I have not read WOT. Actually, haven't heard of it until this thread. What is it I'm missing? I did a quick wiki look and noticed the author changed the previously scheduled six books plan and released about a billion more books before dying and instructing another author to finish.
OT - Game of Thrones - Just passed the books (spoilers)
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I have not read WOT. Actually, haven't heard of it until this thread. What is it I'm missing? I did a quick wiki look and noticed the author changed the previously scheduled six books plan and released about a billion more books before dying and instructing another author to finish.
The Wheel of Time is a cautionary tale of letting a story/world get out of control. The first three books of the series are as good as fantasy gets, and I mean that. Every bit as good as Tolkien and GRRM. They had plenty of world building but still focused on the overall point of the individual books and series. They also came out every 18 months or so. And the author promised the series would be a total of 6 books.
Books 4-6 were also very, very good, but the scope started to broaden and the books became enormous. Starting with Book 7, set-up, tangents, and new minor characters started to dominant the content of books and the time between publications grew to 2-3 years. Little meaningful happened in Books 7-11, it was set-up after set-up after set-up. The low point was book 10, where honestly, nothing happened, nothing. You could have skipped this book and it wouldn't have mattered.
Robert Jordan passed away after book 11 and the series got so bogged down in minor story lines and characters it became a mess beyond words. Even with giving the new author 3 books to wrap up the series it still seemed like a rush. The conclusion was satisfying to most fans, but it also highlighted that 70-80% of content after Book 6 was unnecessary and pointless.
Stories and characters need to progress to an ending, whatever the ending is. For GRRM, it's Dany's invasion of Westeros and climactic battle with the While Walkers and her dragons. Are some side stories important and needed, of course. But when entire novels contain a majority of this stuff, the overall plot gets stuck in the mud.
I am nervous that GRRM is starting to fall victim of this.
I am about half way through Book 14 (last one) of WOT. Much of what you say here is true and while I have really enjoyed the series in totality - there were periods of the series where I wanted to slit my wrists because I didn't know where it was going or who the characters even were he was spending 50 pages on. In some sense it was getting smothered by its ambition. Nevertheless, I have stuck with it and am enjoying the concluding book. I have enjoyed Game of Thrones more though. Book 3 of GOT is literally one of the best fantasy books I've ever read. Crows was very disappointing in comparison. I appreciate what these authors are building and writing though. Jordan was spitting out books too quickly in my opinion and Martin is just the opposite.
I'm not sure I agree that the obvious ending of GoT is Dany invading and battling White Walkers in Westeros. There are many different directions it can go and the complicated plot lines are what makes it all so entertaining. No one that read the books expected Ned Stark to be beheaded 3/4 of the way through Book 1, or for the Red Wedding. The beauty and interest of it is it can go anywhere and anyone that thinks he knows the obvious ending is being presumptuous.
Agree with Crazed above regarding the uncertainty of the ending. I feel like Dany could possibly end up being a primary end-game antagonist, and Bran is a major wild card.
I admit I do not have an inkling of what Bran's tangible effect on the plot will be. However, my sincerest hope is that his ability translates to GRRM being able to write Bran POV chapters through the eyes of either current characters past experiences or historical characters POV during historical events ie Rhaegar or Robert during the battle of the Trident. Can you imagine the possibilities???
Best thoughts on the subject I found on the net...
2 Rickon theories:
1. That Rickon's story will eventually go nowhere and be a "shaggydog" story, which is "hinted" by the name of his direwolf. I don't really buy this; I don't think GRRM would be so heavy-handed and clunky with the clue.
2. That Rickon will end up as the "last Stark standing" (in the male line) and end up being the one to rebuild the house. It's been observed that, not counting Jon, there are seven Starks and each of them represents a different facet of the Seven. Ned is the Father, Catelyn is the Mother, Robb is the Warrior, Sansa is the Maid, Bran is the Crone, Arya is the Stranger and Rickon is the Smith. So Rickon, as the Smith, could "reforge" the house.
In the near-term, it looks like Davos will be going to Skagos to retrieve Osha, Rickon and Shaggydog. This is in the books; the show may go in a different direction entirely. Now, Davos is under the impression that Osha and Rickon made it to Skagos on their own and Manderly found out about it but needs them retrieved. I think that Manderly actually sent them there and now that the Boltons and Stannis have made their moves, needs to bring them back but needs a sailor to do it because the weather is so much worse now.
