85 Bears Defense, 86 Giants Defense

[zappaa]

I think the certainty is close to 100% both of those great defensive teams would have punted the ball last night.
All the old cliches would apply, make the opposition drive the length of the field, basically 4 things can happen when you throw the ball and 3 of them are bad.
But had those teams, which often made offenses go backwards, used the same analytics they’re using today and regularly went for it on 4th down and short, it’s my contention they would both have been even better.
Both Parcels and Ditka would have punted that ball if it was 4th and one inch at the 50 yard line....do any of you old timers disagree?
What hasn’t been discussed much is the brilliance of freezing the defense, after all they’re just trying to drive you off sides... then the snap comes and with seconds left and naturally the D is a 10th of a second late, and no push.
Pretty amazing call

 

[mdk01]

I think the odds are on your side, but I think Ditka would have given a little more thought to Payton and his ability to over the pile.

 

[rudad02]

Both amazing defenses. I would give the edge to the Bears by a bit. Don't know the play you're referring to, but in the circumstances you describe both would probably have punted.

 

[RU at the shore]

I'm a 50 year old Giants fan so my thought is always to "put it in your defenses hands" especially when the other team needs to get into the end zone.

However, especially this year, it seems coaches have determined that offenses are too good for this strategy and have really opened it up in the end game - going for it, passing in the last 3 minutes, not trying to get the other team to burn timeouts, etc.

 

[zappaa]

Both amazing defenses. I would give the edge to the Bears by a bit. Don't know the play you're referring to, but in the circumstances you describe both would probably have punted.

The play was KC up 5, with less than two minutes in the game, Cleveland had no timeouts.
4th and one at their own 35 yard line.
They not only didn’t punt, they threw the ball dad!!!!!

 

[mdk01]

The play was KC up 5, with less than two minutes in the game, Cleveland had no timeouts.
4th and one at their own 35 yard line.
They not only didn’t punt, they threw the ball dad!!!!!

100% certain that if either had gone for it it would have been on the ground.

 

[zappaa]

100% certain that if either had gone for it it would have been on the ground.

Same situation, I’m 100% certain they both would have punted.
There is no if in the equation

 

[Bagarocks]

This thread is about the Cleveland Browns right?
Isn't that play just fitting considering thier history.

 

[koleszar]

I'm a 50 year old Giants fan so my thought is always to "put it in your defenses hands" especially when the other team needs to get into the end zone.

However, especially this year, it seems coaches have determined that offenses are too good for this strategy and have really opened it up in the end game - going for it, passing in the last 3 minutes, not trying to get the other team to burn timeouts, etc.

The game has changed, the rules have been completely slanted in the offenses favor. However, those were some great defenses the 85 Bears IMO had a slight edge. Remember watching that playoff game against the Giants and wondering, not if the Giants will score but if they'll get a 1st down.

My favorite Giant ever Harry "Lunch Pail" Carson held all those guys together. The calming force who made sure everyone was where they were supposed to be. He kept Taylor in line. In today's game no way could you keep all that talent on the same team.

 

[yesrutgers01]

The game has changed, the rules have been completely slanted in the offenses favor. However, those were some great defenses the 85 Bears IMO had a slight edge. Remember watching that playoff game against the Giants and wondering, not if the Giants will score but if they'll get a 1st down.

My favorite Giant ever Harry "Lunch Pail" Carson held all those guys together. The calming force who made sure everyone was where they were supposed to be. He kept Taylor in line. In today's game no way could you keep all that talent on the same team.

Harry was always my favorite too...before the pandemic- could always be found at the Wyckoff Starbucks Sunday Mornings
Saw him a couple weeks back at the Market Basket. Just a really nice guy

 

[zappaa]

The game has changed, the rules have been completely slanted in the offenses favor. However, those were some great defenses the 85 Bears IMO had a slight edge. Remember watching that playoff game against the Giants and wondering, not if the Giants will score but if they'll get a 1st down.

My favorite Giant ever Harry "Lunch Pail" Carson held all those guys together. The calming force who made sure everyone was where they were supposed to be. He kept Taylor in line. In today's game no way could you keep all that talent on the same team.

100% correct with the mind set regarding the Bears ..score?
We can’t even advance the ball, much less make a 1st down

 

[mdk01]

The game has changed, the rules have been completely slanted in the offenses favor. However, those were some great defenses the 85 Bears IMO had a slight edge. Remember watching that playoff game against the Giants and wondering, not if the Giants will score but if they'll get a 1st down.

