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OT: Dick Vitale Today

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Knightmoves

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my wife and I were having lunch in Bradenton, FL today and ran into Dickie V while he was raising funds at the restaurant for the Jimmy V Foundation. When I introduced my wife and I as RU grads and offered a donation for the foundation he opened up and spoke to us for awhile about a number of RU topics:

- he recently raised $2.3 M for the Jimmy V Foundation at his 10th annual fund raiser in Sarasota
- Said that he believes that Eddie Jordan will get MBB turned around
- said that he can't believe that RU is still struggling in MBB and that we should be a top program, but we have always set our sights too low. When he was hired by RU as our top recruiter he was given a list of names to recruit. He looked at the list and said " Do we want to be Lafayette ? I want to be Kentucky." I agreed and said that RU sets our sights too low, then we consistently underachieve. Said that when he was at Detroit he sold kids on the fact that Ford, GM and Chrysler were in town and that they would have name recognition with those companies for employment when their careers were over. He said that Rutgers has a lot to sell recruits in the NY area but fails to effectively deliver that message.
- he also spoke about Mike Dabney and that Mike has a son who is going to be a top player.
- He had nice words for Dick Lloyd who just retired from RU MBB radio operations

IMHO the biggest blunder RU has ever made in MBB was not hiring Vitale to be our HC when Dick Lloyd was shown the door after two seasons. Tom Young was an OK choice but Dickie V had already brought big time talent into RU when we were competing with the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world. Not surprising that it was Vitale's players who formed the nucleus of the 1976 FF team.
 
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Knightmoves said:
my wife and I were having lunch in Bradenton, FL today and ran into Dickie V while he was raising funds at the restaurant for the Jimmy V Foundation. When I introduced my wife and I as RU grads and offered a donation for the foundation he opened up and spoke to us for awhile about a number of RU topics:

- he recently raised $2.3 M for the Jimmy V Foundation at his 10th annual fund raiser in Sarasota
- Said that he believes that Eddie Jordan will get MBB turned around
- said that he can't believe that RU is still struggling in MBB and that we should be a top program, but we have always set our sights too low. When he was hired by RU as our top recruiter he was given a list of names to recruit. He looked at the list and said " Do we want to be Lafayette ? I want to be Kentucky." I agreed and said that RU sets our sights too low, then we consistently underachieve. Said that when he was at Detroit he sold kids on the fact that Ford, GM and Chrysler were in town and that they would have name recognition with those companies for employment when their careers were over. He said that Rutgers has a lot to sell recruits in the NY area but fails to effectively deliver that message.
- he also spoke about Mike Dabney and that Mike has a son who is going to be a top player.
- He had nice words for Dick Lloyd who just retired from RU MBB radio operations

IMHO the biggest blunder RU has ever made in MBB was not hiring Vitale to be our HC when Dick Lloyd was shown the door after two seasons. Tom Young was an OK choice but Dickie V had already brought big time talent into RU when we were competing with the Lehighs and Lafayettes of the world. Not surprising that it was Vitale's players who formed the nucleus of the 1976 FF team.
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Great post except for the last paragraph. Vitale was nowhere near ready to be a head coach, though he did want to be RU's - but he really did not have the resume for it at the time. I know Detroit did well under him, but in my opinion, Rutgers required and deserved an established head coach.

Tom Young was an exceptional head coach was tremendously successful as a Rutgers head coach. Young was not a great recruiter, true enough. But he did everything else as a coach very well, took RU to 5 or 6 NCAA's and multiple NIT's, took RU to a Final Four (and except for a rare coaching blunder in 1979 against St. Johns would almost certainly have gotten RU into THAT Final Four - to face Michigan State).

There is no way anyone can reasonably think Rutgers likely would have done better under Vitale than under Young. Possibly, but not likely.
 
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Jelly,

Thanks for the feedback but we can agree to disagree on this point. Tom Young was a good HC but he rode the coat tails of Vitales recruiting and then failed to continue the high end recruiting when he was on his own for a longer period of time.

I've met both Vitale and Tom Young in person. Who do you think was a better recruiter of talent and could better motivate top local players to come to RU ? IMO Vitale was unquestionably a much bigger influence on top level has players during that time. And he was dying to get the RU job when Lloyd was fired and I'm sure that Lloyd recommended him. Phil Sellers was probably before your time but he was far and away the most blue of the blue chip recruits ever to play for Rutgers. Would Tom Young have brought Sellers and Dabney to the Banks ?

