I might have been painting with a broad brush if I didn't make a not of specifying "some". You're a wee bit too serious, methinks, just having a little fun with the "too good for Rutgers" crowd.
Our NJ upper middle class to affluent kids
- Thread starter zappaa
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I might have been painting with a broad brush if I didn't make a not of specifying "some". You're a wee bit too serious, methinks, just having a little fun with the "too good for Rutgers" crowd.
Folks, I apologize in advance for I do not have a link to substantiate the following, but I was talking to the assistant dean of admissions at RU, and she told me that the mean household income for incoming students in the last five years has increased dramatically well beyond inflation levels, and that the number of low income families or even blue collar levels attending RU has dramatically decreased. For RU anything below 50K household income is considered low level and up to $100K annual household income is perceived as mid level. In fact, she mentioned that if this trend continues, the total number of students with household income exceeding $120K per year may become the majority at RU (first time in history that RU admits higher than mid level income kids -and of course these numbers need to be adjusted for inflation). And obviously, this does not mean that affluent families are sending their kids to RU, but it does mean that current middle class (and upper middle class) families are becoming the primary source of kid being admitted at RU. I personally think that RU's ought to always encourage access from low and mid level families...and care little if rich families send their kids elsewhere....
I'll give you a breakdown from my nephew who is looking at schools now. He actually may get a soccer schollie but is looking at schools independently of that.
1. Campus/busing
2. Academic prestige.
3. Demographics, Interestingly when he visited Amherst he was turned off by a liberal demonstration in their quad area, so that will affect his choice.
1. Campus/busing
2. Academic prestige.
3. Demographics, Interestingly when he visited Amherst he was turned off by a liberal demonstration in their quad area, so that will affect his choice.
Zap, are these fathers expecting their kids to go to top tier schools or PSU/Pitt/SU? Can't fault them for wanting the best for their kids and thinking that their kids are smart enough to get in to those schools. I have four kids and I hope they can all get into Harvard.
I disagree. I also live in Montclair, went to RU (so did my wife) and have college friends in nice affluent towns around the state - the only RU stigma I see is:
- I think it costs something like $27,000 for instate tuition room and board - needs to be better subsidized for instate students. Smart parents know that there is a good likelihood that their kids will need graduate school and that will add on to the costs, so they will absolutely consider their flagship state U if it's a good value. On a relative basis as compared to a private school it may be, but compared to what other states charge in-state students with room and board, I don't think it is. in a state like NJ which taxes you every which way, many parents would otherwise consider RU if it really were an excellent value for their children. One kid I know was near the top of his class, parents have a good amount of money but choose NJIT because he wants to be an engineer and they gave him a full 4 year scholarship into their honors college and surprisingly (to me at least), he loves it after his frosh year. He's smart and figures he will get a masters or other graduate degree and will come out of undergrad $100k ahead of the game for his family.
- this is from some recent and soon-to-be HS graduates I have spoken with - the school seems too disjointed in terms of getting around. My kids have many years until college, but my nieces and nephews are college age or close, 6 live in NJ and they have overall good opinions on RU (my brothers went to RU too as did a sister-in-law) but they find the different campuses and bus situation a turn off. My niece who is a junior and beginning to look and has visited PSU and Maryland so far, really likes RU except for the disjointed campus. Heard the same thing from some other kids over the years.
Other than that, I do not see negative comments about the academic side of the school when I have discussed RU with locals in and around Montclair and other nice areas in NJ. I am surprised when I find out how many people I run into also went there. In the NYC-area, the only state school grads I run into who are seemingly always doing well (professionally - they may be a mess personally!) are Michigan grads. Other than that, RU seems to hold its own with the other large state schools in terms of professional success.
One other thing - in going to a few football games last year, I was shocked by how many season ticket holders were there supporting RU who went to other schools but like college football and will get behind a NJ team. This was absolutely shocking to me and will pay dividends in the coming generations when their children and the children of current students who are more connected to the school by way of the football team will want to go there and donate.
