Final on/off numbers

[kcg88]

I went to hoop-explorer.com and sorted the on the court/off the court data for each individual player. I used filters of "top 250 teams only" and "garbage time excluded." Here they are ordered from best to worst.

Mawot Mag
ON: +15.6 points per 100 possessions
OFF: -4.4 points per 100 possessions
NET: +20.0

I'll use Mag as an example of what these numbers mean. For the entire season, our offense scored 100.4 points per 100 possessions. Our defense allowed 96.8 points per 100 possessions.

With Mag on the floor, our offense scored 103.7 points per 100, and our defense allowed 88.1 points per 100. That's where I get the +15.6 number. With Mag OFF the floor, our offense scored 98.3 points per 100 and our defense allowed 102.7, which is where the -4.4 comes from. Got it?

Cliff Omoruyi
ON: +7.2
OFF: -9.2
NET: +16.4

Jalen Miller (hoo boy do I love small sample sizes)
ON: +11.3
OFF: +3.0
NET: +8.3

Paul Mulcahy
ON: +4.5
OFF: +0.9
NET: +3.6

Team Baseline
NET: +3.6

Cam Spencer
ON: +2.8
OFF: +6.8
NET: -4.0

Derek Simpson
ON: +1.1
OFF: +6.1
NET: -5.0

Aundre Hyatt
ON: +1.4
OFF: +6.7
NET: -5.3

Oskar Palmquist
ON: -1.6
OFF: +4.4
NET: -6.0

Caleb McConnell
ON: +1.0
OFF: +10.6
NET: -9.6

Dean Reiber
ON: -6.9
OFF: +5.2
NET: -12.1

Antwone Woolfolk
ON: -8.6
OFF: +5.6
NET: -14.2

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Very interesting.....and yes this analysis has meaning.

 

[RUsojo]

I went to hoop-explorer.com and sorted the on the court/off the court data for each individual player. I used filters of "top 250 teams only" and "garbage time excluded." Here they are ordered from best to worst.

Mawot Mag
ON: +15.6 points per 100 possessions
OFF: -4.4 points per 100 possessions
NET: +20.0

I'll use Mag as an example of what these numbers mean. For the entire season, our offense scored 100.4 points per 100 possessions. Our defense allowed 96.8 points per 100 possessions.

With Mag on the floor, our offense scored 103.7 points per 100, and our defense allowed 88.1 points per 100. That's where I get the +15.6 number. With Mag OFF the floor, our offense scored 98.3 points per 100 and our defense allowed 102.7, which is where the -4.4 comes from. Got it?

Cliff Omoruyi
ON: +7.2
OFF: -9.2
NET: +16.4

Jalen Miller (hoo boy do I love small sample sizes)
ON: +11.3
OFF: +3.0
NET: +8.3

Paul Mulcahy
ON: +4.5
OFF: +0.9
NET: +3.6

Team Baseline
NET: +3.6

Cam Spencer
ON: +2.8
OFF: +6.8
NET: -4.0

Derek Simpson
ON: +1.1
OFF: +6.1
NET: -5.0

Aundre Hyatt
ON: +1.4
OFF: +6.7
NET: -5.3

Oskar Palmquist
ON: -1.6
OFF: +4.4
NET: -6.0

Caleb McConnell
ON: +1.0
OFF: +10.6
NET: -9.6

Dean Reiber
ON: -6.9
OFF: +5.2
NET: -12.1

Antwone Woolfolk
ON: -8.6
OFF: +5.6
NET: -14.2

Can you isolate to only games everyone played in/available?

 

[fatsam98]

When you say you used filter of top 250, does that mean our games against the CCSUs of the world aren't included in the numbers?

 

[RUsojo]

When you say you used filter of top 250, does that mean our games against the CCSUs of the world aren't included in the numbers?

Yeah if ncsos doesn’t matter why filter out the weak teams?

