OT: MMR vaccine not associated with autism, even in at risk children

[RU848789]

Normally, I might post this on the CE board, but I think after all the bullshit, manufactured, anti-vaccine fear mongering from Jenny McCarthy and the anti-science crowd, largely based on Wakefield's discredited/fraudulent "studies" in the UK, purporting a link between vaccines and autism, we need to spend some time reeducating people on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. The latest study on MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccines confirms that no link to autism exists, even in populations of children considered at risk for autism. Kills me that we had to waste precious scientific resources on something all experts already considered safe, instead of on some much more important research.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahae...utism/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

As an interesting aside, has anyone seen the report on the woman in Canada, who was an anti-vaccine zealot, but who was recently wavering on that stance and considering getting vaccines for her kids? Sadly, before she could vaccinate them, all 7 of her children came down with whooping cough (pertussis) - they should all survive, but they've been through hell, because of it. I can't imagine a parent denying the protection vaccines afford their children. Mind boggling.

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2015/...s-her-seven-children-contract-whooping-cough/

 

[T2Kplus10]

Anyone that believes in the vaccine/autism link is a fool. Data is data and the connection just isn't there.

 

[RUseaweed]

It's unfortunate that articles like this aren't more widely circulated and the crap that big name celebrities spew is.

 

[WhiteBus]

Anyone that believes in the vaccine/autism link is a fool. Data is data and the connection just isn't there.

Until they have the reason for the dramatic rise in autism than statements like this are completely stupid. Nothing has been eliminated. ..period!

 

[RU848789]

Until they have the reason for the dramatic rise in autism than statements like this are completely stupid. Nothing has been eliminated. ..period!

If you believe that, then you truly have no understanding of the scientific method. There is simply zero data showing even the slightest correlation (let alone causation) of vaccines to autism - and people have been looking very hard to find such a correlation.

 

[krup]

Normally, I might post this on the CE board.../

Well, this thread might end up getting moved anyway, but has already served a purpose. A poster whose sense I previously questioned based on sports posts decided to chime in and confirm his status as a wacko.

 

[RU85inFla]

I'm not a scientist by training. Can you help me numbers. When there seems to be antedoctal evidence but no scientific evidence the proper response would be to stop investigating. Thinking like that would have Colombus sitting in Spain wouldn't it?

 

[niarte]

You can find a good review here https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-still-not-linked-to-autism/. Searching the web site will also give you additional articles with references. Great medical blog.

 

[BeKnighted]

I'm not a scientist by training. Can you help me numbers. When there seems to be antedoctal evidence but no scientific evidence the proper response would be to stop investigating. Thinking like that would have Colombus sitting in Spain wouldn't it?

It's been investigated, more than once, so it's more like Columbus sailing several times and finding nothing.

 

[Upstream]

I'm not a scientist by training. Can you help me numbers. When there seems to be antedoctal evidence but no scientific evidence the proper response would be to stop investigating. Thinking like that would have Colombus sitting in Spain wouldn't it?

There is no anecdotal evidence that vaccines cause (or are correlated) with autism. There was the Wakefield study, which later was shown to be a fraud using faked data.

 

[RU4Real]

I'm not a scientist by training. Can you help me numbers. When there seems to be antedoctal evidence but no scientific evidence the proper response would be to stop investigating. Thinking like that would have Colombus sitting in Spain wouldn't it?

I'm not sure I really understand what this post is getting at, nor do I understand the post that @WhiteBus is trying to make. There's no lack of ongoing research into the causes (note the plural) of autism, even beyond the work that's been done to determine the lack of a connection with infant vaccines.

Rutgers has had a genetics study ongoing for a number of years. We took part in the early stages. What they're attempting to do is map the genetics of the disorder between patients and family members and they've had some positive success. They've been able to demonstrate (as have other studies) that there are certain genetic markers which are common to autistic patients. What they haven't been able to do is come up with an instance of a single genome which causes the disorder. This isn't surprising, since autism is a "spectrum disorder" and its symptoms and manifestations vary from one individual to the next.

