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My wagner take

RUSCFORMERLYRULOU

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Nov 12, 2017
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1. Most surprised with the traditional Pike D tonight - even against an inferior foe, it was impressive.
2. Acuff rounding info form, but it’s clear he’ll be a major part of the rotation.
3. Goodness Dercsck csn ball can’t he? Great defender and around the run guy.
4. The PJ Hayes hype is real.
5. martini with a real yeoman effort tonight including two threes.
6. Those threes will drop for J Mike in time. No mindless drives to the rim tonight. Ans the block sequence!
7. Latham won’t be starting in ten games - he’ll be starting next game. He should be. Amazing offense , rebounding and more than serviceable D tonight.
8. Wirh martini clearly going to be a stretch 5 at times, I can’t see Ogbole getting more than 8 minutes in some games.
9. Harper is all the hype!
 
I’m with you on everything except #6. JMike shouldn’t shoot unless wiiiiide open. He should only play for his D
I agree. We’ve got a lot of offensive firepower in this team. Hayes and Martini both looked super poised knocking down threes. If they can do that consistently we’re gonna be a really high scoring team.
 
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Interior D will be a problem until Ace is back and Lathan learns a little more. Can’t get out rebounded by a small Wagner D. Defensive rotations in first half were good ; second half not as good, especially on pick and roll. Overall better D than st. john’s although inferior opponent.

Offensively the ball didn’t stick too much which was nice to see. We ran a lot of dribble handoff to get the d moving into pick and roll, and some screen the screener with a baseline cross screen into a stagger on the weak side. Also ran a decent amount of pick and roll with Dillon.

Would like to see some more pick and pop with martini and more Hayes coming off screens and even setting a screen to because teams will stay attached to him. With Ace we ran a lot of horns action but not as much tonight. Will be interesting when Ace comes back if they run more because O think Lathan can be lethal at the high post with his passing ability and ability to put it on the floor.

JMike and Deridak need to stop driving so deep into the D. Even against the bad teams they get themselves into trouble. Just drive and kick the ball and force the D to rotate. When those two are on the floor with Jeremiah we have no perimeter shooting off the ball; these 3 should not play together that much even though those may be our 3 best defenders.

Dylan is such a great floor leader; had an easy 20 without playing his best game, especially from the line. I think Acuff can be a weapon once he shakes the rust off. Matrtinis a great glue guy that hopefully can hit a few threes a game like tonight and play tough d and set good screens. PJ was a great pickup and I was even impressed with his D. One of those guys that is kind of like a poor man’s Cam Spencer; can shoot and just knows how to play.

Overall you don’t take too much out of the first game except get something on film and learn from it. Was nice to get a 20 point plus win without a star and not even play your best game.
 
Interior D will be a problem until Ace is back and Lathan learns a little more. Can’t get out rebounded by a small Wagner D. Defensive rotations in first half were good ; second half not as good, especially on pick and roll. Overall better D than st. john’s although inferior opponent.

Offensively the ball didn’t stick too much which was nice to see. We ran a lot of dribble handoff to get the d moving into pick and roll, and some screen the screener with a baseline cross screen into a stagger on the weak side. Also ran a decent amount of pick and roll with Dillon.

Would like to see some more pick and pop with martini and more Hayes coming off screens and even setting a screen to because teams will stay attached to him. With Ace we ran a lot of horns action but not as much tonight. Will be interesting when Ace comes back if they run more because O think Lathan can be lethal at the high post with his passing ability and ability to put it on the floor.

JMike and Deridak need to stop driving so deep into the D. Even against the bad teams they get themselves into trouble. Just drive and kick the ball and force the D to rotate. When those two are on the floor with Jeremiah we have no perimeter shooting off the ball; these 3 should not play together that much even though those may be our 3 best defenders.

