Cliff’s 2023 Usage

[RUsojo]

Last year pike/knight made posting up cliff way too big a part of the offense.

We get a little more athletic at guard and I’m hopeful we run a little bit more, and use more heavy high ball screen action similar to the down the stretch offense of 2021.

Does cliffs flirting with pro ball and the feedback he got/pro role lead to a discussion between him and pike/knight and turn into less post up play?

I think if that happens (and think it will to a degree at least) this team can get back to the tournament as it’s a slight better roster than last year imo.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

I have no problem with continuing to feed Cliff in the post, as long as we see some improvement in these areas:

1. Passing out of the post. The scouting report on Cliff was clear last year. Throw a double at him, NOT because he's a dynamic scorer, but rather a turnover machine when doubled.
2. Shot selection - Way too many forced, unbalanced shots. I hope we've seen the last of Cliff trying to score from behind the backboard. This ties into #1. Make a good pass rather than forcing a shot.
3. Add some variety to the offensive arsenal. And NO, this does not mean shooting jumpers. If Cliff can refine his offensive game from inside of 8-10 feet, we're golden. His hands/touch are the weakest part of his game IMO. This isn't easy to improve.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Last year pike/knight made posting up cliff way too big a part of the offense.

We get a little more athletic at guard and I’m hopeful we run a little bit more, and use more heavy high ball screen action similar to the down the stretch offense of 2021.

Does cliffs flirting with pro ball and the feedback he got/pro role lead to a discussion between him and pike/knight and turn into less post up play?

I think if that happens (and think it will to a degree at least) this team can get back to the tournament as it’s a slight better roster than last year imo.

THANK YOU! Great idea for a thread.
Not posting up Cliff so much would be one of the simplest changes to make the offense more efficient.
Cliff went from a 62% shooter 2 years ago to 50% last year - get him moving, not posting up, unless he has a mismatch
In addition to fewer post-ups - please let someone else besides Cliff set a ball screen or do a handoff
I hope they put Paul in that spot (and the spot doesn't always have to be center/top of key)
Paul in that spot can be a playmaker like Draymond Green

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

How about having Cliff add a few moves (like a competent drop step) to his arsenal and working on him feeling where the double team is coming from.

Another thing to add is having Cliff be in the best shape of his life.

 

[MiloTalon13]

from: https://cbbanalytics.com (sign in required, but it's free for this stuff)

last season Cliff was:
128/202 63.4% at the rim
36/92 39.1% in the paint (and not at the rim)
11/37 29.7% on 2's outside the paint
4/22 18.2% from 3

Cliff previous season:
121/165 73.3% at the rim
26/48 54.2% in the paint
13/39 33.3% on 2's outside the paint
1/5 20% from 3

Assists to Cliff by passer last two seasons
Paul - 43 last year 56 two years ago
Caleb 18 last year, 16 two years ago
Geo - 36
Ron - 16
Cam - 30
Derek - 12

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

With 1 stationary jump shooter (Spencer) another corner 3 point shooter (Hyatt) and guards that could not generate any offense off the dribble to change the angles to help Cliff, it limits what you could do to help the others on offense.

Posting Cliff was based to help the stationary players around him, not by design of the offense. Common sense would show the more versatile players who can create off the dribble (Geo and RHJ), directly impacts Cliffs performance, FG % and quality of looks at the basket.

People keep asking for Cliff to "get better", when the guards last year were as much responsible for Cliffs decrease in quality opportunities.

I'm going to continue to emphasize, that Fernandes, Simpson and I have to assume Davis or whatever additional guard beyond Mulcahy, will increase Cliffs efficiency. Spencer, despite his shooting percentages appearing to be strong, was just too limited in his ability to get shots off without a very long time to set his feet, before shooting.

Compare Spencer to the freshman guards at Purdue playing with Edey and it's night and day different, to Loyer and Braden Smith on catch and shoot or "2-man game", with either guard and Edey.

Edey is also a poor passer out of double teams, but Painter placed better guards around him, which is why Purdue exceeded expectations, despite playing with 2 freshman guards.

The more minutes, Fernandes, Simpson and Davis or the other potential guard play and can generate offense 1 on 1, to draw help, will increase Cliffs effectiveness.

 

[High Quality H2O]

from: https://cbbanalytics.com (sign in required, but it's free for this stuff)

last season Cliff was:
128/202 63.4% at the rim
36/92 39.1% in the paint (and not at the rim)
11/37 29.7% on 2's outside the paint
4/22 18.2% from 3

Cliff previous season:
121/165 73.3% at the rim
26/48 54.2% in the paint
13/39 33.3% on 2's outside the paint
1/5 20% from 3

Thanks for the homework.