What is certain, at this point, is that there is absolutely no connection to infant vaccines. I've been saying this for years, simply because the commonly circulated stories of "my kid was perfectly normal until he got his MMR" are, and always have been, complete and utter bullshit. None of these kids are "completely normal" at birth, only to undergo some traumatic transformation at 18 months. That's pure urban legend and the parents who claim firsthand experience with such a thing are being dishonest.

 

[Upstream]

Until they have the reason for the dramatic rise in autism than statements like this are completely stupid. Nothing has been eliminated. ..period!

That's true. Nothing has been eliminated. I still support the theory that umbrellas cause autism. When people carry umbrellas, it causes it to rain. And everyone with autism has breathed the damp air from rainy days.

 

[newell138]

based on Whitebus's theory it could be that eating a slice of pizza causes autism, since it hasn't been eliminated.

 

[jiggscasey]

We have at least 2 dip ships. More will come. Rather than admit they don't know something they would rather assert a cause.

Even if vaccines did cause autism it would still be better to vaccinate. Autism is not as bad as polio and all the other crap that vaccines demonstrably prevent.

 

[RU4Real]

Even if vaccines did cause autism it would still be better to vaccinate. Autism is not as bad as polio and all the other crap that vaccines demonstrably prevent.

I submit that this statement would depend entirely upon one's perspective. Polio is often fatal but most other childhood diseases are not.

 

[bryanjints]

based on Whitebus's theory it could be that eating a slice of pizza causes autism, since it hasn't been eliminated.

That's actually a valid concern. Diet is definitely a possibility. Thank you for bringing it up.

 

[WhiteBus]

Funny. So tell me what is causing the dramatic rise in Autism. So you say vaccines aren't a part of because there is no data to support it. There is also no data to disprove it either.
Vaccines may not be a direct cause but they can be a part of a combination of things that is different today than it was 20 years ago. Some of you read a study and than put your head in the sand. I knew to many friends who have children with Autism to be be satisfied with studies declaring that a singular event doesn't cause Autism. Until we can find a link to why there is a staggering increase in Autism please don't declare anything out!!

 

[MikeRU1766]

See you have to be careful.... sure vaccines and autism may have no correlation.

But that doesn't mean that vaccine are effective.

The lead researcher of the vaccine Gardisil came out and said that and best Gardisil is practically useless and at worst the side effects are dangerous.
link is here...... http://www.naturalnews.com/041644_Gardasil_vaccination_scam_HPV_vaccine.html#

 

[RU4Real]

Funny. So tell me what is causing the dramatic rise in Autism. So you say vaccines aren't a part of because there is no data to support it. There is also no data to disprove it either.
Vaccines may not be a direct cause but they can be a part of a combination of things that is different today than it was 20 years ago. Some of you read a study and than put your head in the sand. I knew to many friends who have children with Autism to be be satisfied with studies declaring that a singular event doesn't cause Autism. Until we can find a link to why there is a staggering increase in Autism please don't declare anything out!!

You're not thinking clearly.

Nearly all kids get vaccinated. The percentage of kids who get vaccinated is more or less constant over time. If vaccines were related to autism, than the incidence of the disorder would a) initially manifest with the implementation of vaccines and b) remain constant over time.

This is not the case.

The anti-vaccine crowd initially claimed that Thimerasol, a mercury-based preservative, was responsible. Mercury has been removed from all childhood immunizations. Ergo, the incidence of autism should fall, correspondingly. It has increased.

Some parents don't vaccinate their kids (especially in the UK and other parts of Europe). Accordingly, non-vaccinated kids should never be diagnosed with autism, right?

This is not the case. The incidence of autism as a percentage of the whole is the same in both populations.

And finally, as I've said, developmental delay and behaviors associated with autism are not "sudden onset". They are present and detectable from birth.

 

[MikeRU1766]

Also, you have to be careful about Thimerosal. It is a preservative used in vaccine that is MERCURY-based. Yeah Mercury aka one of the most famous neurotoxins in the world! Here is a quick explanation I found about Thimerosal...