You say that Vitale was not ready to be a HC when Lloyd left the program. Yet the Univ of Detroit hired him as HC at that time and he had success there before being hired by the Pistons in the NBA. The NBA game was not a fit for Vitale and he then went into broadcasting where he was a natural talent.

One final point. Some here say that Vitale doesn't like RU. I would dispute that. When he signed the book for my wife and I today he personalized a message to us on the inside cover and then wrote " Go Rutgers, baby !" followed by his signature.
 
Scarlet Knut said:
Wow! Can't understand people down playing what Tom Young did at RU.
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The problem with Young was that he took us from the great year in 75/76 into mediocrity in a mediocre league in seven years and then scooted out as we were headed down the tubes. And I hated that towel. BTW, who was that kid who was the fan favorite whom he would never play? Anybody remember that?
 
SkilletHead2 said:
The problem with Young was that he took us from the great year in 75/76 into mediocrity in a mediocre league in seven years and then scooted out as we were headed down the tubes. And I hated that towel. BTW, who was that kid who was the fan favorite whom he would never play? Anybody remember that?
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Young left RU out of frustration with the Admin's refusal/failure to join the rising Big East BB conference.
 
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Knightmoves said:
Jelly,

Thanks for the feedback but we can agree to disagree on this point. Tom Young was a good HC but he rode the coat tails of Vitales recruiting and then failed to continue the high end recruiting when he was on his own for a longer period of time.

I've met both Vitale and Tom Young in person. Who do you think was a better recruiter of talent and could better motivate top local players to come to RU ? IMO Vitale was unquestionably a much bigger influence on top level has players during that time. And he was dying to get the RU job when Lloyd was fired and I'm sure that Lloyd recommended him. Phil Sellers was probably before your time but he was far and away the most blue of the blue chip recruits ever to play for Rutgers. Would Tom Young have brought Sellers and Dabney to the Banks ?

You say that Vitale was not ready to be a HC when Lloyd left the program. Yet the Univ of Detroit hired him as HC at that time and he had success there before being hired by the Pistons in the NBA. The NBA game was not a fit for Vitale and he then went into broadcasting where he was a natural talent.

One final point. Some here say that Vitale doesn't like RU. I would dispute that. When he signed the book for my wife and I today he personalized a message to us on the inside cover and then wrote " Go Rutgers, baby !" followed by his signature.
Click to expand...

Young had plenty of fine players he recruited and developed on his own. Mike Dabney and Sellers were Vitale recruits. Eddie Jordan, Copeland and Bailey were all Young recruits. Hinson, Battle, Ellerbee, Abdel Anderson, Kelvin Troy, Kevin Black (I think), Eric Riggins (though only a sophomore when Young left), and a few other really good players were all Young recruits.

To say Young road the coat-tails of Vitale's recruiting is ridiculous beyond belief, as even the core of his 1st 3 teams only had 2 Vitale stars on them. Young's players were huge reasons even the 1975-76 team was so good. Sure, Sellers was the best player, and Dabney was the 2nd best player (both Seniors). But Eddie Jordan was the best PG RU ever had - a Young player. Copeland was one of RU's top 10-15 players ever - a Young player. Bailey was one of RU's top 3 EVER players (along with Lloyd and Sellers) - a Young player (and a Young specialty as a developed player). Hinson and Battle were both players Young developed into NBA players.

Frankly, though recruiting is much more important now, back then COACHING and developing players was the really big deal. And Young was a masterful developer of players. Vitale was mainly a recruiter, and a MUCH less accomplished developer of players. Frankly, there is not even a debate about the accuracy of that statement of their relative skills.

Of course we can agree to disagree, but really, very few people thought all that much of Vitale as an actual coach, his hire by the NBA Piston notwithstanding (and most people at the time thought the Pistons screwed up majorly by hiring Vitale, believing - accurately as it turns out - that he just was not that good a coach, was not seasoned enough ... Vitale was a "local" hire ... hired because the Pistons were looking for local popularity).

Vitale did find his level of brilliance: As a color commentator and college basketball cheerleader, for a fledgling, start-up cable channel that no one thought would succeed. And the fact ESPN DID succeed ... well a lot of that credit has to go to Vitale, for popularizing college basketball broadcasts with his energy and personality.
 