My favorite Giant ever Harry "Lunch Pail" Carson held all those guys together. The calming force who made sure everyone was where they were supposed to be. He kept Taylor in line. In today's game no way could you keep all that talent on the same team.

Those were the days of Plan B. Neither D, for that matter team, would have stayed together for more than a year or two. Witness what happened to Seattle when Russell Wilson and all those middle round gems finished their first contract all within a year or two.

 

[TM94goRU]

This thread just makes me wish we could watch football the way it used to be played. Today no one plays great defense because of rule changes, free agency, and the salary cap. If you watched the NFL in the 80's or earlier you would never have thought a bad defensive team would ever win a Superbowl. Don Coryell was born too soon. How many form tackles do we see anymore, not many. The game used to be so much better.

 

[rudad02]

The play was KC up 5, with less than two minutes in the game, Cleveland had no timeouts.
4th and one at their own 35 yard line.
They not only didn’t punt, they threw the ball dad!!!!!

You're right Zap, wouldn't have happened back then.

 

[RU at the shore]

Remember watching that playoff game against the Giants and wondering, not if the Giants will score but if they'll get a 1st down.

Sad but I remember watching it too and knowing that the Giants just had no chance at all against that crazy Bears D.

 

[RU at the shore]

Just checked it - Giants only had 181 yards total and 10 first downs in game. Probably most after it was 21-0.

 

[TM94goRU]

Sad but I remember watching it too and knowing that the Giants just had no chance at all against that crazy Bears D.

I think the low point was when Sean Landeta missed the ball punted at the goal line.

 

[zappaa]

I think the low point was when Sean Landeta missed the ball punted at the goal line.

Geez, I forgot all about the whiffed punt...lol

 

[zappaa]

This thread just makes me wish we could watch football the way it used to be played. Today no one plays great defense because of rule changes, free agency, and the salary cap. If you watched the NFL in the 80's or earlier you would never have thought a bad defensive team would ever win a Superbowl. Don Coryell was born too soon. How many form tackles do we see anymore, not many. The game used to be so much better.

In high school we had an 01 face tackling dummy.
You bulled your neck, not drop it, and you drove your face mask into the 01 then wrapped up.
In games most of us dropped our heads and lead with the crown of our helmets,... That’s how we were taught.
That’s ain’t never coming back, it’s against the rules

 

[NickRU714]

I think the certainty is close to 100% both of those great defensive teams would have punted the ball last night.
All the old cliches would apply, make the opposition drive the length of the field, basically 4 things can happen when you throw the ball and 3 of them are bad.
But had those teams, which often made offenses go backwards, used the same analytics they’re using today and regularly went for it on 4th down and short, it’s my contention they would both have been even better.
Both Parcels and Ditka would have punted that ball if it was 4th and one inch at the 50 yard line....do any of you old timers disagree?
What hasn’t been discussed much is the brilliance of freezing the defense, after all they’re just trying to drive you off sides... then the snap comes and with seconds left and naturally the D is a 10th of a second late, and no push.
Pretty amazing call

And this is absolutely backwards thinking of "old school" football.

If your defense is great then you go MORE agressive on offense.

If your the 85 Bears/86 Giants and you go for it on 4th and don't get it - trust your defense to stop them.
Take the chance to end the game on offense knowing if you don't get it, the great defense can bail you out.

 

[rutger80]

Ditka probably would have given it to the Fridge.

 

[e5fdny]

It wasn’t Parcells (Ray Perkins) but anyone remember the naked bootleg by Scott Brunner against the Cowboys?

And the Browns needed a TD and not a FG.

 

[NickRU714]

Alternatively, if your defense is bad - also be aggressive on offense.

Need to maximize scoring chances since likely the defense to give up points.

Moral of the story - conservative offense never makes sense.

 

[RUJMM78]

I will take Lawrence Taylor as one of my first selections in the best defensive players in NFL history.He made the Giants a championship team.

 

[zappaa]

It wasn’t Parcells (Ray Perkins) but anyone remember the naked bootleg by Scott Brunner against the Cowboys?

And the Browns needed a TD and not a FG.

Well down 5 means they needed a TD.
Are you taking about the last game of the season at Giants Stadium where beating the Cowboys put the Giants in the playoffs?

 

[zappaa]

Alternatively, if your defense is bad - also be aggressive on offense.

Need to maximize scoring chances since likely the defense to give up points.

Moral of the story - conservative offense never makes sense.

Nick, you mean never made sense?
Because they’re punting that football 4th and inches in the 20th century

 

[RUTGERS95]

nm

 

[zappaa]

nm

The 78 Steelers would have punted also, from the 50

 

[yesrutgers01]

If I'm the 86 Giants- I don't let Phil throw the ball but I am think Morris running behind Carthon at 4th and 1 is not a bad option at the 50 since the other team most likely doesn't score even if we don't get it...