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

If you carve out the Q4 games, those remaining games are the litmus test games that are most relevant.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Wow thanks for that
I wonder what stats like that the staff uses
Paul right at team baseline

 

[fatsam98]

I think it would be interesting to see this up through the MSU game as well.

 

[Scangg]

@fluoxetine in shambles. @NewJerseyHawk in tears

 

[MiloTalon13]

The more I look at that the more it makes me think almost all our players stink.
I know they don't and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, yada, yada, yada
but wow - those are some interesting numbers

 

[kcg88]

With no filters applied our baseline was 103.8 on offense and 92.4 on defense for a +11.4 total rating.

Players:

Mag +22.3 on, +3.4 off, +18.9 net

Miller: +26.3 on, +9.6 off, +16.7 net

Cliff: +14.1 on, +2.9 off, +11.2 net

Spencer: +11.0 on, +12.7 off, -1.7 net

Mulcahy: +10.6 on, +13.2 off, -2.6 net

Simpson: +9.8 on, +13.0 off, -3.2 net

Woolfolk: +6.5 on, +12.3 off, -5.8 net

Reiber: +5.6 on, +12.3 off, -6.7 net

Palmquist: +3.3 on, +12.6 off, -9.0 net

McConnell: +6.6 on, +21.3 off, -14.7 net

 

[fatsam98]

With no filters applied our baseline was 103.8 on offense and 92.4 on defense for a +11.4 total rating.

Players:

Mag +22.3 on, +3.4 off, +18.9 net

Miller: +26.3 on, +9.6 off, +16.7 net

Cliff: +14.1 on, +2.9 off, +11.2 net

Spencer: +11.0 on, +12.7 off, -1.7 net

Mulcahy: +10.6 on, +13.2 off, -2.6 net

Simpson: +9.8 on, +13.0 off, -3.2 net

Woolfolk: +6.5 on, +12.3 off, -5.8 net

Reiber: +5.6 on, +12.3 off, -6.7 net

Palmquist: +3.3 on, +12.6 off, -9.0 net

McConnell: +6.6 on, +21.3 off, -14.7 net

Presumably Caleb at the bottom there because he missed most of the cupcakes

 

[kcg88]

Presumably Caleb at the bottom there because he missed most of the cupcakes

Correct. If you apply the filters of top 100 teams only, then our defense was better with him on the floor. Which is why it's important to not draw too many conclusions. However it is worth considering whether his defense (which was great) made up for how things got bogged down on offense with him.

 

[Scangg]

Caleb numbers surprising. Griffiths will only be a freshman but his offensive game is elite whole Caleb's defense is elite. It'll be interesting to see the impact of swapping out defensive stud for offensive stud at the 3

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The poster who was looking for a lineup change of Miller as the PG might have been on to something?!?

😃

 

[MiloTalon13]

Caleb numbers surprising. Griffiths will only be a freshman but his offensive game is elite whole Caleb's defense is elite. It'll be interesting to see the impact of swapping out defensive stud for offensive stud at the 3

Caleb is a warrior but I've thought he killed us offensively in a bunch of ways. These numbers back that up nicely

 

[RUDivision]

The poster who was looking for a lineup change of Miller as the PG might have been on to something?!?

😃

😂

 

[goru7]

Caleb is a warrior but I've thought he killed us offensively in a bunch of ways. These numbers back that up nicely

Yeah but coincided with Cam’s slump until the last 6-7 games and Paul ‘s disappearance offensive ly

 

[goru7]

Yeah but coincided with Cam’s slump until the last 6-7 games and Paul ‘s disappearance offensive ly

Look at Caleb’s # with Derek’s last 3 games . Bet it is a little different.

 

[RUChoppin]

Is there a way to set a date range, so we can see the games between 12/3 and 2/4 where we had a healthy roster?

For example, were the rest of the team's numbers better or worse when we had a full rotation, instead of having to stretch to cover a missing starter? Was Omoruyi more effective when the roster included Mag, was Spencer more effective when the roster included Mulcahy, etc?