"First, one must understand a few facts regarding thimerosal. Used as a preservative, thimerosal is made up of 49.6% mercury, a known neurotoxin. (Immunizationinfo.org) There are 25 mcg of mercury included in each regular season flu shot while the EPA sets the toxicity limit of mercury at .1 mcg. This is a 250 times greater amount than the EPA considers the toxic level in each injection. (Safeminds) While denial by vaccine makers and welfare scientists may exist as to the effects of ethylmercury compared to methylmercury, there can be no denial that mercury, in any form, is harmful to the brain. The argument made by vaccinators, of course, is that the harmful effects of ethylmercury are negligible when weighed against the benefits of the vaccine."

This quote came from this article... http://www.infowars.com/mercury-in-vaccines-no-more-dangerous-than-the-mercury-in-a-tuna-sandwich/

So while I am sure the debate will continue I think people need to think a little bit longer than they are about what EXACTLY they are allowing injected into their own body or their children's body.

 

[LC-88]

There is no anecdotal evidence that vaccines cause (or are correlated) with autism. There was the Wakefield study, which later was shown to be a fraud using faked data.

I have four friends with autistic children. All four of them were normal until receiving their "shot schedule" when they were 12 months old. Got a rash near the injection site, erratic behavior and fever, next day not the same. Was it MMR or the mercury preservative, or coincidence? Just anecdotal evidence on my part I guess.

My friends had twin boys in 1991. Low birth weight but otherwise fine. At three months they started having issues. Dr.'s ran a bunch of tests. Discovered very high levels of mercury in both boys. Told their parents "We have no idea in the world how they could have this much mercury in their systems. Can't be the vaccines we gave them at birth and two months." Well turns out they were wrong. They are still both autistic.

Not calling anyone crazy or stupid. Just sharing info. Alot of these studies are either directly or indirectly funded by the drug companies. Go look at the who's who in the CDC and FDA, and you will find it populated by many former pharmaceutical execs and doctors. No conflict of interest.

 

[RU4Real]

I have four friends with autistic children. All four of them were normal until receiving their "shot schedule" when they were 12 months old. Got a rash near the injection site, erratic behavior and fever, next day not the same. Was it MMR or the mercury preservative, or coincidence? Just anecdotal evidence on my part I guess.

My friends had twin boys in 1991. Low birth weight but otherwise fine. At three months they started having issues. Dr.'s ran a bunch of tests. Discovered very high levels of mercury in both boys. Told their parents "We have no idea in the world how they could have this much mercury in their systems. Can't be the vaccines we gave them at birth and two months." Well turns out they were wrong. They are still both autistic.

Not calling anyone crazy or stupid. Just sharing info. Alot of these studies are either directly or indirectly funded by the drug companies. Go look at the who's who in the CDC and FDA, and you will find it populated by many former pharmaceutical execs and doctors. No conflict of interest.

Not to disrespect your friends, but no... they weren't.

 

[iReC89]

What some people will post to get their like count up.
Let he who has not hugged a bad weather model cast the first stone.

 

[MikeRU1766]

If Thimerosal has really been removed from ALL vaccines then GREAT! That is a very positive step. But of course this makes me think back to the days before they removed the Thimerosal when the vaccine makers were saying "Vaccines are completely safe come and everyone should have them!" How could they say that when their is MERCURY in their product?! Tough for me to trust them after something like that...

 

[LC-88]

Exactly. Most multi-dose vials still use it. Guess what most state and county health centers use to keep costs down? Multi-dose vials. Poor kid that gets the last dose from the vial that was not shaken enough prior to drawing the vaccine. Preservative tends to separate out to the bottom of the vial.

 

[LocalDC]

my point was and continues to be that because there is not data to show statistically significant evidence of an issue does NOT mean it cannot happen in an isolated case this is true in regards to all studies where there is a POTENTIAL mechanism of cause..and although some may disagree, I would say there is an obvious pathway of cause

 

[daneman100]

That is called a temporal link. Vaccinations occur around the time autism presents so parents looking for answers find an easy scapegoat. It has been proven time and time again that there is no link, you need to let go of emotional responses and listen to logic and the scientific method.