Looks like the numerators at least in the first three stat lines are very close.

128 vs 121
36 vs 26
13 vs 11

I want to read that as he made all the same shots last year as the prior year.
He just forced a whole bunch more bad ones that he hadn't previously.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Thanks for the homework.

Looks like the numerators at least in the first three stat lines are very close.

128 vs 121
36 vs 26
13 vs 11

I want to read that as he made all the same shots last year as the prior year.
He just forced a whole bunch more bad ones that he hadn't previously.

That's very charitable of you 😃
I look at it as: Cliff got the ball a lot more and it didn't go well. Please go back to using him like the year before.

Maybe it was personnel dependent. Maybe Pike made Cliff promises to get him back.
I don't know, but whatever the reason, it didn't go well.

 

[zebnatto]

I have no problem with continuing to feed Cliff in the post, as long as we see some improvement in these areas:

1. Passing out of the post. The scouting report on Cliff was clear last year. Throw a double at him, NOT because he's a dynamic scorer, but rather a turnover machine when doubled.
2. Shot selection - Way too many forced, unbalanced shots. I hope we've seen the last of Cliff trying to score from behind the backboard. This ties into #1. Make a good pass rather than forcing a shot.
3. Add some variety to the offensive arsenal. And NO, this does not mean shooting jumpers. If Cliff can refine his offensive game from inside of 8-10 feet, we're golden. His hands/touch are the weakest part of his game IMO. This isn't easy to improve.

ESP agree w Point one: Cliff wasn’t getting doubled because we were forcing opponents’ hands but because we were giving them a gift.

 

[seansherm]

There was nothing surprising about Cliff's "regression" last year. We knew teams were going to impede his path straight to the rim and that he'd need to play out of the post a little more. The thing that surprised me was that once we put the ball in Derek's hands, Cliff actually scored less than he had been prior. Haven't gone back to watch, so no idea if that was because Cam's shot making went up, or Derek didn't make Cliff as much a focal point or combinations of many things.

@NewJerseyHawk mentions the guard play above. We haven't upgraded like Purdue did last year. Loyer was a four star, Smith was Indiana's Mr. Basketball. If we had Noah and Cam, things would be improved to help Cliff. Right now we still need a 2/3 that can create or shoot. I don't like to put any expectations on freshman, and am already counting on GG to replicate the offensive points that Caleb provided. I can't put expectations on Davis also, just match Miller.

 

[Rufaninga]

Based on personel, we were better defensively compared to offensively. Coaches knew we wouldn't win many shootouts, so they put in a better defensive lineup to try to limit scoring to under 65.

How often did Cliff get double teamed in the paint with Caleb, Mag, Cam & Paul on the floor?

Can was streaky & good when on, but if he struggled early, who else did the other team need to focus on?

We get some playmakers that can shoot in our lineup and the paint gets way less crowded & Cliff will be fine. Also, last year he had to learn to deal with double teams & will be better prepared for it this year.

 

[S_Janowski]

We forced it into Cliff and the post way too often last year.

On top of that, we were often feeding him the ball with little time left on the clock (6-8 seconds) pretty far away from the basket, almost setting us up for failure.

Agree with OP we need to see more ball screen with Cliff and less posting up, unless he really improves his touch/moves and we get him the ball sooner.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

When you think of a triangle it gives 2 places, 2 unique angles to pass to. Last year with only Cam as a competent catch and shoot guy it was challenging. Too many times Cliff thought the best outcome was to quick catch and make a move before/as the double came. A lot of times our success came down to oppnent's scouting to guess where to bring the double.

I'd love to see us get down the floor quickly and work Cliff down low with multiple quick passes (IN AND THEN QUICKLY BACK OUT) going in to the post.

1. It slows the double team
2. Allows Cliff to reposition even lower

 

[MiloTalon13]

We forced it into Cliff and the post way too often last year.

On top of that, we were often feeding him the ball with little time left on the clock (6-8 seconds) pretty far away from the basket, almost setting us up for failure.

Agree with OP we need to see more ball screen with Cliff and less posting up, unless he really improves his touch/moves and we get him the ball sooner.

So many problems with our offense last year. Cliff ran to the block or steps off it and posted up. Which is a horrible way to post up. I don't think he should post up at all unless he has a mismatch, but if he does we should run some action - screen away, or back screen or screen the screener, to get him on the block. We had nothing like that.