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Thanks Jelly. Young developed players like Hinson and Battle who were not heavily recruited.
 
Tom Young fell one win short of averaging 20 wins per year for 12 years. Dickie V would have burned out long before then. I remember Home News articles from his time at Detroit (both U and Pistons, as the paper loved to keep track of him) and the word "volatile" ALWAYS preceded his name.

Young was no recruiter, that's true. But he could spot guys that others missed, or guys that needed developing (especially Hinson). And he came up with some junk defenses that really worked against some big-name foes.

One other thing about Young -- he won with a fast-paced team that ran you off the floor, and got back in the NCAAs SEVEN YEARS LATER (still riding Vitale's coattails, I assume) with a patient, deliberate team. That says something.

And although he was not an awesome recruiter, his last solid class was 1979 -- the first year of the Big East. Coincidence? I think not, and he knew it.
 
Roy Hinson was a very good basketball player his freshman year at RU. Same thing with many of the other guys listed.

I thought Young was a pretty good game coach. I think that was his strength.

Young's record was good overall, but against consistently weak opposition during the regular season. SOS during the Young years was pathetic. Most critically though, he took a team that was really on the rise (and yes, primarily due to two players who he did not recruit), and gradually took it back down to mediocrity.

I cannot stand Vitale as a broadcaster, but to say he couldn't coach isn't fair. He was 79-30 at University of Detroit/Mercy, with a tougher SOS than Young had in three of those four years. Took them to the NCAAs in his final year and turned over a club with a bunch of talent to his successor.

And when they left, Vitale went to the Detroit Pistons and Young went to Old Dominion. Neither did very well.
 
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Vitale rode the back of one Les Cason from his HS coaching if to RU. Sad that Les died penniless with AIDS.
 
The big east killed tom young recruiting

Threw in the towel when Charles Davis...who tom thought he has signed sealed and delivered...went to Pitt

He knew then he could never recruit against the big east
 
Chalk up the down years that some feel Rutgers had to our then AD. Tom was a solid cosch but not getting in to the BE and the lack of commitment therein was Tom's signal to leave. A great guy just like Dick Vitale who would love to see Rutgers back on track with Eddie Jordan at the helm. Good summary as usual by Jellyman. And can't say enough good things about Vitale and his work for and with the Jimmy V Foundation.

Tom is still alive and well living and playing golf in Florida. Occasionally will see his top assistant and another first class person, Joe Boylan, at a Rutgers football game or event. Always a pleasure to see and reminisce with Joe.
 
The "Tom left because of lack of support" argument ignores the fact that we made it to the final four while playing in the College Ave gym, and that the RAC was built in 1977, in the middle of Young's reign. Had we been killing it in the EAA and the A-10, I could understand this argument, but when Young left, we were a middle of the pack A-10 team. And when we did get to the Big East, did all of a sudden we get an influx of incredible talent, or did we simply start losing to tougher teams?

The sad part is that Young may have been the best basketball coach we ever had, but a lot of rose coloured lenses going on here.
 
jellyman said:
Young had plenty of fine players he recruited and developed on his own. Mike Dabney and Sellers were Vitale recruits. Eddie Jordan, Copeland and Bailey were all Young recruits. Hinson, Battle, Ellerbee, Abdel Anderson, Kelvin Troy, Kevin Black (I think), Eric Riggins (though only a sophomore when Young left), and a few other really good players were all Young recruits.

To say Young road the coat-tails of Vitale's recruiting is ridiculous beyond belief, as even the core of his 1st 3 teams only had 2 Vitale stars on them. Young's players were huge reasons even the 1975-76 team was so good. Sure, Sellers was the best player, and Dabney was the 2nd best player (both Seniors). But Eddie Jordan was the best PG RU ever had - a Young player. Copeland was one of RU's top 10-15 players ever - a Young player. Bailey was one of RU's top 3 EVER players (along with Lloyd and Sellers) - a Young player (and a Young specialty as a developed player). Hinson and Battle were both players Young developed into NBA players.

