Evidently what is going on down there parallels developments in New Jersey.
attracting millenials with transit
attracting millenials with transit
I worked in Arlington for 2 weeks temporarily. It seemed to be to DC what Hoboken is to NYC. Very young city and a great alternative to living in DC. .Originally posted by virginiaru:
I live in Arlington,VA across the river from and can attest to how mass transit rail drives development. Clustered around all the Metro stations in Arlington is massive mixed use development which has created mini urban centers in Rosslyn, Courthouse, Clarendon, and Ballston. The same is true through out the Washington area and the car "lite" lifestyle is n demand. My son, who is a recent law school grad and has his first job in a DC law firm, wanted to live in VA yet be car free. He only looked at apartments which were in walking distance of a Metro stop. He now lives in Alexandria, VA, walks to the Metro, can walk to shopping. His friends are similarly located. I might add that its not just millenials. When I moved back to the DC area after living in the UK for 14 years a requirement I had was to be near Metro, Many older folks are downsizing and moving to more urban environments with Metro access,
Which shows why its almost impossible to square this circle.Originally posted by Upstream:
The new mass transit needs in NJ isn't to move people into NYC ... that transit already exists.
NJ needs better mass transit to do things like moving people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Morristown, etc.
Agree and disagree. Sure you can get into NYC, at about 1/2 the speed you should be able to get there, plus the existing train tunnel is EOL and will need to be closed for major repairs within about 15 years. There remains a huge need for more transit options into NYC.Originally posted by Upstream:
The new mass transit needs in NJ isn't to move people into NYC ... that transit already exists.
NJ needs better mass transit to do things like moving people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Morristown, etc.
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
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Local light rail might work. But not connections between walkable cities in NJ.Originally posted by Upstream:
But the ridership would be there. Didn't a feasibility study of a New Brunswick region light rail system determine that it would have one of the highest light rail riderships in the country.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I think we are agreeing. There is a need for improvement in rail service to cross the Hudson River.
My point is that the need for new transit lines in NJ is to do things like move people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Piscataway, East Brunswick. We don't need rail lines to move people from Piscataway or East Brunswick directly into NYC.
PWay to EB might be doable because of Rutgers. Going even out to SOmerville and you probably start to get to the point where there aren't enough people in that area working in PWay, NB, or EB to make the extension worth it, nor are there enough attractions on the route to have people use it for non-work trips (i.e. few people are going to NB for dinner and taking the light rail, like they might take NJ transit to go into the city for a night or like i use light rail for Os games.)Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I think we are agreeing. There is a need for improvement in rail service to cross the Hudson River.
My point is that the need for new transit lines in NJ is to do things like move people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Piscataway, East Brunswick. We don't need rail lines to move people from Piscataway or East Brunswick directly into NYC.
This would require a significant increase in the the state's gasoline tax. N.J.'s gasoline tax is one of the lowest in the nation, but still increasing the tax would take a considerable political life. Unfortunately (I seem to use that word a lot about our Governor), Christie wants to rely on smoke and mirrors.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
The first step of the next governor should be a massive increase in the transportation budget. Several bridges have already had to close in NJ due to their horrid condition. When New Jerseyans consider their daily commutes, it's quite scary. On top of the additional lines needed.
We have no choice as it stands BUT if the next governor were to legalize and tax marijuana...Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
This would require a significant increase in the the state's gasoline tax. N.J.'s gasoline tax is one of the lowest in the nation, but still increasing the tax would take a considerable political life. Unfortunately (I seem to use that word a lot about our Governor), Christie wants to rely on smoke and mirrors.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
The first step of the next governor should be a massive increase in the transportation budget. Several bridges have already had to close in NJ due to their horrid condition. When New Jerseyans consider their daily commutes, it's quite scary. On top of the additional lines needed.
Agree- what we don't want is a vacant line.Originally posted by derleider:
PWay to EB might be doable because of Rutgers. Going even out to SOmerville and you probably start to get to the point where there aren't enough people in that area working in PWay, NB, or EB to make the extension worth it, nor are there enough attractions on the route to have people use it for non-work trips (i.e. few people are going to NB for dinner and taking the light rail, like they might take NJ transit to go into the city for a night or like i use light rail for Os games.)Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I think we are agreeing. There is a need for improvement in rail service to cross the Hudson River.
My point is that the need for new transit lines in NJ is to do things like move people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Piscataway, East Brunswick. We don't need rail lines to move people from Piscataway or East Brunswick directly into NYC.
I think the difference is that Coastal Highway is much more of a highway than Ocean Ave and Ocean City itself is much more commercial. Lots of hotels. Attractions all up and down not only the 40 blocks of boarwalk, but the 150 blocks of Coastal Highway.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Agree- what we don't want is a vacant line.Originally posted by derleider:
PWay to EB might be doable because of Rutgers. Going even out to SOmerville and you probably start to get to the point where there aren't enough people in that area working in PWay, NB, or EB to make the extension worth it, nor are there enough attractions on the route to have people use it for non-work trips (i.e. few people are going to NB for dinner and taking the light rail, like they might take NJ transit to go into the city for a night or like i use light rail for Os games.)Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I think we are agreeing. There is a need for improvement in rail service to cross the Hudson River.
