OT: How far back can pseg back bill you?

[LevaosLectures]

Long story short, our home that we bought 16 months ago had no new remote meter. We signed up for pseg and have an account with them,and they were supposed to put a new meter in but never did. In addition no one ever read the old meter. We called three times or more in the first six months to say we had received no bill. We were told when we owed we would get a bill, period.

So we went about our business for the next year plus not getting any gas bills. I knew at some point there would be some kind of reckoning but I figured I'd let pseg figure it out.

Finally this summer a guy from pseg finally comes by to look at the meter. He is shocked that we have no new meter. He looks at the records and finds the house had been off the rolls or something (I forget his explanation). I explained to him that we had done everything we were supposed to do. He says it was their mistake and that we would hear something.

Now...legally, are there limits to how far back we can be billed? I had read one year in other places. The gentlemen told us the meter hadn't been read in several years (it was empty and a complete renovation before we moved in) so how could they even determine our usgae? Are they within their rights to charge us based on estimates back the full 16 months? Would we have any grounds to contest those estimates?

Finally, this is our first gas heated home in NJ. What is you typical monthly or annual gas cost so I might have some idea what to expect?

 

[ruready4somefootball]

`Under $50 in the warm months, anywhere from $150-250 in the cold months. This is for a 2000 square ft home.

 

[LevaosLectures]

`Under $50 in the warm months, anywhere from $150-250 in the cold months. This is for a 2000o, 3rd
square ft home.

So maybe 1200-1500 therabouts?

 

[RUScrew85]

You used the gas or electric, why not pay for it? (I think I know)

 

[LevaosLectures]

You used the gas or electric, why not pay for it? (I think I know)

How much did I use? I am going to be at the mercy of pseg estimates.

Anyway, I said clearly I expected to pay for it but I was asking if there were limits on back billing.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Also keep in mind we informed them of the poblem multiple times. There were no shenanigans going on. I didn't even realize we had an out dated meter.

Again, I expect a hefty bill, but I'm also interested in any limits on what pseg can charge me, especially when they have no way of determining my usage.

 

[bryanjints]

I'd fight paying anything. They have no record of any usage you've had. There is no meter that was installed in your name. They haven't been keeping track since before you moved. There's no way to know what was used before you moved in.

 

[RU'70]

We use gas only to heat the house and for hot water. We converted from oil several years ago and it was the best decision we ever made. For the 6 months we heat the house, we spend from a low of $ 75 to a high of $ 200. In the warm months we spend an average of $ 20 for hot water.

 

[RUScrew85]

They have the last reading from the previous owner. They have your current reading. Subtract. This isn't hard. Pay your bills.

 

[LevaosLectures]

They have the last reading from the previous owner. They have your current reading. Subtract. This isn't hard. Pay your bills.

The guy they sent over said the meter hadn't been read in several years. We've lived there for 16 months. As I said above. So it isn't so simple.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Ok so today we got a bill for $3000 for 4600 therms

Lol.

They estimate our meter reading at move in was 6772.

The last human reading was in June 2007. That reading: 6772.


Do you still think I should just pay my bill RUScrew85?

 

[RUfinal4]

I would contest it. Since the last real reading was 6772 in 2007 it can't be the same at your move in.

I would take today's reading minus 6772 and divide it by the amount of months in that period. Then multiply it by the 16 months you were in your house.

 

[Ole Cabbagehead]

They have the last reading from the previous owner. They have your current reading. Subtract. This isn't hard. Pay your bills.

But it sounds like that isn't what happened here. If he actually called and reported to them several times that no one had been out to give an initial reading at move in, I would fight the whole thing. That is ridiculous. I'm not sure what more you can do in a situation like that. Are you supposed to sue them to do a reading or put a new meter? Of course not. So now they want to recoup their own negligence by billing him for the entire period.

Ok so today we got a bill for $3000 for 4600 therms

Lol.

They estimate our meter reading at move in was 6772.

The last human reading was in June 2007. That reading: 6772.


Do you still think I should just pay my bill RUScrew85?