Dylan is such a great floor leader; had an easy 20 without playing his best game, especially from the line. I think Acuff can be a weapon once he shakes the rust off. Matrtinis a great glue guy that hopefully can hit a few threes a game like tonight and play tough d and set good screens. PJ was a great pickup and I was even impressed with his D. One of those guys that is kind of like a poor man’s Cam Spencer; can shoot and just knows how to play.

Overall you don’t take too much out of the first game except get something on film and learn from it. Was nice to get a 20 point plus win without a star and not even play your best game.
Shell, good to see you in a friendlier venue. :)
Note that Jmike was actually much better st not driving into the paint recklessly tonight. Indeed, on an offensive rebound on a missed free throw, he kicked out to Hayes for a money 3.
 
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Shell, good to see you in a friendlier venue. :)
Note that Jmike was actually much better st not driving into the paint recklessly tonight. Indeed, on an offensive rebound on a missed free throw, he kicked out to Hayes for a money 3.
Yes. I agree he was better but still has a few
 
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Offensive rebounding is a huge problem (I believe we only had 2 today versus a smaller team).

Other than that and foul shooting, there was a lot to like.
Yes, but when you shoot over 50% there are a lot fewer missed shots to rebound than when you shoot 34% like last year. (Just pulled that 34 out of the air, don't know what we actually shot last year).
 
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My major concern continues to be interior play. Defense , finishing and rebounding. Wagner looked like the superior team in the paint the first 10 minutes. Lathan changed that in a hurry which was super encouraging to see.

But if you watched even the first few minutes of the Indiana game after us , you’ll know we’re going to get absolutely abused and exposed inside against teams with legit bigs (like St Johns, Indiana, and half the league)
 
My major concern continues to be interior play. Defense , finishing and rebounding. Wagner looked like the superior team in the paint the first 10 minutes. Lathan changed that in a hurry which was super encouraging to see.

But if you watched even the first few minutes of the Indiana game after us , you’ll know we’re going to get absolutely abused and exposed inside against teams with legit bigs (like St Johns, Indiana, and half the league)

This, 100%
 
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These kind of early games like to see who can hit threes and FT; looks like we'll be ok on the FT's (Dylan will be fine on the line); and if JMike stops thinking he is a 3 point shooter - looks like Hayes & Martini will be our zone busters; and Acuff looks like he has a very good outside shot; so don't want to take too much out of this - other than either Martini starts at the 5 until Sommerville is totally ready to; which I prefer early on; or let Sommerville start & learn on the go.
 
I’m with you on everything except #6. JMike shouldn’t shoot unless wiiiiide open. He should only play for his D
Right. Good defender, poor shooter, poor judgment…same as last year. He wasn’t going to leave bc he wants to play with Ace, but Simpson with all his warts was the better player. Wish both left, truth be told.
 
1. Most surprised with the traditional Pike D tonight - even against an inferior foe, it was impressive.
2. Acuff rounding info form, but it’s clear he’ll be a major part of the rotation.
3. Goodness Dercsck csn ball can’t he? Great defender and around the run guy.
4. The PJ Hayes hype is real.
5. martini with a real yeoman effort tonight including two threes.
6. Those threes will drop for J Mike in time. No mindless drives to the rim tonight. Ans the block sequence!
7. Latham won’t be starting in ten games - he’ll be starting next game. He should be. Amazing offense , rebounding and more than serviceable D tonight.
8. Wirh martini clearly going to be a stretch 5 at times, I can’t see Ogbole getting more than 8 minutes in some games.
9. Harper is all the hype!
We have a Fab 3!!!!
 
Right. Good defender, poor shooter, poor judgment…same as last year. He wasn’t going to leave bc he wants to play with Ace, but Simpson with all his warts was the better player. Wish both left, truth be told.
Sigh. Just wrong.

There were no signs of poor judgment last night. Davis did force a lot of driving shots vs St John's. But did NOT last night. He drove and passed, kept the ball moving with making extra passes, and his 3 outside shots were all wide open. He even passed up a couple of open 3's to make the extra pass.