 

[RU85inFla]

I have no skin in this game other than the probability that one of my grandchildren will be diagnosed within the "spectrum" based upon the alarming and increasing incidence rates. The little I know and based upon the different experiences people posted in the other thread really makes me wonder if it is one thing that is effecting our children or in fact many. We certainly know that the effects manifest themselves in many many ways with many many different regimens of effective treatment.

So is there anecdotal evidence that vaccines cause autism in some - not all - children, yes there clearly is. Anyone that thinks not has their head up their ass. How much money should we as a society spend on investigating this linkage is the real question. Unfortunately like so many on this board that can only see black and white, but the answer has probably not been conclusively determined. I have not read the research, however I find it interesting that they create a high risk group by identifying siblings, a genetic pairing per say, to test if vaccines (an environmental stimulus) has an effect on autism. The argument is that there may exist some group of kids with some genetic makeup that is at risk when given vaccines. We are in search of this theoretical high risk group. The researchers take a crack at defining it. All they prove is that vaccines do not increase the rate of Autism in the high risk group as they have defined it. Nothing more!!

My son is a 23 year old diabetic. He was diagnosed when he was 10 and told by his doctor that there would be a cure by the time he was 18 based upon promising islet cell transplantation research that was underway. This past week, his endocrinologist gave him the lecture about living healthy because there would probably not be a cure in his lifetime even though they have cured it in mice about a dozen times. Should we have stopped funding diabetes research years ago when we though we had a cure?? Should we stop now when we still don't have one??

Autism is frankly an epidemic in our country. The rate of growth is phenomenal and its economic impact to families and society overall is staggering. I just find it amazing that anyone in the scientific community, including pharma, can stand tall and say its not my problem. Pretty f&%$ing arrogant if I may say.

 

[RU4Real]

Exactly. Most multi-dose vials still use it. Guess what most state and county health centers use to keep costs down? Multi-dose vials. Poor kid that gets the last dose from the vial that was not shaken enough prior to drawing the vaccine. Preservative tends to separate out to the bottom of the vial.

Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines beginning in 1999. To date, the ONLY "routine" vaccination that still contains it is the DT vaccine, which is not indicated for young children.

And yet the autism rate continues to increase.

This debate falls outside the realm of "good science vs. bad science" - it's simple math.

As for the observance of a vaccine "reaction", this isn't uncommon. Most kids have some sort of reaction to vaccines. Most adults have some sort of reaction to vaccines. Such is the nature of the thing. Correlation of vaccine reactions to future and ongoing developmental disabilities is, again, just bad math.

The problem with saying that kids were totally normal, just fine, etc., up to the point where they began their infant vaccine schedule is simply that pediatricians are typically unwilling or unable to formally note developmental delays prior to 24 months. The varied rate at which infants and toddlers develop forces them to take a "wait and see" approach to anything that falls outside the normal range of development. The "benchmark" associated with developmental delay post-18 months is because that's the age at which significant development begins to occur (talking, problem solving, etc.) and so it's much easier to spot developmental delays in that context. It's true, however, that infants who ultimately are diagnosed with ASD do, in fact, exhibit subtle signs of developmental delay prior to 18 months - and prior to routine vaccinations.

 

[LocalDC]

the mercury is one potential contributing factor..I wouldn't base it all on that
if the vaccines are "merely" an epigenetic contributor it is still worth it to look at those with potential autoimmune tendencies and deal accordingly

 

[derleider]

Until they have the reason for the dramatic rise in autism than statements like this are completely stupid. Nothing has been eliminated. ..period!

Well except this vaccine, which has been eliminated as a cause within any reasonable definition.

We have at least 2 dip ships. More will come. Rather than admit they don't know something they would rather assert a cause.

Even if vaccines did cause autism it would still be better to vaccinate. Autism is not as bad as polio and all the other crap that vaccines demonstrably prevent.

What I dont get is why they are so hung up on this theory being right? I mean there are lots of things that could have caused the increase in autism We've introduced legions of chemicals into our diets and environments at the same time as we started using these vaccines. Why do people have so much mental energy invested in this one particular cause over others?

 

[RU4Real]

Well except this vaccine, which has been eliminated as a cause within any reasonable definition.