RUroman
That is interesting and reasonably consistent to what I have heard
The demographics are changing...a bunch
That is interesting and reasonably consistent to what I have heard
The demographics are changing...a bunch
Alabama has always gotten a good share of the state's elite. In fact it's why George Wallace- a poor kid - said he felt so out of place there as a student and why he started out as a non-race-baiting populist - a reaction to what he saw as elitism at the school. He changed and became the rapid segregationist he became known for when he realized that he couldn't get political support without that (and I'm in not excusing or condoning his disgusting racism here).
To say you "care little if rich families send their kids to RU" is ridiculous.
I love our state university, I want everyone to love it, even if they don't go there.
I can tell you I have a friend who's son went to PSU, he told me the networking and opportunities after graduation was insanely good.
I love our state university, I want everyone to love it, even if they don't go there.
I can tell you I have a friend who's son went to PSU, he told me the networking and opportunities after graduation was insanely good.
zap - we might get better lacrosse players. We wouldnt get better students outside of lacrosse. No one cares about lacrosse. Studies have shown that tournament level BB or high bowl level football barely move the dial when it comes to actual student quality at large state schools. Lacrosse wouldnt do anything.
davy - the bus is a major killer. I contend the worst mistake Rutgers ever made was not going through with its 1927 plan to move the entire thing to where Cook and Sears are now. People in America hate buses. Even more than they hate trains - which they hate alot. Even people who ride the subway to work in NYC often wouldnt be caught dead on a bus. Its funny - RU could spend a hundred million making an express bus route between its four campuses (in fact thats the plan) that would be more efficient and flexible for riders or a billion on a light rail - and people would prefer the light rail.
No real way around the bus thing though, other than an incredibly radical and politically/financially impossible remake that would involve giving/selling C/D back to the state and reworking the distribution of grad, professional, and undergrad students in the remaining three campuses.
I also agree that RUs non-white majority, and the poor neighborhoods around it turn off some people who generalyl grew up in the lilyland.
davy - the bus is a major killer. I contend the worst mistake Rutgers ever made was not going through with its 1927 plan to move the entire thing to where Cook and Sears are now. People in America hate buses. Even more than they hate trains - which they hate alot. Even people who ride the subway to work in NYC often wouldnt be caught dead on a bus. Its funny - RU could spend a hundred million making an express bus route between its four campuses (in fact thats the plan) that would be more efficient and flexible for riders or a billion on a light rail - and people would prefer the light rail.
No real way around the bus thing though, other than an incredibly radical and politically/financially impossible remake that would involve giving/selling C/D back to the state and reworking the distribution of grad, professional, and undergrad students in the remaining three campuses.
I also agree that RUs non-white majority, and the poor neighborhoods around it turn off some people who generalyl grew up in the lilyland.
Every major Univ I have ever visited that had even one main campus (either in small town or on edge of a major city), all have "bus systems" to help move students in/around/on and off campus.
Now, many Univ may not have 5 succinct campuses somewhat close to each other like RU, but all the major ones have bus systems to help move students around their "main" campuses plus many times shuttle them to off-campus apartment areas.
I do think RU's 5 main campuses could be a negative to some prospective students who want a mostly walkable main campus area.
I find this very interesting. I can definitely see the upper middle class kid looking at the niceties on campus. Would such a kid want to live in the River dorms, BAMM dorms, or the quad if another school had more modern dorms / apartments with private sleeping quarters, allowed students to have a car, and many amenities Rutgers doesn't offer? Back in the 90s the dorms didn't even have cable TV at Rutgers while many other schools did. It was one of the reasons I moved to an off campus apartment.
Yes. They all have busses. But at Rutgers the busses are a necessity. Even if you schedule just right so that you never have to take a class outside of the campus that you live on, chances are your social life will require the buses. Or you want to see the sports teams play. Or participate in clubs. Rutgers moves more people on busses on a school day than quite a few large cities do.
Other schools they are a convenience to cut a long walk out. At Rutgers those walks just arent doable.