My point is that the need for new transit lines in NJ is to do things like move people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Piscataway, East Brunswick. We don't need rail lines to move people from Piscataway or East Brunswick directly into NYC.
I like terminals at EB and Pway with stops close enough to HP, Milltown, Edison and South Plainfield that other towns feel like they have skin in the game
To Upstream's point maybe you "tease" a bus route in the Morristown area that would run rush hours and nights when the dinner & drink crowd is out and see what audience you get. If none, you can cancel it without the PT haters getting all riled. If it's packed you have a case. But I don't think the audience is there. 5 minute drive from town there are literal empty fields and farms.
I also think a bus along Ocean Ave in Monmouth County akin the OCMD bus would do very well. You need the density.
And that's the way we like it.Originally posted by derleider:
I think the difference is that Coastal Highway is much more of a highway than Ocean Ave and Ocean City itself is much more commercial. Lots of hotels. Attractions all up and down not only the 40 blocks of boarwalk, but the 150 blocks of Coastal Highway.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Agree- what we don't want is a vacant line.Originally posted by derleider:
PWay to EB might be doable because of Rutgers. Going even out to SOmerville and you probably start to get to the point where there aren't enough people in that area working in PWay, NB, or EB to make the extension worth it, nor are there enough attractions on the route to have people use it for non-work trips (i.e. few people are going to NB for dinner and taking the light rail, like they might take NJ transit to go into the city for a night or like i use light rail for Os games.)Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I think we are agreeing. There is a need for improvement in rail service to cross the Hudson River.
My point is that the need for new transit lines in NJ is to do things like move people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Piscataway, East Brunswick. We don't need rail lines to move people from Piscataway or East Brunswick directly into NYC.
I like terminals at EB and Pway with stops close enough to HP, Milltown, Edison and South Plainfield that other towns feel like they have skin in the game
To Upstream's point maybe you "tease" a bus route in the Morristown area that would run rush hours and nights when the dinner & drink crowd is out and see what audience you get. If none, you can cancel it without the PT haters getting all riled. If it's packed you have a case. But I don't think the audience is there. 5 minute drive from town there are literal empty fields and farms.
I also think a bus along Ocean Ave in Monmouth County akin the OCMD bus would do very well. You need the density.
The Monmouth County beaches, like most of the Jersey Shore, are lots and lots of houses, with occasional bursts of boardwalk.
Yes. If NJ wants an OCMD, its got one down in AC. Its just gotta have the balls to slowly convert the ocean front casinos to hotels with shops and stuff on the boardwalk frontage.Originally posted by e5fdny:
And that's the way we like it.Originally posted by derleider:
I think the difference is that Coastal Highway is much more of a highway than Ocean Ave and Ocean City itself is much more commercial. Lots of hotels. Attractions all up and down not only the 40 blocks of boarwalk, but the 150 blocks of Coastal Highway.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Agree- what we don't want is a vacant line.Originally posted by derleider:
PWay to EB might be doable because of Rutgers. Going even out to SOmerville and you probably start to get to the point where there aren't enough people in that area working in PWay, NB, or EB to make the extension worth it, nor are there enough attractions on the route to have people use it for non-work trips (i.e. few people are going to NB for dinner and taking the light rail, like they might take NJ transit to go into the city for a night or like i use light rail for Os games.)Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.Originally posted by Upstream:
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I think we are agreeing. There is a need for improvement in rail service to cross the Hudson River.
My point is that the need for new transit lines in NJ is to do things like move people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Piscataway, East Brunswick. We don't need rail lines to move people from Piscataway or East Brunswick directly into NYC.
I like terminals at EB and Pway with stops close enough to HP, Milltown, Edison and South Plainfield that other towns feel like they have skin in the game
To Upstream's point maybe you "tease" a bus route in the Morristown area that would run rush hours and nights when the dinner & drink crowd is out and see what audience you get. If none, you can cancel it without the PT haters getting all riled. If it's packed you have a case. But I don't think the audience is there. 5 minute drive from town there are literal empty fields and farms.
I also think a bus along Ocean Ave in Monmouth County akin the OCMD bus would do very well. You need the density.
The Monmouth County beaches, like most of the Jersey Shore, are lots and lots of houses, with occasional bursts of boardwalk.
Keep your bus no closer than 71, tyvm.
We like our K-8 schools and no buses other than a NJ transit express to Newark/NYC Penn as an option to the train.
It could be - if it wants to shut of a big part of the market for beach goers.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
I want a bus! Uber is too pricey sometimes.
