Why we had to burn a time out while VT was running multiple defensive players on and off the field.
The referee did not allow us to snap the ball
The referee did not allow us to snap the ball
Can someone explain?
- Thread starter zappaa
- Start date
When the offense substitutes, the defense has to also get a chance to sub…..so the ref will hold up the offense from being able to snap until the D subs. Offensive subs need to be fast & crisp so that when the D does it, there’s plenty of time to run the play.
I think it’s a rule that should be looked at. Defenses milk it getting off the field which is entirely in the rules, but this is what can happen. I don’t think the intent of the rule is to just milk down the play clock.
I think it’s a rule that should be looked at. Defenses milk it getting off the field which is entirely in the rules, but this is what can happen. I don’t think the intent of the rule is to just milk down the play clock.
Offense makes a change you change make a change too
We caused a delay of game on Akron
Guy coming on can slowly jog , tap the guy coming out and the guy coming out can slowly jog off
We caused a delay of game on Akron
Guy coming on can slowly jog , tap the guy coming out and the guy coming out can slowly jog off
No question it needs to be reviewed. There has to be some limit to the amount of time for the defense to sub
The announcer called them out there. He said that's not the spirit of the sub rule.
Seems like the reasonable solution would be for the play clock to be stopped during the time when the officials are preventing the offense from snapping the ball, this way the defense isn't incentivized to drag ass getting to the sideline.
I don’t know what specific play you are referring to BUT If the offense makes a sub late in the play clock the D still gets a chance to substitute. Smart DC’s tell their kids to take their sweet time getting off the field.
It’s our fault for making a late sub
Disagree. So If I’m an OC and the play clock is getting low I can just run a WR on and buy time?
That’s a fair point, but the flip side is when the D sub jogs onto the field like a 95 year old and the guy he’s subbing for jogs off like he’s 99.
You mandate subs must be made by a specified time on the play clock,
That’s gamesmanship. We have this rule because chip Kelly used to run ducks on late and the D couldn’t adjust
I get it, but I still think there can be something done to adjust for the BS. I’m no expert, so I don’t have the solution, but gamesmanship shouldn’t be a strategy that can significantly impact a game’s outcome.
I think Gundy at Ok St was the first to use the slow defensive subs a couple years ago.
VT subbed what seemed like 6 guys, all staggered
The offense controls tempo. When an OC calls a play he should have at least 3 plays ready to go for the next down Based on outcome. Its chess not checkers
Fine, then make it so the offense can only sub until the play clock reaches 15 or something, and then the defense has 10 seconds after that to make subs before the offense can snap it whether the defense is ready or not. You can play around with the numbers one way or the other, but the point is there should be a finite number of seconds in order to eliminate the gamesmanship and the officials' subjectiveness on if the defense is taking too long.
1. We subbed late, so we messed up.
2. Lewis attempted to do the same thing earlier in the game against VT
3. It is an annoying rule, but loopholes are loopholes.
2. Lewis attempted to do the same thing earlier in the game against VT
3. It is an annoying rule, but loopholes are loopholes.
It’s a “trick” that’s been used in the last couple years. I’ve seen it a bunch of times.
It’s the late subbing by the O that can allow the “trick” to be used. If the offense subs quickly and crisply then there isn’t an issue.
This is not a new rule, it's been around a few years. You combat it two ways:
1) your offensive players know their packages and pay attention on the sidelines to the package being called for
2) if the D pulls the "old farts in Shoprite" routine, you hit them with Nascar tempo next series, like USF. You don't let the D sub out at all and gas their asses down the field.
1) your offensive players know their packages and pay attention on the sidelines to the package being called for
2) if the D pulls the "old farts in Shoprite" routine, you hit them with Nascar tempo next series, like USF. You don't let the D sub out at all and gas their asses down the field.
They’re allowing the defense to effectively force the offense to use a timeout or be penalized 5 yards. Ridiculous interpretation of a rule. They should hold the play clock at 5 seconds or something, then start it when everyone is set.
Unrelated, but I would not be shocked if the "tush push"
is made illegal
Maybe not right away, but somewhere down the line
I liken it to the change where a defender cannot climb up on a teammate attempting to block a field goal
In both cases one uses another teammate in what should be considered an unfair manner
is made illegal
Maybe not right away, but somewhere down the line
I liken it to the change where a defender cannot climb up on a teammate attempting to block a field goal
In both cases one uses another teammate in what should be considered an unfair manner
Bottom line, the existing rule is very poorly written.
I could be wrong, but I believe that the rule also states that the defense must “react promptly” with its changes. A lot of calls on the field are rightly judgment calls. This shouldn’t be one of them.
This is what I was mentioning about Gundy from a couple years ago.
According to the rules, if the offense substitutes, defenses must be allowed time to sub, too. As the Cowboys shuffled players on and off at a leisurely pace, seconds on the play clock dwindled. TCU quarterback Max Duggan didn't have time to snap the ball before time expired, forcing TCU to call timeout.