I applied (and got in) to Rutgers in the mid-90s from an upper middle class family in NJ. I ended up going to Michigan. It was a "better" school. My younger brother went to college in the mid-00s and during that decade or so pretty much every school's admission standards got higher. I don't know if I would have gotten into Michigan with my profile if I was 10 years younger. Rutgers was also more difficult to get into. My brother had friends who ended up getting rejected from Rutgers who had similar profiles (class rank, SATs, etc.) as some of my own classmates who got in pretty easily (got an acceptance within one month of applying).
BTW Michigan has a bus system. The engineering, art, architecture and music schools along with some dorms are a 15 minute bus ride away on a separate campus (I called it the 'freaks and geeks' campus). If you have 20,000+ students then you're going to have buildings far away from each other. In my opinion all the various campuses are poorly laid out, but having buses isn't what is holding Rutgers "back."
BTW Michigan has a bus system. The engineering, art, architecture and music schools along with some dorms are a 15 minute bus ride away on a separate campus (I called it the 'freaks and geeks' campus). If you have 20,000+ students then you're going to have buildings far away from each other. In my opinion all the various campuses are poorly laid out, but having buses isn't what is holding Rutgers "back."
Sadly, I believe that Derleider's last sentence is one of the major factors keeping kids of the affluent away from RU. That was true even as far back as the 70s.
In addition to the other points made, it's important to look at higher education in the northeast. The ivies were the first colleges and universities in the US, and as a result affluent students (and parents) sent their kids to private colleges. Look at Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and New Hampshire. All have state schools that are very different from schools in our conference.
We've always been the step child to Princeton. That was made formal when we became the land grant institution, and later in the 1950s when we acquired Newark and Camden. In other regions of our country, the states didn't have the evil eight and invested in their state schools. PA and NY are the exceptions. Cornell is the NY land grant school, and PA is culturally very different in state college compared to Philly.
We've always been the step child to Princeton. That was made formal when we became the land grant institution, and later in the 1950s when we acquired Newark and Camden. In other regions of our country, the states didn't have the evil eight and invested in their state schools. PA and NY are the exceptions. Cornell is the NY land grant school, and PA is culturally very different in state college compared to Philly.
In NJ, Rutgers represents value. Rutgers is essentially a "Honda" of higher learning. Whether or not that's a good thing or bad thing varies from person to person.
The problem with this line of thinking is that TCNJ exists, and TCNJ attracts mostly affluent kids from Monmouth and Union county.
I think that diversity is a major strength of RU, and I can unequivocally state without waving any liberal, PC, SJW, or self-righteous banner that I am 100% a better person and more competent professional today because of the diversity at Rutgers.
That said, I do believe that RU is actually over-diverse. There needs to be a balance struck that doesn't put RU on the PSU or SEC school side (75% to 80% white) but is still higher than the state demographics. I think UCONN is about 60% white and I don't think someone should be called on the carpet for suggesting that's a good balance. (Unless you truly believe that race should have no consideration in admissions whatsoever. Campuses in CA for instance would be 80% Asian if that strict approach was taken.)
TCNJ is a tiny school in a proverbial (or maybe literal, never actually been down there) leafy suburb. RU itself probably has more affluent kids from Monmouth County than TCNJ does. We just also have to fill the rest of the class up with other people too.
And TCNJ is also a value school. It just draws a different demographic.
Bones - Im not sure why you would say that. CT is 77% white, and UConn is between 64% and 80% (depending on assumptions you make about those who didnt report race and the racial make up of foreign students -so probably about 70%).
RU is about equally nonwhite. But in both states that compared to the state as a whole. I would assume both states have more young non-whites than older non-whites. NJ as a whole is right now 58% white non-Hispanics. So in reality RU with about 47% whites is probably not much less white than the graduating HS population in a given year. If you reckon for the fact that alot of NJs rich and upper middle class will never consider RU, then RU might actually be WHITER than the actual group of realistic potential applicants.
The thing is - Im not sure diversity drives RUs makeup. The Asians who are getting in are likely children of immigrants who know a deal when they see one. They are the ones who are overrepresented versus their portion of the states population. Blacks and Hisnapics, the most likely to get in via diversity policies (since those often focus on economic status) are underrepresented.