Your first step is obviously to plead your case to their customer service department. Let us know how you make out. The underlying problem here is that you have a proof issue. If they don't agree that it is their responsibility, they will just put you through to collections, which could hurt your credit rating, especially if you settle for less. You will really have to sue them. Your settlement from a lawsuit will likely be less because you never sent a letter telling them formally about the problem. All you are going to be able to say in court was that you called a few times, which they may dispute.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Also, quick question: it looks to me like the meter only has four digits and rolls over every ten thousand. Does that sound right for the old meters or am I missing something.

edit: yeah just confirmed the meter only has four dials. So, really, they have no earthly clue how much gas was used or what the meter said when we moved in. Unless there is something o the meter somewhere that records the rollovers.

 

[LevaosLectures]

waiting for a supervisor to call me back.

 

[patk89]

waiting for a supervisor to call me back.

How long was the renovation? Were people residing in the house from the last meter reading (June 2007) and the time you moved in? That is 8 years so it would be hard to believe any reno took that long. I have to think that they will adjust your bill once you explain to them that you have only lived there 16 months (April 2014 or so so there is an almost 7 year gap between the last reading and when you arrived in the house).

 

[mdk01]

If you don't have it readily available, get a copy of your closing statement to verify the date you moved into the house. Actually, this probably should have been discussed with the prior owner at your closing, but that's water under the bridge. Also, $3000 for 8 years is an absurdly low amount. Was the gas shut off during part ort all of that period.

 

[Upstream]

I would contest it. Since the last real reading was 6772 in 2007 it can't be the same at your move in.

I would take today's reading minus 6772 and divide it by the amount of months in that period. Then multiply it by the 16 months you were in your house.

Assuming the house wasn't vacant for any extended period since 2007, that is a reasonable approach. Alternatively, you could agree to pay an estimated bill, and then adjust it in a year once PSEG has a year's worth of meter readings from you and can see what your true seasonal usage is.


When we moved into our home, which was new construction, our initial PSEG bill was something absurd because PSEG never read the meter when we moved in, and assumed that the original meter reading was zero. But the builder had electric and gas hooked up months before we moved in, and the builder used the electric and gas. We weren't liable for that usage, because we did not own the house. PSEG allowed us to estimate our usage for the disputed month by assuming it was the same as our usage for the following month. Of course our case was much simpler than LL's since we only had one month of disputed charges, not 16 months.

 

[RUScrew85]

Ok so today we got a bill for $3000 for 4600 therms

Lol.

They estimate our meter reading at move in was 6772.

The last human reading was in June 2007. That reading: 6772.


Do you still think I should just pay my bill RUScrew85?

Well while it's wonderful to hear about your tedious household issues. Yes you should pay your bill - even if it FEELS unfair.

I expect you will do whatever you can to pay the minimum - not the fair amount - pretty obvious that you were hoping to slide through with free service since you didn't get bills for sixteen months and only made three calls. No surprise based on what I've learned about you in your short time here. Now after getting free service for 16 months you want a break on the bill you're getting. FSA.

 

[LevaosLectures]

You're demented. I don't want a break on anything.

You think I used 4600 therms in one winter?

 

[LevaosLectures]

How long was the renovation? Were people residing in the house from the last meter reading (June 2007) and the time you moved in? That is 8 years so it would be hard to believe any reno took that long. I have to think that they will adjust your bill once you explain to them that you have only lived there 16 months (April 2014 or so so there is an almost 7 year gap between the last reading and when you arrived in the house).

Yes, the house was only unoccupied for about a year 2012-2013. The flippers started showing it winter 2013 and obviously were heating the house to some degree at that time.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

In addition to some of the approaches already given, I would be inclined to give my attorney a call and ask him or her what they were doing, exactly, during the closing process?

While your attorney is not technically responsible to transfer service, mine has always provided me with a checklist of things to look into to make sure there were no surprises. Clean utilities accounts is item # 1.

ETA: I'd be hesitant to pay them upfront with the idea that you will use the next 12-16 months worth of usage to then true it up. I don't have that sort of trust in PSE&G's customer service department. BUt that's just me...

