NEWARK - Rutgers University's Board of Governors on Thursday approved merging the Rutgers-Newark and Rutgers-Camden law schools, contingent upon approval by the American Bar Association.
Law School Merger
Law School Merger
Rutgers Board Authorizes Law School Merger
- Thread starter Tango Two
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It remains to be seen what impact the merger will actually have. It does one thing -- it gets "Newark" and "Camden" out of the names of the law schools, which instead will be known simply as the Rutgers University School of Law.
Originally posted by e5fdny:
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that's how Michigan does it?
The business school is officially known as Rutgers Business School and effectively uses RBS in marketing and promotion.
I get the dig at Big Blue Matt, but I would have to agree. And without spending even a second thinking about it, the top tier programs that come to mind at are mostly XXXXX Law School.
It would be a good time to wipe the branding slate clean by dropping the geographies and rolling out a new marketing program. If you're gonna make the change to Rutgers Law School, sorta makes sense to do it now.
Also, the B-School is a perfect example, and should be all of our primary ammunition in arguments and debates, about the potential of Rutgers when the right people are hired, facilities are built and the purse strings are opened up. Rankings are up dramatically (48th from 61st), placements have never been better, alum engagement is on the rise and the student needs are met effectively. And the B-School is a model of how a professional program can effectively operate across NB and Newark campuses.
I get the dig at Big Blue Matt, but I would have to agree. And without spending even a second thinking about it, the top tier programs that come to mind at are mostly XXXXX Law School.
It would be a good time to wipe the branding slate clean by dropping the geographies and rolling out a new marketing program. If you're gonna make the change to Rutgers Law School, sorta makes sense to do it now.
Also, the B-School is a perfect example, and should be all of our primary ammunition in arguments and debates, about the potential of Rutgers when the right people are hired, facilities are built and the purse strings are opened up. Rankings are up dramatically (48th from 61st), placements have never been better, alum engagement is on the rise and the student needs are met effectively. And the B-School is a model of how a professional program can effectively operate across NB and Newark campuses.
"This merger represents an unprecedented and ambitious play in legal education," Rutgers Law-Camden Acting Dean John Oberdiek said. "We believe strongly under this new model, that there are increased opportunities for students at each location to advance their career searches and to learn from a wider selection of world-class Rutgers faculty. Rutgers Law School will be greater than the sum of its parts and will strengthen the reputation of a Rutgers legal education."
Rutgers approves law schools merger
Rutgers approves law schools merger
Yes - but not across the NB and Newark and Camden campuses.
But you are right. The key to getting the law school in NB is as with Pharmacy and Business before it, to start small. Now that the schools are combined you can theoretically have a few programs in NB. Maybe overlaps with medicine or some other NB programs. Then eventually you start getting people in NB clamoring for moving more and more of the program to NB until NB is the center and Newark and Camden are the stub ends.
The Social Work program operates across all three campuses, and I am told it is successful at it.
I think "law school' sounds more informal than "school of law," but I am not sure that is a plus or a minus. I'm sure our administration will arrive at the right solution. (roll of the eyes.)
There has been talk of some kind of "legal studies" program at NB. We'll see if that happens and what it leads to. I am not persuaded that "legal studies" programs amount ot much. There is also a 3-3 program under which NB students commit to attending a Rutgers law school. If I were a parent, I would argue strenuously to my child against entering such a program, and indeed it is little used at the other schools with which we have it.
As a Professional School, Business is not "in New Brunswick with Newark being a stub end." It's actually just the opposite. While all of the most senior people have offices in both places, the heart of the MBA program is in Newark. And it likely always will be. The Dean, Executive Director, Director of the Executive MBA, the department chairs, MBA Student Services, Admissions, Office of Career Management are all centered in Newark.
However, MBA life in New Brunswick is growing. And the new building was likely a part of the bump in rankings. A large part of the ranking is Peer Reputation. Most "peers" didn't know the program even existed in New Brunswick. A large part of the jump was simply making peer school's administration aware of certain things.
I do agree that one potential way of relocating Law to NB would be to get a foothold there using Joint Degree programs and opportunities to take classes with certain profs outside of the law school faculty. But those efforts would have to center on Life Sciences, as pretty much every dual degree program that someone could want is already offered out of Newark Law.
