 5-6 season) - wow
Similarly, Coach Flood has shown himself to be a top notch individual and gentleman in every way but he has yet to demonstrate the ability to get a substantial number of top notch recruits to come to RU - which we need to effectively compete in the B1G. Recruiting skills are innate - it goes to the core of your personality - maybe Flood is too honest as an individual. But as I said above, you don't just develop them all of a sudden. Sometimes you can find assistants who are strong recruiters but that's a temporary fix since they inevitably move on to HC positions or higher paying schools.
plus 1000 Billion
FROM THE NEW YORK POST ABOUT MULLINS RECRUITING FOR ST JOHNS
The head coach is the closer - often the difference between scoring the top recruit or losing out.
I got to disagree with you. First year, Schiano left and we were scrambling to keep a class together. Following year you had the whole Cohen controversy and rumors of Flood being a lame duck coach. Inspite of all this he was able to sign kids that have shown to have great potential ( Turray, Boggs, Dailey, Webb, Seymour, Barnwel, Hicks, Martin, Patton, Cole, Wilkins, Dare, D. Miller )and some highly ranked transfers ( Hester, Rettig, Ford ).
We are off to a decent start in recruiting so far, it will only get better if we can win 8/9 games next year and avoid the blow out losses. So far, I like what I'm hearing about our S&C program and how the kids have working out. I also like the fact we are going to have a much bigger DL this year, all positives.
We are off to a decent start in recruiting so far, it will only get better if we can win 8/9 games next year and avoid the blow out losses. So far, I like what I'm hearing about our S&C program and how the kids have working out. I also like the fact we are going to have a much bigger DL this year, all positives.
+1. we have to stop with this flood/shea comparison. top guys were not even stepping foot on RU campus when Shea was here, and our facilities weren't even in the same zip code back then as they are today. and flood is 23-16 in three years, not under .500 like shea was. we have a ways to go (just watched the OSU special this morning on ESPN and damn their locker room is sickkkk), and i agree, he's missed out on two kids so far in his backyard, but 2016 is so deep, u still have the camden four, mitchell, upshur, the d end from philly dioubate, haskins the TE (maybe not the qb but who knows), there are a lot of 2016 kids still uncommitted. plus some fl kids we are still targeting. its april not feb 16'.
Root cause: Recruits and their support systems, just simply don't believe in Kyle Flood. I'm not even a Greg Schiano fan.. But he had a presence, and was respected as a legit football mind & coach. By many. At High School football games when he showed up, spectators and players would take notice. It had a feel of a celebrity in the air. With Kyle Flood, no one even knows who he is, and he comes off more like an assistant coach. Flood is just not the kind of commander that warriors trust to lead them into the battle field
Why would people make the judgement already that Flood and this staff can't recruit before seeing how the young players signed over the last 3 years turn out on the field? Because Rivals says so? KInd of ridiculous. Actually, Turay is one of the best prospects at DL that RU has signed in my memory. I think Hicks and Martin are going to be top RBs in the B1G. Grant, Patton, Boggs look like top athletes to me. How many of Schiano's touted 4 star recruits turned into good or very good college players? 30-40% maybe. I'm a show me guy...not a hype guy..
It is pretty obvious that you feel this way, but when you talk to fans who actually have contact behind the scenes, you get a totally different picture of things. Essentially what your post is telling us is that you have no clue what is actually going on,but you want people to think you do. Well, we don't.
Need to beat Ped St this year, then win as favorites @ Indy, steal a game (or 2??) at home and/or on the road as underdogs against the big boys, hold serve at home beating MD, go undefeated against OOC schedule (all games we should be favored). 8-4 regular season like that will build some B1G MO in recruiting.
You're totally wrong. It happened early in the 2014 class. And then later in the 2014 class, when the floodgates went out.
Darius Hamilton was as close as we had a 'Piep Piper (2012 recruiting class)
Hamilton was a 5 star, number 1 ranked kid in NJ.
Also in that class Leonte Caroo, 3rd ranked kid in NJ, also Quanzel Lambert 7th ranked kid in NJ, Ryan Brodie, 9th ranked, , Pollard 12th ranked , D Stephonson 13th ranked, , Davon Jacobs 15t ranked, JPO 16th ranked,
That's Half of the top 20 ! Now we are getting like 1 or 2 from the NJ top 20, and now in the Big10 ! I'm hopeful things will improve, but getting half of the NJ top 20 that class is very impressive. PS- 8 of those 9 are now key players
http://recruiting.scout.com/3/2012_NewJersey.html
In 2007 NJ #1 was Anthony Davis, RU got HALF of the top 15 in NJ that class .
http://recruiting.scout.com/3/2007_New_Jersey.html
Hamilton was a 5 star, number 1 ranked kid in NJ.