What I dont get is why they are so hung up on this theory being right? I mean there are lots of things that could have caused the increase in autism We've introduced legions of chemicals into our diets and environments at the same time as we started using these vaccines. Why do people have so much mental energy invested in this one particular cause over others?

As was mentioned previously, it's a combination of "scapegoating" and the fact that Wakefield's work came at a critical moment in the debate (which was clearly no accident).

Wakefield, single-handedly, set the investigative science back a number of years. He should be shot, or something.

 

[WhiteBus]

You're not thinking clearly.

Nearly all kids get vaccinated. The percentage of kids who get vaccinated is more or less constant over time. If vaccines were related to autism, than the incidence of the disorder would a) initially manifest with the implementation of vaccines and b) remain constant over time.

This is not the case.

The anti-vaccine crowd initially claimed that Thimerasol, a mercury-based preservative, was responsible. Mercury has been removed from all childhood immunizations. Ergo, the incidence of autism should fall, correspondingly. It has increased.

Some parents don't vaccinate their kids (especially in the UK and other parts of Europe). Accordingly, non-vaccinated kids should never be diagnosed with autism, right?

This is not the case. The incidence of autism as a percentage of the whole is the same in both populations.

And finally, as I've said, developmental delay and behaviors associated with autism are not "sudden onset". They are present and detectable from birth.

My point is no one knows what it is. I know several families who have multiple children where one has Autism. They come from the same parents, they went to the same doctors, had the same vaccines. Just because only one of them has Autism doesn't mean anything could not have been a contributing factor.

The rise in Autism % is dramatically scary.

As for getting on a soapbox and declaring what isn't causing the rise in Autism I will give you all this challenge. My club is sponsoring their 6th Annual AOH Puzzle Walk this Saturday morning. Get away from your keyboards for a morning and join us for a good cause. After you spend time with many of these parents you might not be so eager to make declarations of what causes or does not cause Autism.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1418008205164455/

As for those that want to make umbrella or pizza jokes on this thread about such a serious topic you have zero class. I hope you got a good chuckle from your posts because you have exposed yourselves again as complete A-Holes.

 

[TonyLieske]

As for those that want to make umbrella or pizza jokes on this thread about such a serious topic you have zero class. I hope you got a good chuckle from your posts because you have exposed yourselves again as complete A-Holes.

FWIW, I don't think they were making fun of the topic (Autism), but rather making fun of you. JMHO of course.

 

[WhiteBus]

FWIW, I don't think they were making fun of the topic (Autism), but rather making fun of you. JMHO of course.

I agree but there is a time and a place for everything. This thread is not one of them. There is nothing funny about the topic. They are too stupid to sense that.

 

[derleider]

My point is no one knows what it is. I know several families who have multiple children where one has Autism. They come from the same parents, they went to the same doctors, had the same vaccines. Just because only one of them has Autism doesn't mean anything could not have been a contributing factor.

The rise in Autism % is dramatically scary.

As for getting on a soapbox and declaring what isn't causing the rise in Autism I will give you all this challenge. My club is sponsoring their 6th Annual AOH Puzzle Walk this Saturday morning. Get away from your keyboards for a morning and join us for a good cause. After you spend time with many of these parents you might not be so eager to make declarations of what causes or does not cause Autism.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1418008205164455/

As for those that want to make umbrella or pizza jokes on this thread about such a serious topic you have zero class. I hope you got a good chuckle from your posts because you have exposed yourselves again as complete A-Holes.

Sorry - your response was worth mockery because its so ignorant and yet so pious.

It doesn't help anyone to continue to insist that something that has been proven within the limits of statistical inference to not be the cause is the cause. Aside from causing people to forego vaccines, you also end up wasting valuable research money by essentially forcing scientists to continually revisit the discredited causes.

So if you really want to help people with autism, then probably insisting that things that are pretty conclusively NOT the cause are still possible causes is a bad way to go.

 

[daneman100]

If you want to be angry be angry at people like Wakefield who set the science back decades and was responsible for the deaths of numerous children. He is a criminal. Add to a lesser extent celebrities like Jenny McCarthy who spew uneducated BS.