Skagos is interesting because 1. its society is a lot like the wildlings, from what we're told and 2. they've stayed entirely out of the war up to this point. We know anecdotally that the wildlings revere wargs; it's possible that the Skagosi end up honoring or following Rickon, a warg with a giant black direwolf. If they do pay homage to him in some way, that is potentially a decent number of warriors who could be added to the Stark cause. We know from the World book that Skagos, like Dragonstone, produces obsidian, which is the only substance that we know can kill Others. So Skagos might have a role to play there, too, given the resources it has.
The WW killed him. But perhaps we will show up as one of the walking dead soldiers!
There has already been strong speculation that Dany, Jon Snow, and Bran will ride/control the 3 dragons during the battle with the White Walkers. I believe Dany and Jon are definites due to being Targaryen. I'm iffy with Bran, but perhaps his powers are all that are needed.
There's a theory among fans that Jon is actually the illegitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark, taken and raised by Ned after the death of both. There's no actual support for that theory anywhere in the texts or in the series.
What we do know is that there are two different accounts of who Jon's mother is, both rumored. Cersei Lannister and Catelyn Stark believed that it was Ashara Dayne, while Edric Dayne told Arya Stark that Jon was born of a low-born woman named Wylla, who as Edric's wet nurse. His comment to Arya was that he and Jon were "milk brothers".
Here is a good summary of the theory that Jon is part Targaryen:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...a_targaryen_and_the_prophesied_azor_ahai.html
And most GRRM "experts" don't even believe this is a theory, but rather a fact. So the overall theory goes, there will be three characters with Targaryen blood that will unite, ride the dragons, and defeat the white walkers.
I do not want to read that link but I do like the theory. Hmm.. that means the "honorable".. in quotes.. Eddard Stark really really was honorable and never had a child with that wench that King Robert Barratheon mentioned. Eddard had to keep it a secret from his best friend, who would have killed him. And Jon's relationship with the Targaryen maester at the Wall would have had some very cool undertones. But why would Eddard keep it from his wife? He wanted his wife's anger and cold distance from Jon to provide cover?
Yeah.. I really like this idea and cannot believe I had not considered it myself. Thanks for sharing. I suppose, being Targaryens, Jon can end up marrying Dany.
GRRM has gone on record to say that the three heads of the Dragon DO NOT have to be Targaryens.
Bran might end up being the most powerful of his kind and can shift into one of the dragons and mind control it. Thus "riding" it that way. If he has full control over one then anyone else can ride it at that point... even a dwarf?
As far as the Others go.... On the TV show they have shown 4 different types (they are called the White Walkers on the show, not in the books.) Mindless zombies, the smart ones that ride the dead horses, and the leaders that wear black armor (closest thing to the Others on the show). the 4th refers to the horses and other dead monsters.
However, please note that the Others may not be pure evil. GRRM doesn't like pure evil or pure good characters. Coldhands was clearly a good guy and yet most likely one of the others. He was cut from the show.
I have my own ideas on how it is going to end.
Bran might end up being the most powerful of his kind and can shift into one of the dragons and mind control it. Thus "riding" it that way. If he has full control over one then anyone else can ride it at that point... even a dwarf?
As far as the Others go.... On the TV show they have shown 4 different types (they are called the White Walkers on the show, not in the books.) Mindless zombies, the smart ones that ride the dead horses, and the leaders that wear black armor (closest thing to the Others on the show). the 4th refers to the horses and other dead monsters.
However, please note that the Others may not be pure evil. GRRM doesn't like pure evil or pure good characters. Coldhands was clearly a good guy and yet most likely one of the others. He was cut from the show.
I have my own ideas on how it is going to end.
I have no idea what the ending is, I just have my own theory, which may or may not happen.
Some fan theories are completely insane and have zero chance of being real and others sound really convincing! Jon's parents being the best example of one that is most likely true. The payoff will be when it is finally confirmed.
Some fan theories are completely insane and have zero chance of being real and others sound really convincing! Jon's parents being the best example of one that is most likely true. The payoff will be when it is finally confirmed.