Of course we can agree to disagree, but really, very few people thought all that much of Vitale as an actual coach, his hire by the NBA Piston notwithstanding (and most people at the time thought the Pistons screwed up majorly by hiring Vitale, believing - accurately as it turns out - that he just was not that good a coach, was not seasoned enough ... Vitale was a "local" hire ... hired because the Pistons were looking for local popularity).
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jelly,

It's clear that you like Tom Young and don't like Vitale.
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jellyman said:
Young had plenty of fine players he recruited and developed on his own. Mike Dabney and Sellers were Vitale recruits. Eddie Jordan, Copeland and Bailey were all Young recruits. Hinson, Battle, Ellerbee, Abdel Anderson, Kelvin Troy, Kevin Black (I think), Eric Riggins (though only a sophomore when Young left), and a few other really good players were all Young recruits.

To say Young road the coat-tails of Vitale's recruiting is ridiculous beyond belief, as even the core of his 1st 3 teams only had 2 Vitale stars on them. Young's players were huge reasons even the 1975-76 team was so good. Sure, Sellers was the best player, and Dabney was the 2nd best player (both Seniors). But Eddie Jordan was the best PG RU ever had - a Young player. Copeland was one of RU's top 10-15 players ever - a Young player. Bailey was one of RU's top 3 EVER players (along with Lloyd and Sellers) - a Young player (and a Young specialty as a developed player). Hinson and Battle were both players Young developed into NBA players.

Frankly, though recruiting is much more important now, back then COACHING and developing players was the really big deal. And Young was a masterful developer of players. Vitale was mainly a recruiter, and a MUCH less accomplished developer of players. Frankly, there is not even a debate about the accuracy of that statement of their relative skills.

Of course we can agree to disagree, but really, very few people thought all that much of Vitale as an actual coach, his hire by the NBA Piston notwithstanding (and most people at the time thought the Pistons screwed up majorly by hiring Vitale, believing - accurately as it turns out - that he just was not that good a coach, was not seasoned enough ... Vitale was a "local" hire ... hired because the Pistons were looking for local popularity).

Vitale did find his level of brilliance: As a color commentator and college basketball cheerleader, for a fledgling, start-up cable channel that no one thought would succeed. And the fact ESPN DID succeed ... well a lot of that credit has to go to Vitale, for popularizing college basketball broadcasts with his energy and personality.
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Jelly,

It's clear that you like Tom Young and don't like Vitale. But to claim that he wasn't ready to be a HC at RU when he proceeded to coach Detroit to a 78-30 record and a NCAA Sweet Sixteen berth followed by getting an NBA job with the Pistons ?

And the list of RU players you mentioned that Young recruited was accomplished over a 12 year period while Vitale got Sellers and Dabney during only 2 seasons at RU. Without Sellers and Dabney there would have been no Final Four appearance by RU. My opinion is that if RU hired Vitale that he would have stockpiled more Sellers/Dabney type players every year and that the 75-76 team may have been even more talented than Young's team. Vitale recruited the top players in the NY area. The fact that Phil Sellers decommitted from Notre Dame to choose RU was because he wanted to play for Dick Vitale, not because he wanted to be a Scarlet Knight.

We will never know how Vitale would have done as HC at RU. But his body of work in 2 years on the banks followed by his later coaching record suggests that he was a better hire than a guy that ended up .500 at Old Dominion after ultimately failing at RU.
 
Knightmoves,

For you to say "ultimately failing" at RU about Tom Young, might be the dumbest comment that has ever been made on these boards in a long time.

Best of Luck,
Groz
 
Met him a few times at South Bend-----always struck me as a good guy but man he never stops working the room .
 
Groz said:
Knightmoves,

For you to say "ultimately failing" at RU about Tom Young, might be the dumbest comment that has ever been made on these boards in a long time.

Best of Luck,
Groz
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I dunno ... I mean Young's last 2 seasons' records at RU were only a couple games over .500 each year - as his WORST seasons. He only made the NCAA's 4 times and the NIT's 4 times in his 1st 9 years at RU.

I think RU basketball NOW could use some failure like that, eh?

The turning point for Young, who was NOT a great recruiter, I agree, was RU not accepting the invitation into the Big East. Prior to that Young had created a program that WAS the strongest NY Metropolitan area basketball program - and there was not much debate about that. Sure, Carnesseca got more media attention, and Syracuse was really outstanding also. But RU regularly beat those teams.