 

[kcg88]

Is there a way to set a date range, so we can see the games between 12/3 and 2/4 where we had a healthy roster?

For example, were the rest of the team's numbers better or worse when we had a full rotation, instead of having to stretch to cover a missing starter? Was Omoruyi more effective when the roster included Mag, was Spencer more effective when the roster included Mulcahy, etc?

You can check various lineup combinations, but can't filter specific games.

But for instance it can tell you that (top 250 and garbage time time filter applied):

Cliff + Mag on the floor together (596 possessions)
Offense: 104.4
Defense: 89.1

Cliff + Mag both on bench (270 possessions)
Offense: 85.9
Defense: 108.3

Cliff on, Mag off (833 possessions)
Offense: 102.3
Defense: 100.8

Mag on, Cliff off (~140 possessions)
Offense: 100.7
Defense: 83.8

 

[Scangg]

How does this compare to BPM? Apparently Cam had an elite level score there of 10.4. My buddy says he looked up every relevant Rutgers player of late and its by far the best score also based on per 100 possessions

Mag 4.5
Cliff 5.8

 

[Scangg]

Box Plus/Minus, Version 2.0 (BPM) is a basketball box score-based metric that estimates a basketball player's contribution to the team when that player is on the court

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

How does this compare to BPM? Apparently Cam had an elite level score there of 10.4. My buddy says he looked up every relevant Rutgers player of late and its by far the best score

If you mention BPM again I will put your a$$ on ignore so fast your head will spin.

You will be hanging out with Ash catch em and Smails

 

[Scangg]

If you mention BPM again I will put your a$$ on ignore so fast your head will spin.

Lol why? What makes it not a good metric? How is it different than the OP? Seems they are both attempting to measure the same thing

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Lol why? What makes it not a good metric? How is it different than the OP? Seems they are both attempting to measure the same thing

If you think defense can be measured with steals and blocks BPM is for you.

 

[RUChoppin]

You can check various lineup combinations, but can't filter specific games.

But for instance it can tell you that (top 250 and garbage time time filter applied):

Cliff + Mag on the floor together (596 possessions)
Offense: 104.4
Defense: 89.1

Cliff + Mag both on bench (270 possessions)
Offense: 85.9
Defense: 108.3

Cliff on, Mag off (833 possessions)
Offense: 102.3
Defense: 100.8

Mag on, Cliff off (~140 possessions)
Offense: 100.7
Defense: 83.8

This lines up with what I'd expect - it was apparent after Mag went out that the minutes with Omoruyi off the floor were brutal defensively in the interior. Our 2P% defense in games with Mag unavailable was pretty bad.

Could you do the same breakdown with Mag and McConnell? Very curious what our defensive numbers looked like with both on the floor vs. neither.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Lol why? What makes it not a good metric? How is it different than the OP? Seems they are both attempting to measure the same thing

It uses Box Score stats to measure plus/minus so Cam's steals are tremendously overrated.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

How does this compare to BPM? Apparently Cam had an elite level score there of 10.4. My buddy says he looked up every relevant Rutgers player of late and its by far the best score also based on per 100 possessions

Mag 4.5
Cliff 5.8

You need a new buddy

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

You can check various lineup combinations, but can't filter specific games.

But for instance it can tell you that (top 250 and garbage time time filter applied):

Cliff + Mag on the floor together (596 possessions)
Offense: 104.4
Defense: 89.1

Cliff + Mag both on bench (270 possessions)
Offense: 85.9
Defense: 108.3

Cliff on, Mag off (833 possessions)
Offense: 102.3
Defense: 100.8

Mag on, Cliff off (~140 possessions)
Offense: 100.7
Defense: 83.8

Paging Scanggg

 

[fluoxetine]

@fluoxetine in shambles. @NewJerseyHawk in tears

Meh, you're still wrong.