 

[e5fdny]

Well down 5 means they needed a TD.
Are you taking about the last game of the season at Giants Stadium where beating the Cowboys put the Giants in the playoffs?

Yeah.

I think all of us were shocked when it happened and Brunner took off.

But IMO with the Browns needing a TD instead of just the FG does change it a little bit. If it was three maybe the Chiefs do punt.

 

[SouthJerseyRU]

The game has changed, the rules have been completely slanted in the offenses favor.

This is the most relevant line in this thread. Rules and innovative playcalling have tilted the field in favor of the offense. See the tweet I posted in the other thread, the play as designed had had a 88% success rate.

The other thing that is needed to go for it there is a confident head coach. Reid is not losing his job over blowing the call, nor is he worried about any press he would receive.

As for one of the questions in this thread, I think Parcells would have went for it because he seemed to be a bit a head of the curve in all coaching areas. Ditka I'm not sure of but he had the best RB in the game at the time so why not.

 

[DJ Spanky]

The 78 Steelers would have punted also, from the 50

Yup. I think earlier Steelers teams would have done that also.

 

[TM94goRU]

In high school we had an 01 face tackling dummy.
You bulled your neck, not drop it, and you drove your face mask into the 01 then wrapped up.
In games most of us dropped our heads and lead with the crown of our helmets,... That’s how we were taught.
That’s ain’t never coming back, it’s against the rules

True but I was just talking about the lack of fundamentals. I am not advocating for brain damage( no to Jack Tatum or Chuck Cecil) just not trying to get on sports center with every play. In my opinion it is just a better watching experience. Back then you had teams that were good in all three phases, others who were good in one or the other and bad teams. Now it is so heavily offensive and the rules are such, that even many ex-players do not know what constitutes a catch or pass interference anymore. I still love the game just wish it was played better. I also can't stand all the celebrations for doing what you are supposed to do. I have seen many times players celebrating after giving up 5+ yards and even first downs. It grates on me. Anyway great thread, it is nice to talk sports without any politics or player branding included.

 

[theRU]

As other have said the calculus is different based on the rules favoring offense.

You can throw it for a completion, you can throw it for dpi, you can throw it and catch a qb roughing call. I'm waiting for the day that offenses stop running at all . Just go 4 downs every time and have 70- 100 attempts a game

 

[theRU]

The play was KC up 5, with less than two minutes in the game, Cleveland had no timeouts.
4th and one at their own 35 yard line.
They not only didn’t punt, they threw the ball dad!!!!!

Maybe my memory fails me again but I thought it was closer to mid field, maybe KC 46

 

[knight82]

I think the certainty is close to 100% both of those great defensive teams would have punted the ball last night.
All the old cliches would apply, make the opposition drive the length of the field, basically 4 things can happen when you throw the ball and 3 of them are bad.
But had those teams, which often made offenses go backwards, used the same analytics they’re using today and regularly went for it on 4th down and short, it’s my contention they would both have been even better.
Both Parcels and Ditka would have punted that ball if it was 4th and one inch at the 50 yard line....do any of you old timers disagree?
What hasn’t been discussed much is the brilliance of freezing the defense, after all they’re just trying to drive you off sides... then the snap comes and with seconds left and naturally the D is a 10th of a second late, and no push.
Pretty amazing call

The mindset was so different back in those days probably because the rules didn't favor the offense like today. This reminds me of a time when I was in college in the early 80s. I really liked my high school's coach, you could talk football with him for hours. If I wasn't busy on a weekend and I knew he was at a game scouting an upcoming opponent I would go to that game and sit with him and he would explain to me the things he was looking for. As a young college kid, I always has crazy ideas, so at one of those games one of the teams had the ball fourth and one at their own 45. I asked him, "coach, why don't teams ever go for it in this situation?" He looked at me like I had two heads, dramatically pointed to the field and said, "LOOK WHERE YOU'RE GIVING THEM THE BALL!!!!"

 

[Shelby65]

The Chiefs made it look like they were only trying to draw the defense offsides. The skill position guys didn’t look like a play was on, until it was. The Browns didn’t expect a play.

I bet Henne had the option of taking the delay if he thought the defense was ready.

 

[BigEastPhil]

For 1 year, was there a better defense than the 85 Bears?

85 Bears and 86 Mets always struck me as similar teams in the standpoint that they were dominant in the years they won but should have accomplished more.