And though Young was not a great recruiter, he was able to draw enough talented players to build a winning program around HIS terrific coaching ability. Few coaches could develop players as well as Young, whose preferred coaching style was to find a single player around which he could build a team ... He basically started developing that player as a Freshman or Sophomore, so he could center the team on this player for that player's Junior and Senior season ... and then gathered and developed talent around that player to complement that player. He did this at American with Kermit Washington, at ODU with Kenny Gattison - and started to with Chris Gatling. And at RU he did it with Sellers (yes, Sellers was amazing, even as a Freshman, the year before Young was his coach), then Bailey, then Hinson, then Kelvin Troy, then Battle.

But the writing was on the wall, as basketball became a much larger media circus, and finding under-the-radar players became more difficult ... and losing Charles Smith to Pitt was a KILLER for Young, and I think he lost heart and energy when Smith ended up at Pitt, when everyone thought RU had him tied up. When they got Smith over RU IN THEIR FIRST YEAR IN THE BIG EAST, Young just lost it, I think. And 2 years later left RU.
 
trying to find info on Dabney's son but did see that UConn great Maya Moore is his daughter.
 
To say Vitale road the back of Les Cason in high school is a little too simplistic. Yes, with him the team went to the state championship finals in Les' freshman, junior and senior years. However, Vitale was very successful prior to Les as well.
 
RUfinal4 said:
trying to find info on Dabney's son but did see that UConn great Maya Moore is his daughter.
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Wow. I missed that but just found the 2008 nj.com article on it. I wonder if she would've come here if he was involved in her life prior to senior year of high school. Another tough luck story for us.
 
Scarlet Shack said:
The big east killed tom young recruiting

Threw in the towel when Charles Davis...who tom thought he has signed sealed and delivered...went to Pitt

He knew then he could never recruit against the big east
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Yep. That was the last straw. There was a big buildup regarding Smith's recruitment. I can still remember listening to the 5 o'clock sports report on WCTC the day Smith announced he was attending Pitt, not Rutgers. It was the first time in my life I spent any time paying attention to recruiting. I remember being so disappointed. From that point on, Pitt started its climb to being a national power... and Rutgers started its descent.
 
RUfinal4 said:
trying to find info on Dabney's son but did see that UConn great Maya Moore is his daughter.
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Vitale mentioned the name Maya Moore as Dabney's daughter at UCONN before saying that Mike told him that his youngest is an even better player. I got the sense that the kid is his son.

Let me wrap up the Tom Young part of this with the reason I turned against him as the RU HC. I was a Tom Young fan until the 76 final four when we lost to Michigan in a game that wasn't that close. Michigan was too physical for us and we couldn't stop their running game. Their forward playing Sellers was pretty physical and Phil didn't have a good game that night. It all kind of snowballed on us and the game was decided early against RU.

After the game I would have expected the RU HC to offer support for his players that went 31-0 for him, including a number of close wins, before losing in the NCAA semis. But no, Tom Young wouldnt do that.

His post game comments that really pissed me off at the time after our first loss of the season after 31 straight wins:

- "We're really embarrassed"
- " We stunk up the joint"
- " I feel badly for Eastern Basketball"

How about thanking your team and fans for RU's greatest season ever, along with crediting your opponent for a great game plan and execution ? But no, Tom Young wouldn't do that. He lost my support right there after I was a big TY fan. When he got canned by Old Dominion I felt no sympathy for him.
 
What Vitale MIGHT have been able to do that Young could not was to talk Grunninger into supporting a move to the Big East conference when we were first offered. This IMO by far was the worst thing ever that plagued RU athletics. Per my uncle, a former CC referee and card playing partner of Tom Young, Young hated Grunninger mainly because Grunninger refused to support the move.
 
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Knightmoves said:
Vitale mentioned the name Maya Moore as Dabney's daughter at UCONN before saying that Mike told him that his youngest is an even better player. I got the sense that the kid is his son.

Let me wrap up the Tom Young part of this with the reason I turned against him as the RU HC. I was a Tom Young fan until the 76 final four when we lost to Michigan in a game that wasn't that close. Michigan was too physical for us and we couldn't stop their running game. Their forward playing Sellers was pretty physical and Phil didn't have a good game that night. It all kind of snowballed on us and the game was decided early against RU.

After the game I would have expected the RU HC to offer support for his players that went 31-0 for him, including a number of close wins, before losing in the NCAA semis. But no, Tom Young wouldnt do that.