 

[LevaosLectures]

In addition to some of the approaches already given, I would be inclined to give my attorney a call and ask him or her what they were doing, exactly, during the closing process?

While your attorney is not technically responsible to transfer service, mine has always provided me with a checklist of things to look into to make sure there were no surprises. Clean utilities accounts is item # 1.

We did transfer the service the week we moved in. There were no outstanding bills..

Honestly I think they haven't billed anyone at this address in 8 years for some reason.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

We did transfer the service the week we moved in. There were no outstanding bills..

Honestly I think they haven't billed anyone at this address in 8 years for some reason.

Oh, I misread then. Yeah, I'd be inclined to not pay them a dime based on the idea that any bill they come up with has no basis in actual usage. Simultaneously, I would ask your attorney for his or her advice on how to proceed.

And this is a perfect example of why I never set utilities bills up for auto-payment. lol

 

[beaced]

Long story short, our home that we bought 16 months ago had no new remote meter. We signed up for pseg and have an account with them,and they were supposed to put a new meter in but never did. In addition no one ever read the old meter. We called three times or more in the first six months to say we had received no bill. We were told when we owed we would get a bill, period.

So we went about our business for the next year plus not getting any gas bills. I knew at some point there would be some kind of reckoning but I figured I'd let pseg figure it out.

Finally this summer a guy from pseg finally comes by to look at the meter. He is shocked that we have no new meter. He looks at the records and finds the house had been off the rolls or something (I forget his explanation). I explained to him that we had done everything we were supposed to do. He says it was their mistake and that we would hear something.

Now...legally, are there limits to how far back we can be billed? I had read one year in other places. The gentlemen told us the meter hadn't been read in several years (it was empty and a complete renovation before we moved in) so how could they even determine our usgae? Are they within their rights to charge us based on estimates back the full 16 months? Would we have any grounds to contest those estimates?

Finally, this is our first gas heated home in NJ. What is you typical monthly or annual gas cost so I might have some idea what to expect?[/QUOTE

 

[LevaosLectures]

If you don't have it readily available, get a copy of your closing statement to verify the date you moved into the house. Actually, this probably should have been discussed with the prior owner at your closing, but that's water under the bridge. Also, $3000 for 8 years is an absurdly low amount. Was the gas shut off during part ort all of that period.

Agree, but remember the meter rolls over after 9999. They are counting this as 4600 some odd therms for 6772 to my reading of 1387. But after 8 years It could be that it's gone through an entire cycle or even two since the last reading.

 

[RUScrew85]

You're demented. I don't want a break on anything.

You think I used 4600 therms in one winter?

So you have no problem living with free utilities for 16 months but you want to be sure you're billed accurately now? You didn't seem too concerned about accuracy for the first 16 months.

I'll bet your lawyer mentions theft of services to you. Three calls may not get you off the hook.

 

[derleider]

So you have no problem living with free utilities for 16 months but you want to be sure you're billed accurately now? You didn't seem too concerned about accuracy for the first 16 months.

I'll bet your lawyer mentions theft of services to you. Three calls may not get you off the hook.

What about this story makes you think he was unconcerned? The fact that he called repeatedly to get them to fix the problem and bill him?

 

[LevaosLectures]

So you have no problem living with free utilities for 16 months but you want to be sure you're billed accurately now? You didn't seem too concerned about accuracy for the first 16 months.

I'll bet your lawyer mentions theft of services to you. Three calls may not get you off the hook.

Theft of what? How much gas did I use?

 

[knightfan7]

Back in the early 90's I had an apartment in Flanders. Several years after I moved out I received a bill from whoever was the gas company for charges after I moved out. I called them. They said they had no record of my terminating the service and demanded I send proof I didn't live there at the time. I requested a letter from the leasing agent which I sent on to the gas co. Never heard from them again.

 

[RUich]

Had a similar situation with a cable provider many years ago and ended up paying nothing even though we made quite a few calls for a bill.
Utilities are regulated by the government. That said, I would contact my representatives to get some information on your rights in this matter. Can you prove you contacted them for billing? They are certainly somewhat responsible for this and should share some of the blame.