I can tell you that if you mention consolidating the Law School in NB to senior people in the MBA program, they look at you like you are crazy. There is zero institutional momentum for that right now. Less than zero.
And you would have a REVOLT in the New Brunswick SAS. Hickman Hall is practically falling down. Poli Sci would burn the building to the ground if it was announced that they were breaking ground on a Law School on Livingston in an effort to consolidate geography. Hickman had no heat on more than 20 scheduled class days this winter. Poli Sci was on the verge of filing a grievance with the union. It was only some gentle persuasion by the SAS Dean that talked them off the ledge. NJ.com would have wet themselves over some of the things Poli Sci talked about doing.
I agree. The ultimate key to success for the consolidated law school will be for it eventually to move its center of operations to the New Brunswick campus. Whether it's politically correct or not, the New Brunswick location -- amid a rejuvenated campus and city -- will be far more attractive to potential law school students. I graduated from the law school in Newark in the late '80s and I and most of my classmates lamented that it was not in New Brunswick even back then when NB had far less to offer.
I actually like School of Law a little better. It always bothered me how Fordham used "Fordham Law School" or FLS...it felt like having the University and School of Law sounded more sophisticated, just my $.02.
Maybe they can have on section in NB for now and then gently move more.
I think the difference with the business school is the number of people...probably almost all, who come many years after graduation, after work, it just makes more sense in Newark than NB. At most law schools the average age is 25. You have probably a solid half coming out of undergrad and the rest mostly a year or two removed, and often that year was traveling or being a paralegal or Teach for America, something more transient.
IMO the law school should have more a community vibe because it's more often full time...NB I think is more conducive.
I think the poli sci program could be shored up with a law school actually...get some professors teaching both and a joint program. Give a new building to both...do what basketball is doing, get some tax credits with a garage.
Maybe they can have on section in NB for now and then gently move more.
I think the difference with the business school is the number of people...probably almost all, who come many years after graduation, after work, it just makes more sense in Newark than NB. At most law schools the average age is 25. You have probably a solid half coming out of undergrad and the rest mostly a year or two removed, and often that year was traveling or being a paralegal or Teach for America, something more transient.
IMO the law school should have more a community vibe because it's more often full time...NB I think is more conducive.
I think the poli sci program could be shored up with a law school actually...get some professors teaching both and a joint program. Give a new building to both...do what basketball is doing, get some tax credits with a garage.
Who cares about Hickman and Poly Sci, that's not a legit major anyway.
But you are definitely right about RBS. It's anchored on Newark, not NB. During my MBA years, which shockingly date back to 2000-2002, NB was a small satellite, although we had the Levine building. I did my core year in NB and then my elective year in Newark. 100 Rock helps even up the balance, but NB still has some catching up to do.
Originally posted by derleider:
Cute. But many schools do it that way. It is common, among especially the elite ones.Originally posted by Upstream:
NiceOriginally posted by e5fdny:
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that's how Michigan does it?
To me, it just sounds better.
Yale Law School
Harvard Law School
Stanford Law School
Columbia Law School
University of Chicago Law School
And so on...
I agree as well with the one exception if the school ever gets named for someone.
Rutgers University NotinRHouse School of Law, as an example
I think...you left somebody out?Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Cute. But many schools do it that way. It is common, among especially the elite ones.Originally posted by derleider:
NiceOriginally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by e5fdny:
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that's how Michigan does it?
To me, it just sounds better.
Yale Law School
Harvard Law School
Stanford Law School
Columbia Law School
University of Chicago Law School
And so on...
(and I agree...it does sound/roll off the tongue better IMO)
I could always hit the powerball, and then we'd have a NB law school in no time!Originally posted by ruhudsonfan:
I agree as well with the one exception if the school ever gets named for someone.
Rutgers University NotinRHouse School of Law, as an example
Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Originally posted by derleider:
Cute. But many schools do it that way. It is common, among especially the elite ones.Originally posted by Upstream:
NiceOriginally posted by e5fdny:
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that's how Michigan does it?
To me, it just sounds better.