“Slow jog,” defensive end Collin Oliver said. “That’s what we’re told. Slow jog off, slow jog on. If the officials aren’t on your side they want you to hustle on a little more than you normally would.”
It was the latest example of OSU using a rule coach Mike Gundy described as “a train wreck" due to its vague nature and increasing use across the Big 12.
The O’Colly reached out to Terry McAulay, a former NFL referee and AAC coordinator of officials, for clarification on the rule.
“The offense always puts itself in jeopardy when it substitutes late,” McAulay said. “The rules specifically allow three seconds for the defense to react to the substitution and that three seconds begins when the offense has clearly declared who is coming in and who is going out.
"Once the defense starts their substitution, they get to fully complete it with the incoming player(s) getting in position and the exiting player(s) fully off the field."
A twist occurred in the second half of the OSU vs. TCU game.
When the Cowboys attempted to substitute in the same, slow manner in the second half, OSU ended up with a penalty. The referee under center backed away before the Cowboy players running off the field made it to the sideline. It cleared the way for Duggan to snap the ball with 12 OSU defenders on the field, leading to a flag.
McAualy said the referee’s decision — which McAualy deemed correct — to step away from the ball came down to interpretation of “reasonable pace.”
“If the referee feels they are not doing so at a reasonable pace, McAualy said, “he will warn the defensive coach once, and if it is repeated, he will put the ball in play before they complete their substitution (if it appears deliberate the first time, then he can put the ball in play without warning).”
Gundy, who said the rule’s interpretation changed over the course of the game, suggested Monday that the rule is not working.
“There’s too much of a human involvement and human error,” Gundy said. “And I think the officials would agree, everything that we can do to take the officials out of the game where human error cannot be a factor would be better.”
Gundy hypothesized that a clock similar to the play clock could be instituted to standardize the process and clarify the rule. As it is currently written, “a reasonable pace” is subjective.
“There is nothing in the rule book that defines it,” McAualy said. “Defenses are always given the benefit of the doubt, but when it is as patently obvious as what I saw in that game, it really isn't a difficult judgment.”
Oliver said the “slow sub” is a tactic players learn at OSU. The Cowboys have benefitted from it far more than they have been burned, but McAualy does not recommend abusing the rule that, at its core, stands to give defenses a fair shot at matching up correctly against the offense.
“The matchup rule is intended to protect the defense and has worked very well,” McAualy said. “I would strongly suggest coaches who want to push the envelope should think twice about it. It's unlikely a rule change would benefit them more than the current process.”
www.ocolly.com
According to the rules, if the offense substitutes, defenses must be allowed time to sub, too. As the Cowboys shuffled players on and off at a leisurely pace, seconds on the play clock dwindled. TCU quarterback Max Duggan didn't have time to snap the ball before time expired, forcing TCU to call timeout.
“Slow jog,” defensive end Collin Oliver said. “That’s what we’re told. Slow jog off, slow jog on. If the officials aren’t on your side they want you to hustle on a little more than you normally would.”
It was the latest example of OSU using a rule coach Mike Gundy described as “a train wreck" due to its vague nature and increasing use across the Big 12.
The O’Colly reached out to Terry McAulay, a former NFL referee and AAC coordinator of officials, for clarification on the rule.
“The offense always puts itself in jeopardy when it substitutes late,” McAulay said. “The rules specifically allow three seconds for the defense to react to the substitution and that three seconds begins when the offense has clearly declared who is coming in and who is going out.
"Once the defense starts their substitution, they get to fully complete it with the incoming player(s) getting in position and the exiting player(s) fully off the field."
A twist occurred in the second half of the OSU vs. TCU game.
When the Cowboys attempted to substitute in the same, slow manner in the second half, OSU ended up with a penalty. The referee under center backed away before the Cowboy players running off the field made it to the sideline. It cleared the way for Duggan to snap the ball with 12 OSU defenders on the field, leading to a flag.
McAualy said the referee’s decision — which McAualy deemed correct — to step away from the ball came down to interpretation of “reasonable pace.”
“If the referee feels they are not doing so at a reasonable pace, McAualy said, “he will warn the defensive coach once, and if it is repeated, he will put the ball in play before they complete their substitution (if it appears deliberate the first time, then he can put the ball in play without warning).”
Gundy, who said the rule’s interpretation changed over the course of the game, suggested Monday that the rule is not working.
“There’s too much of a human involvement and human error,” Gundy said. “And I think the officials would agree, everything that we can do to take the officials out of the game where human error cannot be a factor would be better.”
Gundy hypothesized that a clock similar to the play clock could be instituted to standardize the process and clarify the rule. As it is currently written, “a reasonable pace” is subjective.
“There is nothing in the rule book that defines it,” McAualy said. “Defenses are always given the benefit of the doubt, but when it is as patently obvious as what I saw in that game, it really isn't a difficult judgment.”