As for endings.. my guess is the ending will just be a beginning. Or maybe GRRM will just have the world end in darkness. he does "play for keeps". I doubt the TV series would "go there".
**SEVERE SPOILER** below for those who haven't read the books
[edit: okay.. I had to watch that theory linked above... and I'll add my little twist... what if Lyanna Stark had twins and one of them is the Sand Snake Nymeria? Eddard might have been given the boy to raise because his existence would just complicate things in Dorne.. but a girl could be raised there. That would allow for the 3 siblings thing... as does sansa, bran, rickon, ary.. who doesn't really want to be come no one... controlling a dragon too.. I am still wondering when or if we will see the undead Catelyn Stark or if the TV show is just skipping over that]
**SEVERE SPOILER** below for those who haven't read the books
[edit: okay.. I had to watch that theory linked above... and I'll add my little twist... what if Lyanna Stark had twins and one of them is the Sand Snake Nymeria? Eddard might have been given the boy to raise because his existence would just complicate things in Dorne.. but a girl could be raised there. That would allow for the 3 siblings thing... as does sansa, bran, rickon, ary.. who doesn't really want to be come no one... controlling a dragon too.. I am still wondering when or if we will see the undead Catelyn Stark or if the TV show is just skipping over that]
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I wholeheartedly agree, and this is why I find it hard to imagine that the series is going to conclude with the "good guys" riding dragons and uniting to fight the Others. In keeping with the overall feel of the show, I believe the endgame will involve multiple competing interests and ambiguity as to the "good" and "evil" parties. If all of the characters currently being built up as good and powerful end up on the same side, who will be the compelling antagonists?
1) Why didn't the red woman offer to sacrifice the dying Targareon guy instead of the little grayscale girl, since he's even more royal blood than she is?
2) How were the Nights Watch able to burn the dead Targareon guy? Isn't the whole family legacy built on the fact that they're fireproof?
2) How were the Nights Watch able to burn the dead Targareon guy? Isn't the whole family legacy built on the fact that they're fireproof?
1) she thinks Stannis.. and the Barratheons are the only true kings.
2) Dany's brother burned. Apparently just being a Targaryan isn't enough.. you have to be a "dragon blood"... some sort of genetic variant in Targaryan blood?
Yes!
My goodness, actress Rosabell Laurenti Sellers is so incredibly sexy!
Those eyes... wow!
lol, not even close. Even the most die hard GOT fans that I know have hated this season so far.
According to GRRM, the Targaryan's are not fire proof. In fact it is custom to cremate them after they die.
The whole egg thing was a one time magical event. Dany is not immune to fire.
Also tonight ep was hands down the best of the season even if it had little to do with the books.
In the books that Sam was reading there was old tales that Dragon Steel was used to kill Others. It was theorized by the characters that Dragon Steel and Valerian Steel are in fact one and the same. In the TV Show this has been confirmed tonight, but not yet in the books.
Wow. Was not expecting that white walker battle - not even remotely. How cool was it when all the dead wildlings stood up to join the white walkers. I really didn't think we'd get to the point where the storyline is flying by the books - but I guess we are there. I wonder if Martin believes this will take some luster off the future books....
That's the fascinating thing, the TV show is breaking new ground. GRRM is on record saying that the TV series and novels will end in the same way. Maybe the paths are going to be different, but the conclusion isn't going to be.
btw, anyone else notice that one of the creepy kid zombies was the small girl from season 1 ep 1?
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no clue what you are talking... but I hear that new guy Ser Robert Strong is a mighty big fellow. As big as a mountain even :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
She walked in boiling water in the first episode. She walked out of the burning warlocks tower in the 2nd season.. I think it was the 2nd season.. more one-time magical events?
The disgraced maester said "the work continues".. referring to Zombie Mountain... oh.. you winked.. got it.
The water was hot but not boiling. Who doesn't like a hot bath?
Dragon fire is magical and not normal fire. They can burn her if they want to.
Her brother died from the heat of melted gold. His brain got fired.
One of the dragons gave her heat blisters just by breathing next to her (in the books).
She can die from fire, she is not fireproof 24/7.
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