Yale Law School
Harvard Law School
Stanford Law School
Columbia Law School
University of Chicago Law School
And so on...
Rutgers Law
Too many high powered faculty and admins live in NYC. Too many of the best industry adjuncts and profs live in NYC and Northern Bergen County. Too much of the recruiting pitch is "you can live in Hoboken, JC or NYC and be in class in under 30 minutes." They are actually exploring leasing more space in 1 Washington Park.
Would I say NEVER ever happen? No, of course not. But all involved seem quite pleased with the current arrangement. Moving the heart of the MBA program to Livingston also creates a miss match between demand and capacity of the physical plant.
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
So, was the plan to always call the unified school "Rutgers Law School", or did someone read Lawmatt on this board and make a last minute change?Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Originally posted by derleider:
Cute. But many schools do it that way. It is common, among especially the elite ones.Originally posted by Upstream:
NiceOriginally posted by e5fdny:
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that's how Michigan does it?
To me, it just sounds better.
Yale Law School
Harvard Law School
Stanford Law School
Columbia Law School
University of Chicago Law School
And so on...
Originally posted by Upstream:
Sorry, but I think it was the plan all along. Otherwise we would violate the law that ordains that the internet world and the real world must never meet for fear of the apocalypse.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
So, was the plan to always call the unified school "Rutgers Law School", or did someone read Lawmatt on this board and make a last minute change?Originally posted by lawmatt78:
Originally posted by derleider:
Cute. But many schools do it that way. It is common, among especially the elite ones.Originally posted by Upstream:
NiceOriginally posted by e5fdny:
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that's how Michigan does it?
To me, it just sounds better.
Yale Law School
Harvard Law School
Stanford Law School
Columbia Law School
University of Chicago Law School
And so on...
There are a lot of "advantages" being attributed to this merger that are not being explained in any way. A combination of the schools would present a clear upgrade. A merger of the schools that preserves two locations that are non-commutable seems to offer zero advantages other than to the administrative cost of operation. Another ancillary benefit is that this move probably further undercuts the power of Newark or Camden to individually challenge Rutgers' primary administration in New Brunswick (such as with respect to budgetary allocations).
There is a lot of talk about increasing opportunities for students, and the unprecedented breadth of the combined urriculum, but I really don't see how that plays out. Given the distance between the schools, students will still have to choose on bundle of curriculum, clinics and activities or the other. Now they are certainly going to use distance learning to offer more courses on both campuses, but I seriously question how attractive that is to prospective students, and whether it really offers any advantage at all. Most law school courses are already offered at both campuses. What this merger really seems to accomplish is the cost saving associated with using one professor and distance learning for all of the duplicative courses.
There is a lot of talk about increasing opportunities for students, and the unprecedented breadth of the combined urriculum, but I really don't see how that plays out. Given the distance between the schools, students will still have to choose on bundle of curriculum, clinics and activities or the other. Now they are certainly going to use distance learning to offer more courses on both campuses, but I seriously question how attractive that is to prospective students, and whether it really offers any advantage at all. Most law school courses are already offered at both campuses. What this merger really seems to accomplish is the cost saving associated with using one professor and distance learning for all of the duplicative courses.
There is one classroom at Camden's law school that can be used to simultaneously speak to Camden and Newark students. One, and the size is about 50. That doesn't leave much room for distance learning. OTOH, the administration thinks that merged schools will be able to have fewer students (hence higher LSAT scores) than the schools can separately, and that the fact of the merger will in itself raise U.S.News rankings. I confess to having some doubts.
It doesn't take much investment to make a room a distance learning room. A camera, a mike, a TV set, and a wireless connection on both ends. If my HS could have one 20 years ago, surely RU Law can outfit more than one room on an entire campus with one if they need to.
The law schools felt they had to have a lot of bells and whistles. It will be interesting to see whether simpler means will be used to have distance learning classes, with the Holodeck (as it is called) reserved for small courses that demand face-to-face contact such as seminars.
Interesting.
This is the same classroom pictured in the Rutgers New Brunswick campus physical Master Plan under the heading: "Immersion Learning".