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The perception (let alone the reality) of Rutgers viewed in-state vs. out of state is strikingly different. No doubt Jersey self-loathing has something to do with it, but having lived for 10 years in So Cal and the last 5 in the Pacific Northwest,it is readily apparent that Rutgers is a much more highly regarded ACADEMIC institution amongst the folks out of state than it is in NJ, especially amongst the high school populations. I taught for over 20 years in a Middlesex County high school and RU was a tough sell amongst the AP kids I taught. I now volunteer with gifted and talented kids in some of the best Portland area high schools and RU is regarded as an elite academic school.
My daughter lives in Michigan (she married a UM alum) and the perception of RU in western Michigan where they live is certainly better than it is on this board. Rutgers does a poor job selling itself and it is not helped by a disinterested and often antagonistic alumni.
The absence of a supportive media doesn't help. The state's flagship newspaper is openly hostile to all things Rutgers and the historic lack of NJ based television-radio networks adds to the NJ pride gap.
I recently returned to New Brunswick for a visit after an absence of many years. I think the campus and New Brunswick itself look better than they ever have. The new construction on the College Ave campus is more than a step in the right direction and the campuses on the other side of the river have been vastly upgraded (the new Business School building is striking). I agree with other posters that the bus transit monster is a huge liability. I've been to Madison and Ann Arbor and note that they too have lots of buses, but the RU system is a turn off, but with the recent school consolidation it is obviously a necessary evil.I was there in April when almost 100,000 people showed up for Rutgers Day. The turnout and diversity of those attending tells me that RU is, at last, doing something right.
I also think it would help if RU made a greater effort to recruit academically from outside the state's border. Admission in the Big 10 will certainly help in that regard. While it is the state university and has to serve that mission, the sooner Rutgers enlarges its footprint the better
My daughter lives in Michigan (she married a UM alum) and the perception of RU in western Michigan where they live is certainly better than it is on this board. Rutgers does a poor job selling itself and it is not helped by a disinterested and often antagonistic alumni.
The absence of a supportive media doesn't help. The state's flagship newspaper is openly hostile to all things Rutgers and the historic lack of NJ based television-radio networks adds to the NJ pride gap.
I recently returned to New Brunswick for a visit after an absence of many years. I think the campus and New Brunswick itself look better than they ever have. The new construction on the College Ave campus is more than a step in the right direction and the campuses on the other side of the river have been vastly upgraded (the new Business School building is striking). I agree with other posters that the bus transit monster is a huge liability. I've been to Madison and Ann Arbor and note that they too have lots of buses, but the RU system is a turn off, but with the recent school consolidation it is obviously a necessary evil.I was there in April when almost 100,000 people showed up for Rutgers Day. The turnout and diversity of those attending tells me that RU is, at last, doing something right.
I also think it would help if RU made a greater effort to recruit academically from outside the state's border. Admission in the Big 10 will certainly help in that regard. While it is the state university and has to serve that mission, the sooner Rutgers enlarges its footprint the better
If if was just people that sent their kids to private I wouldn't care. But in NJ we have always had one of the best financed public school systems with huge state subsidy. While public higher Ed in NJ was slashed in recent decades primary and secondary schools saw very little cut back. The best of that expensive system going out of state and probably never coming back is a issue if we want to build a knowledge based economy.
You can get in to RU with a 1700 SAT - are you kidding? You can't get into many non-flagship State Universities with that. That explains a lot.
TCNJ gets a different profile student than RU - it's much more of a private school-appearing clientele than RU, much more of a BP school. Not saying that TCNJ is close to being like a private school, but the aura there is more like a private school and not that it's a bunch of affluent kids.
Yes and they are making some nice improvements. It is not a mistake they built it to look like a smallish private.
The idea that Rutgers has a better academic reputation out of state is a red herring. And to cite the fact that some people think it is an elite school is just crazy. It has the reputation of an elite eastern school only among those that do not know it is a large state university with entrance requirements that are far from those of elite schools. What some uninformed guy or gal in Dubuque or Sacramento thinks is irrelevant. The only people that matter in terms of those who think you are a good school are the high paying or otherwise sought after employers and the top grad and professional schools. Those entities know exactly what RU is - for better or for worse.