You cannot point to a single case of poor judgment (or more than 1 or 2) by Davis vs Wagner.

As to comparison vs Simpson... Different players. Davis is the better defender (elite, not merely good), the better rebounder and better at beating his man off the dribble. And even with all of davis' warts, Simpson was the worse shooter last season... I believe the stats from last year show Simpson was literally the worst shooter in the country amongst players with a certain level of usage rate. Simpson was a better FT shooter, but Davis does look improved there.
 
Sigh. Just wrong.

There were no signs of poor judgment last night. Davis did force a lot of driving shots vs St John's. But did NOT last night. He drove and passed, kept the ball moving with making extra passes, and his 3 outside shots were all wide open. He even passed up a couple of open 3's to make the extra pass.

You cannot point to a single case of poor judgment (or more than 1 or 2) by Davis vs Wagner.

As to comparison vs Simpson... Different players. Davis is the better defender (elite, not merely good), the better rebounder and better at beating his man off the dribble. And even with all of davis' warts, Simpson was the worse shooter last season... I believe the stats from last year show Simpson was literally the worst shooter in the country amongst players with a certain level of usage rate. Simpson was a better FT shooter, but Davis does look improved there.
Why is Davis shooting when wide open not poor judgment? Because teams are going to leave him wide open a lot. There are a number of players on the roster who are better options covered than Davis wide open.
 
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Interior D will be a problem until Ace is back and Lathan learns a little more. Can’t get out rebounded by a small Wagner D. Defensive rotations in first half were good ; second half not as good, especially on pick and roll. Overall better D than st. john’s although inferior opponent.

Offensively the ball didn’t stick too much which was nice to see. We ran a lot of dribble handoff to get the d moving into pick and roll, and some screen the screener with a baseline cross screen into a stagger on the weak side. Also ran a decent amount of pick and roll with Dillon.

Would like to see some more pick and pop with martini and more Hayes coming off screens and even setting a screen to because teams will stay attached to him. With Ace we ran a lot of horns action but not as much tonight. Will be interesting when Ace comes back if they run more because O think Lathan can be lethal at the high post with his passing ability and ability to put it on the floor.

JMike and Deridak need to stop driving so deep into the D. Even against the bad teams they get themselves into trouble. Just drive and kick the ball and force the D to rotate. When those two are on the floor with Jeremiah we have no perimeter shooting off the ball; these 3 should not play together that much even though those may be our 3 best defenders.

Dylan is such a great floor leader; had an easy 20 without playing his best game, especially from the line. I think Acuff can be a weapon once he shakes the rust off. Matrtinis a great glue guy that hopefully can hit a few threes a game like tonight and play tough d and set good screens. PJ was a great pickup and I was even impressed with his D. One of those guys that is kind of like a poor man’s Cam Spencer; can shoot and just knows how to play.

Overall you don’t take too much out of the first game except get something on film and learn from it. Was nice to get a 20 point plus win without a star and not even play your best game.
Agree the only negative was post D. Otherwise u can see this team has alot of talent!
 
My major concern continues to be interior play. Defense , finishing and rebounding. Wagner looked like the superior team in the paint the first 10 minutes. Lathan changed that in a hurry which was super encouraging to see.

But if you watched even the first few minutes of the Indiana game after us , you’ll know we’re going to get absolutely abused and exposed inside against teams with legit bigs (like St Johns, Indiana, and half the league)
I think (or know) that there's no perfect roster and YES Indiana has Ballo, Malik Reneau and Mgbako on the front line and they're probably going to gobble up a lot of rebounds or missed shots.

The same concerns about RU on the glass, would be extremely concerning if I was an Indiana fan.....Can Ballo likely guard a little bit more mobile freshman like Lathan Sommerville?? Sure he can, but this is the dynamic of why you have to sacrifice something to gain something better.

Ballo will own the paint and hypothetically, would have mauled physically a player like Cliff inside, if Cliff was on this roster. Cliff would have potentially gotten an additional rebound or two vs a Ballo or lots of bigs.