Also blame a lack of scientific literacy in a generation. Hopefully STEM programs can create a generation of researchers who can finally solve these issues.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

What is thimerosal? Is it the same as mercury?

• Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound and has been used for decades in the United States and other countries. It’s use as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes.
• Mercury is a metal found naturally in the environment and affects the human body differently than thimerosal.

What is the difference between ethylmercury and methylmercury? How are they different?

• When learning about thimerosal and mercury it is important to understand the difference between two different compounds that contain mercury: ethylmercury and methylmercury. They are totally different materials.
• Methylmercury is formed in the environment when mercury metal is present. If this material is found in the body, it is usually the result of eating some types of fish or other food. High amounts of methylmercury can harm the nervous system. This has been found in studies of some populations that have long-term exposure to methylmercury in foods at levels that are far higher than the U.S. population. In the United States, federal guidelines keep as much methylmercury as possible out of the environment and food, but over a lifetime, everyone is exposed to some methylmercury.
• Ethylmercury is formed when the body breaks down thimerosal. The body uses ethylmercury differently than methylmercury; ethylmercury is broken down and clears out of the blood more quickly. Low-level ethylmercury exposures from vaccines are very different from long-term methylmercury exposures, since the ethylmercury does not stay in the body.

Does thimerosal cause autism?

• No. Research does not show any link between thimerosal and autism.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_faqs.html

 

[WhiteBus]

Sorry - your response was worth mockery because its so ignorant and yet so pious.

It doesn't help anyone to continue to insist that something that has been proven within the limits of statistical inference to not be the cause is the cause. Aside from causing people to forego vaccines, you also end up wasting valuable research money by essentially forcing scientists to continually revisit the discredited causes.

So if you really want to help people with autism, then probably insisting that things that are pretty conclusively NOT the cause are still possible causes is a bad way to go.

On this thread with this topic there is nothing to crack wise about. And if you read my last post you would see that I do help the cause. My point is people shouldn't be making such high and mighty declarations on both sides of the issue. It is not as cut and dried as you want to believe it is. I'm not on the side of the crazies that say there is a direct link to vaccines but I'm not stupid enough to declare that it could be at least a contributing factor.

Join the many parents in Bristol on Saturday morning. Maybe after you see what they go through and their desire for the complete truth maybe you wouldn't see that my statement was worthy of mockery.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1418008205164455/

 

[RU4Real]

My point is no one knows what it is. I know several families who have multiple children where one has Autism. They come from the same parents, they went to the same doctors, had the same vaccines. Just because only one of them has Autism doesn't mean anything could not have been a contributing factor.

The rise in Autism % is dramatically scary.

As for getting on a soapbox and declaring what isn't causing the rise in Autism I will give you all this challenge. My club is sponsoring their 6th Annual AOH Puzzle Walk this Saturday morning. Get away from your keyboards for a morning and join us for a good cause. After you spend time with many of these parents you might not be so eager to make declarations of what causes or does not cause Autism.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1418008205164455/

As for those that want to make umbrella or pizza jokes on this thread about such a serious topic you have zero class. I hope you got a good chuckle from your posts because you have exposed yourselves again as complete A-Holes.

Identifying the cause is a significant challenge. It's being *almost* relentlessly addressed. Almost.

For my part, I'd do it differently - or, at least, add another element to the investigative conversation. It's always been my contention that available data isn't being used to its fullest extent.

Given a large chunk of funding, I would design a "performance database" for diagnosed ASD patients. It would contain elements corresponding to every aspect of their ongoing healthcare, including all routine blood work and diagnostic test results. We know that autistic kids are tested almost beyond the limits of comprehension - constant blood work, EEGs, CAT scans, MRIs, etc. Generally speaking, the results of these tests taken individually are within normal limits - but "normal" with regard to all diagnostic tests consists of a range which in many instances is very broad.

Given enough data it should be possible to compare the typical range of test results in the ASD population against the typical range of test results in the neurologically typical population in an effort to identify variations, however small. My theory is that this data would provide clues for additional research.