We also ran too much ball screen with Cliff, we should have Cliff in the dunker spot just as much as the screener spot and have had Cam or Mag or Paul setting ball screens.
Cam for pick and pop would have been beautiful. Hopefully we see Griffiths do that, he's a weapon on that and could get Paul, Noah, Derek going down hill off it because his man can't hedge.

 

[NickRU714]

We've already gone over this.

After "3pt Clif" this past season, this season will be "Point Clif" bringing the ball up, driving from the perimeter.

On a serious note, are we sure we don't want Clif posting up?
Not exactly comfortable with him 20ft from the basket looking to score off the dribble.

 

[MiloTalon13]

We've already gone over this.

After "3pt Clif" this past season, this season will be "Point Clif" bringing the ball up, driving from the perimeter.

On a serious note, are we sure we don't want Clif posting up?
Not exactly comfortable with him 20ft from the basket looking to score off the dribble.

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I hadn't seen that. Hilarious.

Maybe a little something lost in Cliff's English? Like Cliff meant ballhandling, as in better passing, handoffs and decision making and it came across as bringing the ball up the court? Pure speculation (and hope) on my part.

Hopefully Cliff doesn't actually think that about bringing the ball up.

 

[richthedentist]

How about having Cliff add a few moves (like a competent drop step) to his arsenal and working on him feeling where the double team is coming from.

Another thing to add is having Cliff be in the best shape of his life.

Yes he doesn’t have that so many times he gets the ball and goes one way if he just reverses himself he would have so many more dunks
Unfortunately his b-ball IQ is just not that high
He can’t handle the high screen on defense and many times caused other defenders to have to rotate and ultimately leave someone wide open
Another is he is not good at boxing out and gets most of his rebounds on sheer athleticism

 

[RUsojo]

There was nothing surprising about Cliff's "regression" last year. We knew teams were going to impede his path straight to the rim and that he'd need to play out of the post a little more. The thing that surprised me was that once we put the ball in Derek's hands, Cliff actually scored less than he had been prior. Haven't gone back to watch, so no idea if that was because Cam's shot making went up, or Derek didn't make Cliff as much a focal point or combinations of many things.

@NewJerseyHawk mentions the guard play above. We haven't upgraded like Purdue did last year. Loyer was a four star, Smith was Indiana's Mr. Basketball. If we had Noah and Cam, things would be improved to help Cliff. Right now we still need a 2/3 that can create or shoot. I don't like to put any expectations on freshman, and am already counting on GG to replicate the offensive points that Caleb provided. I can't put expectations on Davis also, just match Miller.

If Davis can only match miller that guard depth beyond 24 is in trouble. Hopefully he can easily surpass his contributions.

 

[RU84]

With Fernandes, Simpson and Davis we should be able to run more pick and roll with Cliff.

 

[Scangg]

Cliff will never be a low post offensive threat at the next level. Get him on the high ball screens rolling to the basket where he can use his athleticism instead of low post skills

I thought we would see the high ball screen PnR all season last year but we really got away from it for some reason until the end when Simpson played more. Possibly due to Paul being injured and less effective off it

I want to see how Fernandes and Cliff look with it next season

 

[RUsojo]

Cliff will never be a low post offensive threat at the next level. Get him on the high ball screens rolling to the basket where he can use his athleticism instead of low post skills

I thought we would see the high ball screen PnR all season last year but we really got away from it for some reason until the end when Simpson played more. Possibly due to Paul being injured and less effective off it

I want to see how Fernandes and Cliff look with it next season

Paul/cliff specifically from the wing would be a nice change of pace to mix up the angles.

 

[NickRU714]

How well is Clif going to be catching the ball on his rolls?
Or is the expectation that he'll mostly get the ball on alley oop dunks.
Not have to take any actual dribbles or be a threat to get the ball and shoot.

If he's not a threat to shoot even a mid range shot then he's not really effective.

 

[Scangg]

Paul/cliff specifically from the wing would be a nice change of pace to mix up the angles.

Easy way to get Paul going hard to his right hand

We ran a few plays where Paul looped around for a dribble hand off from Cliff going to his right in a couple games that was very effective then didn't see that play the rest of the season

 

[seansherm]

If Davis can only match miller that guard depth beyond 24 is in trouble. Hopefully he can easily surpass his contributions.

I'm only talking about this year, not his career. As I've mentioned many times, I don't put any expectations on freshman, already uncomfortable with having to depend on GG to mimic Caleb's production.

 

[MiloTalon13]

How well is Clif going to be catching the ball on his rolls?
Or is the expectation that he'll mostly get the ball on alley oop dunks.
Not have to take any actual dribbles or be a threat to get the ball and shoot.