The difference is NOW, when Cliff sets a screen last year to help a guard, he had poor hands, couldn't dribble and could not shoot from 3. If you watched Lathan he set the screens at the top of the key, then flaired to the 3 point line and launched a 3.....How is Ballo or a traditional big man, able to step 25 feet away from the hoop and guard Lathan, if he can dribble, pass and shoot?? The footwork of Lathan is something we simply have never had at the 5 man at RU. Lathan pulling defenders away from the hoop...

A) Keeps driving lanes open for Dylan, Ace, Jeremiah, Derkack and others. The reason why RU was able to drive and score is because the lanes are open without a Woolfork, Cliff, Myles Johnson, Ogbole type player on the floor.

B) Lathan actually got paint points after he maneuvered himself into the paint, on his own, after catching a pass further away from the low-block. He generates his own offense and does not need a pick and roll or pick and lob, which is easier to defend, when it was Mulcahy and Cliff.

C) Lathan has better softer hands and showed more offensive fluidity than any RU big since when.....?? The first instance of having the guard actually trust Lathan and launch a down court pass, means the players know he has hands and can function in open space.....the reverse spin and footwork for the layup, was elite for a freshman.

I know rebounding is a huge concern, but so is scoring from the 5 position.....if we got scoring from the 5 position the last 2 seasons, it was mainly close inside on jump hooks or dunks. If we can get 25 minutes from Lathan, I'm fairly certain he is going to score 8 to 10PPG, most nights and he's not the focal point of the offense, without clogging up the paint.

I think we need the points from the 5 position to help when Dylan and Ace don't shoot well, much more than trying to outrebound everyone. It's not like Lathan isn't capable of grabbing rebounds, he had 8 last night.....he can't be the only one on the glass, but he's just as capable of what we got the couple of years on the glass.
 
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very interesting. I have to say i like dylan in the midrange and ace is pretty good there too but the rest should probably not be taking too many there

 
Lots of good to take away. Harper looks impressive as does PJ! Defense looks average+. Also, Jeremiah and Dylan looked more comfortable together. Some things to tinker while also remembering its super early-

1, Has JMike improved enough to get meaningful minutes? Still very wild and drives into crowds and shot does not look great.

2.Can we have a great season without a decent center? Is Lathan up for the challenge of BIG bigs? He seems like he is 6 7 and has more struggle weight than good weight. That can improve. Ogbole is not ready though and I am not sure if Martini or Lathan can play 5 effectively come big ten. They got bullied by an average Wagner team at times tonight.

3. Dordack and Jmike have to clean up his drives. Three offensive possessions were bad and those are expensive possession losses come big play. They can win or lose you games.


All in all, fun night and a lot to look forward to. It's the first game and the team will improve over time.
 
My take is we are not a top 25 team after seeing this team play a lousy Wagner team.

Wagner was in the NCAA Tourney last season, has a solid coach, veteran roster and returned players from injury (from last year). Although not nearly as good as BIG quality opponents, IMO they will not be as bad as you think.
 
Wagner was in the NCAA Tourney last season . . . .
Well . . . to give that a little more color. They were 7-9 in the NEC last year, landed the 6 seed in the NEC tournament, had a 3 game winning streak to win the NEC (only 8 teams in the tournament), and were dusted by a sleepwalking UNC 90-62 in NCAA round one.
 
Well . . . to give that a little more color. They were 7-9 in the NEC last year, landed the 6 seed in the NEC tournament, had a 3 game winning streak to win the NEC (only 8 teams in the tournament), and were dusted by a sleepwalking UNC 90-62 in NCAA round one.

Perhaps next time read the entire post. They were not great nor likely as terrible as some posters here are making them out to be. Time will tell as the season progresses.
 