My kids go to a top academic private school in Florida - its grads go to schools all over the country - in this year's class of 155 or so, there were 32 Ivy league acceptances. I can assure you that even though we are far from NJ, none of the guidance folks and none of the many extremely well-credentialed and well-heeled parents think RU is an elite school. In fact, I review the list that comes out each year of where the grads are going to college and while I have seen kids that have gone to PSU, MD, Indiana and some other good, but non-elite State U's outside of our state, not a single student has gone to RU and it appears that that has been the case for quite a while. So no, where it matters, even outside of NJ, the cognoscenti understand that RU is a large State U with some very positive aspects to it and other aspects that go with being a non-elite, underfunded state U.
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Oh man...hate to let facts get in the way here, but I'm going to have to...
Middle 50% range of SAT scores
SAS 1730-2040
MGSA 1650-1930
SEBS 1720-2020
Engineering 1900-2180
Pharma 2100-2290
Business 2100-2290
http://admissions.rutgers.edu/academics/admissionsprofile.aspx
TTFP 1750-2000
http://admissions.psu.edu/apply/statistics/
SAT Reasoning Test (based on the best sub-scores from all tests taken)
Middle 50% of admitted freshmen
1815
http://www.udel.edu/admissions/for/freshmen.html
So now that we resolved RU is harder to get into than TTFP and UDel, what will be the next justification our own "alums" will use to justify NJ students going to those places?
This is the kind of kid people think goes to Rutgers:
When in reality its kids like
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I am not trolling, just saying Rutgers has a perception of a school that has let anyone in, which is the job of a state school, but at the same time it puts out great research and some really impressive alumni.
Maryland used to have same image in the 1970's and now many elite level kids can't get into Maryland but get into Georgetown or Johns Hopkins.
When in reality its kids like
I am not trolling, just saying Rutgers has a perception of a school that has let anyone in, which is the job of a state school, but at the same time it puts out great research and some really impressive alumni.
Maryland used to have same image in the 1970's and now many elite level kids can't get into Maryland but get into Georgetown or Johns Hopkins.
Actually CA banned affirmative action in university admissions, and they are pretty Asian, but not that Asian.
According to RU's stats, NB is 45% white, 27% Asian, 12% Hispanic, 7% Black, International 4%, Other 5%.
http://newbrunswick.rutgers.edu/about/we-are-diverse
According to the census, NJ is 69% white, 8% Asian, 17% Hispanic, 14% Black. So really, only Asians are "overly" represented at RU, but I think that would apply at most state Us.
And UCLA is only 27% white- 33% Asian, 19% Hispanic, 4% Black, 12% International...
https://www.admissions.ucla.edu/campusprofile.htm
According to the census, CA is 74% white, 6% black, 38% Hispanic, 13% Asian.
So demographically, RU is actually a much whiter school, we just overrepresent Asians somewhat more relative to the population and UCLA takes more international students.
Is NJ just more racist? I don't think so. But even saying it is, this argument, even if we assume it's valid, will be short lived as NJ will soon be a majority-minority state and each generation is increasingly filled with more minorities. So really, prejudiced white people are going to be squeezed everywhere.
It will never change as long as it's just as important for little Billy's parents to be able to brag which "name" school he's attending as it is the quality of his education.
Outside of a handful of insiders, "Zappa" is the best asset this board has.
His identity is well-known and I like that most give him the respect he deserves.
Whether racism comes into play as far as college choices and to what extent is another debate for another time, but the percentage of white students from our division of the B1G is as follows:
PSU 79.2%
MSU 79.1%
OSU 77.9%
UM 67.1%
MD 55.4%
RU 47.0%
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Forgot to follow up on this. Not to get too personal, but was curious to know if Zappa or his immediate family sent any kids to Rutgers? Or other schools?
Is there really a meaningful difference between us and Maryland...and some NJ kids choose Maryland over RU...
The other B1G states also don't have the diversity the Northeast does, aside from maybe Illinois or Minnesota.
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