If he's not a threat to shoot even a mid range shot then he's not really effective.

That’s the problem with Cliff setting ball screens he can’t do anything but roll for a dunk
Easy to defend. Prep for it and no adjustments needed
Compounding that is how he always set them
In the same spot

Vary the spots and have Paul, GG, Hyatt and Mag set them too

 

[MiloTalon13]

Easy way to get Paul going hard to his right hand

We ran a few plays where Paul looped around for a dribble hand off from Cliff going to his right in a couple games that was very effective then didn't see that play the rest of the season

Zoom action
Pin down to handoff. Beat Purdue with that
Great breakdown of zoom with some highlights from that game

 

[cm_13]

Zoom action
Pin down to handoff. Beat Purdue with that
Great breakdown of zoom with some highlights from that game

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Cliff is never going to be asked to be a low post scorer at the next level. In my opinion it’d be doing a disservice to him and to the team to keep feeding him in the post.

This video is exactly how I am hoping to see Cliff utilized next year, especially with a few more athletic ball handlers who can penetrate on the roster for next year.

 

[Knight Owl]

Cliff needs these moves. He’s never gonna be able to back down and bully big post players like Shaq did.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Cliff is never going to be asked to be a low post scorer at the next level. In my opinion it’d be doing a disservice to him and to the team to keep feeding him in the post.

This video is exactly how I am hoping to see Cliff utilized next year, especially with a few more athletic ball handlers who can penetrate on the roster for next year.

I hope the utilize Cliff LESS as a ball screener, still use him, just a lot less.
One - run fewer ball screens overall
Two - have other guys set ball screens, it would be a sin by the coaching staff not to have GG pick and pop - he's really good at it and could get Noah, Paul, and Simpson or Davis going downhill. Also just foolish not to have Paul set them and bet the decision maker in the middle of the court on the roll/early release

 

[The RUT]

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Cliff needs these moves. He’s never gonna be able to back down and bully big post players like Shaq did.

Lol do you watch the NBA?

 

[Knight Owl]

Lol do you watch the NBA?

Yes. Hakeem had a good season this year. I think he’s going to be a good player and if Jordan decides to play baseball he might win a championship or two.
And I wasn’t implying that Cliff will be dominating in the NBA any time soon.

 

[Knight Owl]

Lol do you watch the NBA?

The “vanilla shake” moves work as well.

 

[The RUT]

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The “vanilla shake” moves work as well.

I agree, Cliff needs to be like Joker

 

[The RUT]

Yes. Hakeem had a good season this year. I think he’s going to be a good player and if Jordan decides to play baseball he might win a championship or two.
And I wasn’t implying that Cliff will be dominating in the NBA any time soon.

Lol I thought you were being serious

 

[cm_13]

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The “vanilla shake” moves work as well.

Jokic was incredible tonight.

 

[Nycrusupporter]

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Cliff needs these moves. He’s never gonna be able to back down and bully big post players like Shaq did.

Given that Hakeem is the only one who has ever flashed these moves, I would not be very optimistic . . .

 

[Scangg]

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Cliff needs these moves. He’s never gonna be able to back down and bully big post players like Shaq did.

Everyone could use Hakeem moves lol

It will never happen with Cliff. He's just unnatural with the ball in his hands. I'm hoping for just a more consistent drop step and little hook, but he will never have elite post moves

 

[Knight Owl]

Everyone could use Hakeem moves lol

It will never happen with Cliff. He's just unnatural with the ball in his hands. I'm hoping for just a more consistent drop step and little hook, but he will never have elite post moves

Olajuwon credited playing soccer as a kid for his great footwork and I’m a big believer that cross training/playing different sports helps with coordination no matter what sport ultimately becomes the focus. Perhaps some baseball and football skill drills would help him and be fun at the same time.
As it stands now, Cliff is certainly making progress but I agree he’s still raw. I don’t think using the word never is ever a good take though. My left hand continues to improve even as I approach the age of seriously considering double rotator cuff surgery.

 

[Nycrusupporter]

Olajuwon credited playing soccer as a kid for his great footwork and I’m a big believer that cross training/playing different sports helps with coordination no matter what sport ultimately becomes the focus. Perhaps some baseball and football skill drills would help him and be fun at the same time.
As it stands now, Cliff is certainly making progress but I agree he’s still raw. I don’t think using the word never is ever a good take though. My left hand continues to improve even as I approach the age of seriously considering double rotator cuff surgery.

Given that no one has ever replicated Olajuwon’s offensive moves, I think never is a very fair characterization.

 

[Knight Owl]

Moses after his body started to fill out.