This is the same classroom pictured in the Rutgers New Brunswick campus physical Master Plan under the heading: "Immersion Learning".
Der as you can see "distance learning" doesn't mean what it did 20 year ago. RBS has a distance learning class room as well that was just done a few years ago with high tech but I think even that one is less impressive than this one. A camera and screen might fit the minimum requirements but it's not a very effective environment. The new stuff is expensive but it is much much better.
Legal education is not supposed to be a matter of listening to lectures; instead,it is interactive with the professor asking questions of the students and working with the answers. Camera-and-screen distance learning is not consistent with that. For this reason, the American Bar Association limits the amount of credit that a student can earn through distance learning.
Now there is a downside to high-tech arrangements such as the "Holodeck:" and that is that we'll be limited in the number of distance learning classes we offer. But remember that the room will be available for classes all during school hours, and so there will be a fair amount of opportunity for distance learning.
Now there is a downside to high-tech arrangements such as the "Holodeck:" and that is that we'll be limited in the number of distance learning classes we offer. But remember that the room will be available for classes all during school hours, and so there will be a fair amount of opportunity for distance learning.
My guess is that if it seems to work out well you will see it expand over time. A lot of this technology is still new and, I think, some of it may not work as well as planned. We will see though, certainly is an interesting set up.
It still means what it meant 20 years ago - a camera, a screen, and microphones. The screen is bigger, the mikes more sensitive, the camera angle wider, and now everyone has laptops. But at its core, its still the same system I had in HS - we could see the teacher and the other students. They could see us.
Trust me - the teachers heard us whispering 20 years ago and it was immersive enough to notice me three rows back doing the crossword instead of taking notes.
Why is Rutgers merging its law schools? The deans answer your questions
NJ Advance Media asked readers to submit questions about the new law school.
We posed the reader queries and some of our own questions to Rutgers Law-Camden Acting Dean John Oberdiek, Rutgers Law-Newark Acting Dean Ronald Chen and Rutgers-Camden Chancellor Phoebe Haddon last week in Newark.
Why is Rutgers merging its law schools?
NJ Advance Media asked readers to submit questions about the new law school.
We posed the reader queries and some of our own questions to Rutgers Law-Camden Acting Dean John Oberdiek, Rutgers Law-Newark Acting Dean Ronald Chen and Rutgers-Camden Chancellor Phoebe Haddon last week in Newark.
Why is Rutgers merging its law schools?
Re: Why is Rutgers merging its law schools? The deans answer your questions
This post was edited on 4/10 1:25 PM by Tango Two
Holodeck Video
This post was edited on 4/10 1:25 PM by Tango Two
Holodeck Video
Re: Why is Rutgers merging its law schools? The deans answer your questions
Library will now purchase 1 copy instead of 2 - this is a cost saving measure, but is a negative. One of the biggest factors harming Rutgers in the rankings is already library size. Holodeck to offer unique courses does not require a merger to be used.
If there are advantages to this, they certainly don't want to make them public. They seem very content to give half answers. I have a funny feeling they are just using this as part of a 20 year plan to either kill the Camden campus, or consolidate the schools in NB.
The stupid thing is that Rutgers has consistently shown that they do not care about the rankings, with their ludicrous admissions practices and their ambivalence toward big NYC firms. Now they are paying the price for that arrogance. All but the top ranked schools are getting absolutely killed in the current legal economy.
That article is telling. Even the deans cannot seem to explain why this makes sense. No cost savings, no rankings boost. Duplicative classes will continue to be offered in both places, professors will not be required to travel.
Library will now purchase 1 copy instead of 2 - this is a cost saving measure, but is a negative. One of the biggest factors harming Rutgers in the rankings is already library size. Holodeck to offer unique courses does not require a merger to be used.
If there are advantages to this, they certainly don't want to make them public. They seem very content to give half answers. I have a funny feeling they are just using this as part of a 20 year plan to either kill the Camden campus, or consolidate the schools in NB.
The stupid thing is that Rutgers has consistently shown that they do not care about the rankings, with their ludicrous admissions practices and their ambivalence toward big NYC firms. Now they are paying the price for that arrogance. All but the top ranked schools are getting absolutely killed in the current legal economy.
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