 

[Scangg]

Paging Scanggg

I hope you're absorbing this information

 

[fluoxetine]

You do realize that

(1) these are unadjusted numbers and Mag was healthy for all the cupcake games and missed like 10 conference games and an NIT game

(2) that no one disputes that they played far worse without him in the back of the season, and the arguments are about why, not what

Right?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

If these are unadjusted I might need a calculator.

 

[fluoxetine]

Yeah if ncsos doesn’t matter why filter out the weak teams?

When people say NC SOS shouldn’t matter, they aren’t saying SOS doesn’t matter. It just shouldn’t matter whether it comes from conference or non-conference. Looking at overall SOS and NCSOS double counts NC.

 

[RUChoppin]

You do realize that

(1) these are unadjusted numbers and Mag was healthy for all the cupcake games and missed like 10 conference games and an NIT game

(2) that no one disputes that they played far worse without him in the back of the season, and the arguments are about why, not what

Right?

Per the OP, it excluded cupcakes (teams ranked below 250) and "garbage time" (however the site calculates that).

What I found most interesting were the Mag/ Omoruyi comparison numbers, but I wish there was a calendar function to see what those numbers looked like prior to 2/4.

 

[fluoxetine]

Per the OP, it excluded cupcakes (teams ranked below 250) and "garbage time" (however the site calculates that).

What I found most interesting were the Mag/ Omoruyi comparison numbers, but I wish there was a calendar function to see what those numbers looked like prior to 2/4.

Good point, I missed that.

Regardless, I think (b) stands. None of the people who are on the opposite sides of this debate are denying the obvious fact that there was a sharp drop in performance that coincided with Mag’s injury.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I went to hoop-explorer.com and sorted the on the court/off the court data for each individual player. I used filters of "top 250 teams only" and "garbage time excluded." Here they are ordered from best to worst.

Mawot Mag
ON: +15.6 points per 100 possessions
OFF: -4.4 points per 100 possessions
NET: +20.0

I'll use Mag as an example of what these numbers mean. For the entire season, our offense scored 100.4 points per 100 possessions. Our defense allowed 96.8 points per 100 possessions.

With Mag on the floor, our offense scored 103.7 points per 100, and our defense allowed 88.1 points per 100. That's where I get the +15.6 number. With Mag OFF the floor, our offense scored 98.3 points per 100 and our defense allowed 102.7, which is where the -4.4 comes from. Got it?

Cliff Omoruyi
ON: +7.2
OFF: -9.2
NET: +16.4

Jalen Miller (hoo boy do I love small sample sizes)
ON: +11.3
OFF: +3.0
NET: +8.3

Paul Mulcahy
ON: +4.5
OFF: +0.9
NET: +3.6

Team Baseline
NET: +3.6

Cam Spencer
ON: +2.8
OFF: +6.8
NET: -4.0

Derek Simpson
ON: +1.1
OFF: +6.1
NET: -5.0

Aundre Hyatt
ON: +1.4
OFF: +6.7
NET: -5.3

Oskar Palmquist
ON: -1.6
OFF: +4.4
NET: -6.0

Caleb McConnell
ON: +1.0
OFF: +10.6
NET: -9.6

Dean Reiber
ON: -6.9
OFF: +5.2
NET: -12.1

Antwone Woolfolk
ON: -8.6
OFF: +5.6
NET: -14.2

Thank you for this …this kinda supported ans whabtiiedes a bunch of theories that my eyes saw ….

 

[Scangg]

When people say NC SOS shouldn’t matter, they aren’t saying SOS doesn’t matter. It just shouldn’t matter whether it comes from conference or non-conference. Looking at overall SOS and NCSOS double counts NC.

Not sure why this isn't universally recognized

 

[MiloTalon13]

When people say NC SOS shouldn’t matter, they aren’t saying SOS doesn’t matter. It just shouldn’t matter whether it comes from conference or non-conference. Looking at overall SOS and NCSOS double counts NC.

makes you wonder why NC SOS would be so important to the committee when it's completely illogical and should take anyone about 2 minutes to realize that