 

[RU4Real]

The gas company only reads the meter occasionally, anyway. Most of our bills are "estimated", then they true up about once every six months with an actual meter reading that has to be coordinated because they're afraid of the dog.

 

[LevaosLectures]

The gas company only reads the meter occasionally, anyway. Most of our bills are "estimated", then they true up about once every six months with an actual meter reading that has to be coordinated because they're afraid of the dog.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Right, and if they were using estimates based on whatever their formula is it would be far more reasonable.

But what they are doing is starting with a meter reading from 2007, and "filling in the blanks" retroactively to bridge to my current reading. That's ridiculous.

 

[FastMJ]

Well while it's wonderful to hear about your tedious household issues. Yes you should pay your bill - even if it FEELS unfair.

I expect you will do whatever you can to pay the minimum - not the fair amount - pretty obvious that you were hoping to slide through with free service since you didn't get bills for sixteen months and only made three calls. No surprise based on what I've learned about you in your short time here. Now after getting free service for 16 months you want a break on the bill you're getting. FSA.

OMFG what an asshat you are. Did you even read what he wrote before you wrote your diarrhea of the keyboard?

 

[derleider]

The gas company only reads the meter occasionally, anyway. Most of our bills are "estimated", then they true up about once every six months with an actual meter reading that has to be coordinated because they're afraid of the dog.

They havent installed smart meters where you live?

 

[RU4Real]

They havent installed smart meters where you live?

Clearly not.

 

[LevaosLectures]

By smart meters do you mean the digitAL ones outside the house or the ones that actually transmit info via radio waves to the company remotely. I think the latter are still very rare. Wasn't there a pilot program in long island a couple years ago?

In any case I gather we are the only house in the neighborhood with an old fashioned indoor dial meter.

 

[Ole Cabbagehead]

So you have no problem living with free utilities for 16 months but you want to be sure you're billed accurately now? You didn't seem too concerned about accuracy for the first 16 months.

I'll bet your lawyer mentions theft of services to you. Three calls may not get you off the hook.

LOL. You are off the reservation on this one. He calls the company three times and says they need to bill him. They don't. You think its fair he should pay for years of use prior to moving in? Then you suggest he could be subject to criminal prosecution? Theft of services?! 3 calls might not get you off the hook?

To be guilty of the crime of theft you need criminal intent to take something. The fact that he set up an account for the residence with PSEG immediately ends that inquiry. He set up an account, and they supplied gas to the home without sending an invoice. He has zero legal obligation to PSEG. His setting up an account, by itself, demonstrates a lack of intent to steal gas. No intent = no criminal violation. Moreover, they never billed. So he was never put on notice that he owed PSEG any money, and could not be held criminally liable because payment was never demanded.

On the civil side - is he liable to pay this bill - if we take all facts as true, he wins, easily. He is only liable for the gas he used. PSEG cannot prove he used the gas they claim he used. He notified them he would be using gas by setting up an account; they never took an initial reading. That is negligence. He voluntarily notified PSEG of the situation on 3 occasions, that they had failed to check the meter. That further proves negligence, and eliminates him from contributory negligence (both parties can't be blamed, because he notified them of their mistake, and they declined to protect their interests). They have acknowledged that they have not billed the account since 2007, that they are aware that he moved in a year and a half ago, and that they have billed him for all gas usage at the residence since 2007. In sum, they have admitted that they have billed him for gas he did not use. That is bad faith. It is an admission that they are attempting to make him pay for the gas usage of others. They lose. They admitted they do not know what he owes, therefore they cannot substantiate his debt his debt in court.

Legality having been settled we are left with whether what he did is ethical. You have an issue with it. I agree with you that he seems to have hoped that they would never send a bill, and he would get away with free gas forever. But somewhere between 1 and 3 calls (if we take it all as true), for me at least, there is a shift. I mean shit, PSEG is a huge company, and if I told them 3 times to send me a bill and they didn't I would probably stop calling too. Like I said before, what was he supposed to do? Sue them to come out and read the meter and bill him?