His post game comments that really pissed me off at the time after our first loss of the season after 31 straight wins:

- "We're really embarrassed"
- " We stunk up the joint"
- " I feel badly for Eastern Basketball"

How about thanking your team and fans for RU's greatest season ever, along with crediting your opponent for a great game plan and execution ? But no, Tom Young wouldn't do that. He lost my support right there after I was a big TY fan. When he got canned by Old Dominion I felt no sympathy for him.
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Maybe ... But Phil Sellers also said the exact same things, especially that her personally stunk up the joint and embarrassed his team.

Hubbard badly outplayed Sellers in that game - though Sellers was the much better college player, generally. And Jordan, for the 1st time in his career, met a PG as quick or quicker than he was: Rickey Green. Hubbard out physicalled Sellers (who had always been the most physical player in any game. And Green out-quicked Jordan, as UM beat RU at its own game.

Fine, I get that you decided not to like Young. Even so, his accomplishments for RU were outstanding, especially in his 1st 9 years, and any comment indicating Vitale would have done better is pure speculation based on no actual evidence - since achieving in a span of 9 years 4 NCAA's, 4 NIT's and an NCAA Final Four and an NIT Final Four are pretty impressive.
 
I can't believe people didn't know that Maya Moore is Dabney's daughter. He has another daughter who has accompanied him to many womens' games at the RAC - so let's hope she is as good as Maya and is interested in RU
 
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jellyman said:
Great post except for the last paragraph. Vitale was nowhere near ready to be a head coach, though he did want to be RU's - but he really did not have the resume for it at the time. I know Detroit did well under him, but in my opinion, Rutgers required and deserved an established head coach.

Tom Young was an exceptional head coach was tremendously successful as a Rutgers head coach. Young was not a great recruiter, true enough. But he did everything else as a coach very well, took RU to 5 or 6 NCAA's and multiple NIT's, took RU to a Final Four (and except for a rare coaching blunder in 1979 against St. Johns would almost certainly have gotten RU into THAT Final Four - to face Michigan State).

There is no way anyone can reasonably think Rutgers likely would have done better under Vitale than under Young. Possibly, but not likely.
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Have to disagree with you jelly. I am a bit older than you and remember well what happend here. Rutgers was not going to hire a flamboyant ethnic Italian like Vitale. that was an explicit part of the decision making.

Young coached that 75-76 team to perfection, figuratively, and until the final 4, literally. No one including TY handled the semi-final game well. Consolation game was well playe dand well coached.

Young kept us out of the FF in 79 with the infamous stall against SJU in Greensboro.

He ruined Rodney Duncan and Todd Milligan, our only 2 recruits post the FF year. And he was a much better bench coach when he had Johnny McFadden as an assistant (at the time RU's all time leader in assists who at one time had more collegiate assists in one game than anyone else in MSG history!) than when he did not. His game day coaching suffered mightily when McFadden left for Xerox.

Young did many good things here, but was the safe choice, limited in part as a product of his time and his geographical roots. He left past when it was time for him to go. The next hire should have been Valvano, from Bucknell or Iona, can't recall when that switch occurred, but well before he was at NCSU! Would have been a Karmic choce as well as as teh right basketball choice.

Young was a good choice, but he was not the better choice at the time and RU knew that to be true from a basketball perspective. There were other things that were more important to those doing the hiring.

Loyal

Edit: PS The national semifianl game had RU missing layup after layup or they would have been in front by 15-20 inteh first 10 minutes. And they got frustrated. Hte iability to stop the frustration iis on the coach. the missed layins on the players. Had the dunk been legal, RU would havevwon that game.
 
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jellyman said:
Great post except for the last paragraph. Vitale was nowhere near ready to be a head coach, though he did want to be RU's - but he really did not have the resume for it at the time. I know Detroit did well under him, but in my opinion, Rutgers required and deserved an established head coach.

Tom Young was an exceptional head coach was tremendously successful as a Rutgers head coach. Young was not a great recruiter, true enough. But he did everything else as a coach very well, took RU to 5 or 6 NCAA's and multiple NIT's, took RU to a Final Four (and except for a rare coaching blunder in 1979 against St. Johns would almost certainly have gotten RU into THAT Final Four - to face Michigan State).

There is no way anyone can reasonably think Rutgers likely would have done better under Vitale than under Young. Possibly, but not likely.
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Jelly

Please elaborate on the St. John's fiasco. What happened? What was the setup / what did Young do that cost us another final 4?