Perhaps next time read the entire post. They were not great nor likely as terrible as some posters here are making them out to be. Time will tell as the season progresses.
I read the whole thing and it lacked the background that should’ve come with the statement that Wagner was in the tournament last year. So I added it. It’s odd that you find that objectionable.
 
very interesting. I have to say i like dylan in the midrange and ace is pretty good there too but the rest should probably not be taking too many there

Interesting chart ...

Notice how many MADE shots at or near the rim, and how FEW MISSES at and near the rim. Last year, finishing at the rim was a major problem for RU.

A couple of misses seem to be obscured, but what, 15-17 or 15-18 from the low post in, 1-5 from mid-range ... oh, just saw the bottom of the chart ... So, 15 mid-range it looks like, and with overlaps, 20-27 inside the lower circle ... HUGE improvement over last season, I suspect.
 
I read the whole thing and it lacked the background that should’ve come with the statement that Wagner was in the tournament last year. So I added it. It’s odd that you find that objectionable.

Not objectionable. Your details supported my claim that Wagner is not great but not as bad as some think.

Here's some more:
  • Wagner dealt with major injuries last season and only had 7 healthy players for the NCAA Tourney last season
  • NC who they faced was a #1 Ranking in the Tourney - made it to the Sweet 16 before getting ousted by Final 4 powerhouse Alabama
  • Wagner is projected near the top of the NEC for this season - currently ranked 280 in Kenpom. Again - not great but also not terrible for a mid-major.
As I stated - we will see how their season progresses.
 
Interesting chart ...

Notice how many MADE shots at or near the rim, and how FEW MISSES at and near the rim. Last year, finishing at the rim was a major problem for RU.

A couple of misses seem to be obscured, but what, 15-17 or 15-18 from the low post in, 1-5 from mid-range ... oh, just saw the bottom of the chart ... So, 15 mid-range it looks like, and with overlaps, 20-27 inside the lower circle ... HUGE improvement over last season, I suspect.

Rutgers shot 53.5% from "Close 2" range, excluding dunks, last year. That's wildly bad and their overall 2 point shooting percentage ranked 354 out of 362 Division 1 teams.
 
Not objectionable. Your details supported my claim that Wagner is not great but not as bad as some think.

Here's some more:
  • Wagner dealt with major injuries last season and only had 7 healthy players for the NCAA Tourney last season
  • NC who they faced was a #1 Ranking in the Tourney - made it to the Sweet 16 before getting ousted by Final 4 powerhouse Alabama
  • Wagner is projected near the top of the NEC for this season - currently ranked 280 in Kenpom. Again - not great but also not terrible for a mid-major.
As I stated - we will see how their season progresses.
Yeah, but you're kind of still doing it. You left out that their best player transferred to St. Bonaventure. He led the team in scoring, rebounding, steals and was second in assists. He's gone. Of note, he lead the team in rebounding as a guard, highlighting their lack of size for defense and rebounding down low.

And you conclude that they're not great or terrible, which isn't much of a conclusion at all. By B1G standards, they are bad. It is what it is. I still like this RU team and enjoyed the RAC and the game the other night.
 
Rutgers shot 53.5% from "Close 2" range, excluding dunks, last year. That's wildly bad and their overall 2 point shooting percentage ranked 354 out of 362 Division 1 teams.
Ouch ... that is bad when stated like that ... ouch.

Harper alone will dramatically increase the efficiency at the "close 2" range.

When Bailey is back, RU WILL show having taken a fair amount more mid-range shots - he takes a lot of mid-range shots.
 
Yeah, but you're kind of still doing it. You left out that their best player transferred to St. Bonaventure. He led the team in scoring, rebounding, steals and was second in assists. He's gone. Of note, he lead the team in rebounding as a guard, highlighting their lack of size for defense and rebounding down low.

And you conclude that they're not great or terrible, which isn't much of a conclusion at all. By B1G standards, they are bad. It is what it is. I still like this RU team and enjoyed the RAC and the game the other night.
And our best player sat out this game, so seems like a wash there, no?
 
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