I think AC could be the more adult OCMD...aside from Seacrets and a few other spots OCMD is about families. Granted, Seacrets makes the trip worth it. Wish we had a place like that in NJ.
You're mostly right, but D.C. has attracted young people for decades before the millenials.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Ha. I think the millenial boom has been really great for Portland and Austin in particular. DC as well to a lesser extent. People have always flocked to NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, LA...but those three you didn't hear as much about people packing up and moving to until the millenial generation. I think it's a good thing if the cool is spread out.
True but I'd say DC is a much more dynamic city than it used to be, with more of a private sector presence.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
You're mostly right, but D.C. has attracted young people for decades before the millenials.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Ha. I think the millenial boom has been really great for Portland and Austin in particular. DC as well to a lesser extent. People have always flocked to NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, LA...but those three you didn't hear as much about people packing up and moving to until the millenial generation. I think it's a good thing if the cool is spread out.
It's a strange problem (if you can call it that) to have. We have a lot of underemployed people - though many of them are underemployed by choice. There are good jobs here - Nike, Intel, etc. - but many move here without a job lined up. I think a lot of people are working remotely, as well. They were calling Portland the city where 30-somethings go to retire, but it's getting harder to do that, because rents continue to rise, despite a ton new inventory. (The amount of construction/rehab is staggering). It's not a cheap city anymore - but I think you get a lot for your money.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Ha. I think the millenial boom has been really great for Portland and Austin in particular. DC as well to a lesser extent. People have always flocked to NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, LA...but those three you didn't hear as much about people packing up and moving to until the millenial generation. I think it's a good thing if the cool is spread out.
Sure - but NJ really is missing the OCMD, big condo/hotel complexes right on the boardwalk thing. Even Seaside, which is alot like OCMD in its attractions isnt like OCMD in its accommodations.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Yeah but you have to remember, when you consider OCMD in conjunction with the neighboring Delaware beaches you have a lot of different personalities like we have in NJ.
It wouldn't be the most popular idea in some quarters, but I would consider taking a few blocks and making an Amsterdam like red light district. I would get weed legalized. Make a real east coast Vegas. Give people an all year round reason to come besides gambling.
I agree that a NJ OCMD type destination might be AC's best chance for a strong future. But I also see a lot of work to be done. Admittedly I don't know AC all that well outside of my occasional visit so my comments are based on my limited knowledge.Originally posted by derleider:
Sure - but NJ really is missing the OCMD, big condo/hotel complexes right on the boardwalk thing. Even Seaside, which is alot like OCMD in its attractions isnt like OCMD in its accommodations.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Yeah but you have to remember, when you consider OCMD in conjunction with the neighboring Delaware beaches you have a lot of different personalities like we have in NJ.
It wouldn't be the most popular idea in some quarters, but I would consider taking a few blocks and making an Amsterdam like red light district. I would get weed legalized. Make a real east coast Vegas. Give people an all year round reason to come besides gambling.
And AC makes sense because they are already built up.
Vegas works because its year round weather makes it a prime convention draw. AC doesnt and cant have that - no matter how much vice you allow. Adults on the east coast who want winter fun go to the Caribbean. The more you emphasize adult stuff in AC, the harder it will be to turn its image around when the last casino shuts its doors.
This post was edited on 4/7 1:52 PM by derleider
The xyz-sharing thing is a passing phase.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
I generally agree accommodation could and should improve up and down the shore. What is changing though is that sites like VRBO and and airbnb are making hotels less significant.
I do think the east coast could use a vice destination. Weed is not legal east of the Rockies nor in the Caribbean. Perhaps prostitution is legal in some Caribbean countries but I doubt the scenarios are Amsterdam caliber of safety. I don't think it has to be warm either- Amsterdam and Denver and Seattle are not known for weather. Not saying it will happen but it would be a start to end the financial crisis in NJ.
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Weed is legal in DC but the sale is not. I think it's sale will be universally legal in my lifetime but I do think that it will be limited to certain areas, and those areas do not include typical NJ suburbia.
OTOH I do not think Amsterdam style prostitution will be legal across America maybe ever, and AC would be a great starting point.
Also I do think Denver has seen a significant bump in tourism after the law changed. What were people going there for before? Having been to Amsterdam, without the coffee shops and red light district it would not be on par with your major European cities like London, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, etc...people are not going to go to on bachelor parties or hang out in a hostel for days to go the Ann Frank and Van Gough museums alone. They could get improved food and beer in Brussels and same in Prague with the canals too. Like AC you need an angle- what is going to get a tourist to NYC or Philly to get on a bus or train and leave for a night or two? I don't think it's just better hotel inventory.
Have to agree with this.Originally posted by Scarlet Pride:
Creating a "vice destination" is not an economic strategy nor is it a solution to AC's problems. AC has all the vices you could want. Legalizing them isn't going to solve NJ's or AC's problems.