Also in that class Leonte Caroo, 3rd ranked kid in NJ, also Quanzel Lambert 7th ranked kid in NJ, Ryan Brodie, 9th ranked, , Pollard 12th ranked , D Stephonson 13th ranked, , Davon Jacobs 15t ranked, JPO 16th ranked,
That's Half of the top 20 ! Now we are getting like 1 or 2 from the NJ top 20, and now in the Big10 ! I'm hopeful things will improve, but getting half of the NJ top 20 that class is very impressive. PS- 8 of those 9 are now key players
http://recruiting.scout.com/3/2012_NewJersey.html
In 2007 NJ #1 was Anthony Davis, RU got HALF of the top 15 in NJ that class .
http://recruiting.scout.com/3/2007_New_Jersey.html
Raise your hands if you had us winning 4 games or less last year.
??. Come on now ?. We know you are there....
Can you give us your over/under for this year.? We are better than we were but not as good as we can, and hopefully, will be.. I am not Pollyanna but I am not Mr. Buzz kill either. Enjoy your summer and get ready for some big time home games next year..
??. Come on now ?. We know you are there....
Can you give us your over/under for this year.? We are better than we were but not as good as we can, and hopefully, will be.. I am not Pollyanna but I am not Mr. Buzz kill either. Enjoy your summer and get ready for some big time home games next year..
The reason behind my post is that kids want to win and they want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And when a JG or someone like him commits to Rutgers it creates instant legitimacy in the minds of many impressionable kids. Suddenly they can believe big things can happen at Rutgers which does not have a great football tradition like an OSU, Penn St or Michigan and for so long has not been associated with big time football. Things change but perception changes even more slowly.
I'm not sure how good of a recruiter Flood is yet. We have to remember that many of these 2015 and 2016 recruits wrote off Rutgers initially because of the uncertainty of what conference we'd be in. Only recently with our performance last season have the top 2016 recruits seriously considered us and I believe with another bowl appearance that will carry over for the long term into future classes.
What I do know about Flood, however, is that he is an incredible judge of talent. Look at the under recruited 1-, 2-, and 3- stars that played well for the team these past few years. It's a credit to him and the rest of the staff with being able to notice under the radar players and then develop them accordingly.
I firmly believe that we will get over this hump in the coming couple of years. And when, not if, we do, this coaching staff's ability to also judge underrated talent and develop said talent will make our team stronger than we have ever been.
It took such a relatively short amount of time to from our final seasons as perennial doormat to now being consistent bowl presence and B1G team. We need to be just a little more patient in terms of taking that next step because, when we do, I don't see us looking back.
What I do know about Flood, however, is that he is an incredible judge of talent. Look at the under recruited 1-, 2-, and 3- stars that played well for the team these past few years. It's a credit to him and the rest of the staff with being able to notice under the radar players and then develop them accordingly.
I firmly believe that we will get over this hump in the coming couple of years. And when, not if, we do, this coaching staff's ability to also judge underrated talent and develop said talent will make our team stronger than we have ever been.
It took such a relatively short amount of time to from our final seasons as perennial doormat to now being consistent bowl presence and B1G team. We need to be just a little more patient in terms of taking that next step because, when we do, I don't see us looking back.
Not expecting Haskins or Gary to come to Rutgers. We still don't have the pull for such kids. Davis, Hamilton, and Huggins came to Rutgers after Schiano laid the foundation over the course of 7 years. When he left we were just about there, but we got stalled as Flood had to come in and reestablish the program draw. Right now we should look for a class full of 3 stars and a couple of 4 stars to start building momentum for the future. That would be a solid follow up to 2014, which started off weak, but ended strong.
That's a fair expectation, and maybe we can aim and hit a little higher this year. Events of 2013 on and off the field set things back too, but we seem to have recovered.
Unfortunately, Hamilton committed rather late. Although there were rumors he was a silent commit, his late commit didn't really help with getting others on board unless they were in on his silent commit, but I can't see that happening. Based on the database, only Ian Thomas and Jevon Tyree committed after Darius, so no pied piper effect there. Of the top players that year, you could say maybe Carroo did a bit.
I do agree with a later poster that we did see the pied piper effect in reverse with the 2014 class. We lost Hester and others jumped. Part of the is on the dark cloud over Flood, though.
For all the people agreeing with SickofLosing, what role, if any, do assistant coaches and recruiters play in the role? Do you guys really think recruiting is all on the head coach?
In Schiano's best years, assistant coaches had a significant impact on recruiting. Perhaps what we really need is to change a few assistants, and keep our HC who has a tremendous reputation. But no one ever considers that.
In Schiano's best years, assistant coaches had a significant impact on recruiting. Perhaps what we really need is to change a few assistants, and keep our HC who has a tremendous reputation. But no one ever considers that.