Oliver said the “slow sub” is a tactic players learn at OSU. The Cowboys have benefitted from it far more than they have been burned, but McAualy does not recommend abusing the rule that, at its core, stands to give defenses a fair shot at matching up correctly against the offense.
“The matchup rule is intended to protect the defense and has worked very well,” McAualy said. “I would strongly suggest coaches who want to push the envelope should think twice about it. It's unlikely a rule change would benefit them more than the current process.”
'Slow jog': Cowboys stretching substitution rule
Sometimes, OSU coaches encourage tardiness.
www.ocolly.com
This is the first post in this thread that lists the "3 second rule",....... so if the offense subs early, the defense only has 3 seconds to do the same???This is what I was mentioning about Gundy from a couple years ago.
According to the rules, if the offense substitutes, defenses must be allowed time to sub, too. As the Cowboys shuffled players on and off at a leisurely pace, seconds on the play clock dwindled. TCU quarterback Max Duggan didn't have time to snap the ball before time expired, forcing TCU to call timeout.
“Slow jog,” defensive end Collin Oliver said. “That’s what we’re told. Slow jog off, slow jog on. If the officials aren’t on your side they want you to hustle on a little more than you normally would.”
It was the latest example of OSU using a rule coach Mike Gundy described as “a train wreck" due to its vague nature and increasing use across the Big 12.
The O’Colly reached out to Terry McAulay, a former NFL referee and AAC coordinator of officials, for clarification on the rule.
“The offense always puts itself in jeopardy when it substitutes late,” McAulay said. “The rules specifically allow three seconds for the defense to react to the substitution and that three seconds begins when the offense has clearly declared who is coming in and who is going out.
"Once the defense starts their substitution, they get to fully complete it with the incoming player(s) getting in position and the exiting player(s) fully off the field."
A twist occurred in the second half of the OSU vs. TCU game.
When the Cowboys attempted to substitute in the same, slow manner in the second half, OSU ended up with a penalty. The referee under center backed away before the Cowboy players running off the field made it to the sideline. It cleared the way for Duggan to snap the ball with 12 OSU defenders on the field, leading to a flag.
McAualy said the referee’s decision — which McAualy deemed correct — to step away from the ball came down to interpretation of “reasonable pace.”
“If the referee feels they are not doing so at a reasonable pace, McAualy said, “he will warn the defensive coach once, and if it is repeated, he will put the ball in play before they complete their substitution (if it appears deliberate the first time, then he can put the ball in play without warning).”
Gundy, who said the rule’s interpretation changed over the course of the game, suggested Monday that the rule is not working.
“There’s too much of a human involvement and human error,” Gundy said. “And I think the officials would agree, everything that we can do to take the officials out of the game where human error cannot be a factor would be better.”
Gundy hypothesized that a clock similar to the play clock could be instituted to standardize the process and clarify the rule. As it is currently written, “a reasonable pace” is subjective.
“There is nothing in the rule book that defines it,” McAualy said. “Defenses are always given the benefit of the doubt, but when it is as patently obvious as what I saw in that game, it really isn't a difficult judgment.”
Oliver said the “slow sub” is a tactic players learn at OSU. The Cowboys have benefitted from it far more than they have been burned, but McAualy does not recommend abusing the rule that, at its core, stands to give defenses a fair shot at matching up correctly against the offense.
“The matchup rule is intended to protect the defense and has worked very well,” McAualy said. “I would strongly suggest coaches who want to push the envelope should think twice about it. It's unlikely a rule change would benefit them more than the current process.”
'Slow jog': Cowboys stretching substitution rule
Sometimes, OSU coaches encourage tardiness.
No
It's once the offensive substitution is complete they have 3 secs to begin their defensive substitutions. A complete offensive substitution is only completed when all those being substituted for have left the field of play.
A defensive substitution starts only when the first player to substitute in enters the field of play.
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It’s important to remember there is a coach in the booth whose job it is to keep track of who is on the field for the other team. So that coach has to see who runs on. Then radio down to sidelines to let them know the package that’s in and then the coaches need to relay it to the players to sub in and out.
The 5 second rule when one drops a cookie is easier to understand! 😀
We've done the slow jog to other teams dating back two seasons now. #71 is a master at it.
Rule needs to be changed bc you're gonna see these shenanigans more frequently across the sport. Can't blame defenses for doing it bc it's not fair that offenses have been getting away with late subs for over a decade now and the defenses are at a disadvantage trying to match personnel on a dime.
CFB needs to take a page out of the NFL on this. It's no coincidence that they don't have this issue in the NFL.
Rule needs to be changed bc you're gonna see these shenanigans more frequently across the sport. Can't blame defenses for doing it bc it's not fair that offenses have been getting away with late subs for over a decade now and the defenses are at a disadvantage trying to match personnel on a dime.
CFB needs to take a page out of the NFL on this. It's no coincidence that they don't have this issue in the NFL.
I can't wait for them to come to their senses about the rugby scrum that they're currently allowing. It's just plain stupid.