Thanks

MO
 
Loyal_2RU said:
Have to disagree with you jelly. I am a bit older than you and remember well what happend here. Rutgers was not going to hire a flamboyant ethnic Italian like Vitale. that was an explicit part of the decision making.

Young coached that 75-76 team to perfection, figuratively, and until the final 4, literally. No one including TY handled the semi-final game well. Consolation game was well playe dand well coached.

Young kept us out of the FF in 79 with the infamous stall against SJU in Greensboro.

He ruined Rodney Duncan and Todd Milligan, our only 2 recruits post the FF year. And he was a much better bench coach when he had Johnny McFadden as an assistant (at the time RU's all time leader in assists who at one time had more collegiate assists in one game than anyone else in MSG history!) than when he did not. His game day coaching suffered mightily when McFadden left for Xerox.

Young did many good things here, but was the safe choice, limited in part as a product of his time and his geographical roots. He left past when it was time for him to go. The next hire should have been Valvano, from Bucknell or Iona, can't recall when that switch occurred, but well before he was at NCSU! Would have been a Karmic choce as well as as teh right basketball choice.

Young was a good choice, but he was not the better choice at the time and RU knew that to be true from a basketball perspective. There were other things that were more important to those doing the hiring.

Loyal

Edit: PS The national semifianl game had RU missing layup after layup or they would have been in front by 15-20 inteh first 10 minutes. And they got frustrated. Hte iability to stop the frustration iis on the coach. the missed layins on the players. Had the dunk been legal, RU would havevwon that game.
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Tom Young's last season at Rutgers was 1984-85. Jim Valvano's first season at NC State was 1980-81, so in fact Young was still at Rutgers when Valvano's NC State team won the NCAA's in 1983.
 
rutger80 said:
Tom Young's last season at Rutgers was 1984-85. Jim Valvano's first season at NC State was 1980-81, so in fact Young was still at Rutgers when Valvano's NC State team won the NCAA's in 1983.
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Thanks for adding the dates. In case I was not clear initially, my feeling was that we should have brought Valvano here several years earlier.

As noted, Young accomplished much at RU and I appreciate all he did. I think the handwriting re his limitations as a coach was visible before the string played out...
 
The biggest thing I take away from this post is the continuing lack of administrative support to elevate the sports programs AND we still recruit like we are playing the Ivies. When you look at how all of our teams faired against the BIG this year, it speaks volumes.
 
RutgersMO said:
Jelly

Please elaborate on the St. John's fiasco. What happened? What was the setup / what did Young do that cost us another final 4?

Thanks

MO
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The 1979 fiasco was as follows: RU owned St. Johns that year. St. Johns' best player was their center, McKoy, who was a fine player. But James Bailey simply owned McKoy (as he pretty much owned any match-up his last 3 seasons at RU). RU was up about 9 points with 11 minutes to go - or something like that. McKoy picked up his 4th foul, and had to go to the bench. Instead of putting the pedal to the metal, and kicking St. Johns while they were down 9, and without their best player, Tom Young inexplicably had RU kill clock, slowing the game down ... with 11 minutes to go. And the RU players handled it badly, and let St. Johns actually close the gap to about 3-4 points with about 3-4 minutes to go ... until McKoy was able to come back into the game. By then St. Johns had all the momentum, and RU folded, to lose a close game.

Though Penn was the miracle team that year, and beat St. Johns in the next game to make the Final Four (and earned the right to face Michigan State and Magic Johnson), I believe there is no way Penn would have beaten RU - RU was a much worse MATCH UP for Penn than was St. Johns. RU would have been able to control Penn's best player, Tony Price, through a combination fo Anderson and Troy, both simply outstanding defensive players.

And then you would have had a Rutgers-MSU match-up, with 2 1st team All American players facing off in Bailey and Magic (though Abdel Anderson would have covered Magic, not Bailey). I do not think RU would have beaten MSU, but it would have been a much better match up than MSU-Penn. Many people have forgotten that RU BEAT Indiana State in the NIT the prior year, when Bird was a Junior ... Indiana St. was essentially a 2-person team: Bird and Nicks. RU beat them by putting Anderson on Bird, without help, and shutting down EVERY OTHER PLAYER ... Bird scored something like 33 points, though he had to work for it. RU won.
 
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