N NJ HS Football Pub vs Non Public chaos
- Thread starter Abro1975
- Start date
It's the states fault. They require the Catholics to play a certain number of state schools in order to qualify for state playoffs. Many of these schools would be just as happy playing a national schedule. It's also ironic that DP is getting screwed here as they wanted no part of being in the Big North. They were more than happy playing schools like Madison and Pequanock.
I'm not sure Madison and Pequannock would want to play DePaul in FB, Wrestling and BB anymore now that DePaul has raised their sports profile and get the National Caliber kids like Kareem Walker, Kiy Hester , Q Alexander (Football), McFadden and others in wrestling. Only a few years ago, sure. Now? lol, I doubt it. The HS Sports landscaped has change dramatically in the past 5 years in NNJ. And I certainly don't know what the answer is. NJSIAA will certainly be changing the rules, if they haven't done so already, so that SPP(still plays Kearny, Ferris, Bayonne, LOL), Bosco, PC, St Joes DePaul , BC doesn't have the minimum in state requirement opponenets rule. OR just lump them all together, make them travel to play each other in one big Super Conference.
At this point only two things happen. The courts make the publics play the games (there is precedent with the old NNJIL having to let Bergen Catholic in the league). Or, the catholics just totally turn it into an arms race and pillage the public schools of any kid that has a modicum of talent. Schools like Depaul and Joes won't like that, cause they don't have the money the big 3 of SPP, BC and Bosco have. But this in between status benefits no one. The Catholics should form the super conference and refuse to play football, basketball and wrestling in the NJSIAA. Let the state suffer at the gate. Form a cable package and sell a "game of the week." And I'm not kidding. In SPP, BC, Bosco and now PC, you have 4 of the Top 100 football programs in America. You have 3 of the Top 35 wrestling programs. If the schools go all in in basketball, you could have national powers there too. Screw it. I would shove it straight up the public school's asses.
...it would be interesting to see if the Catholics go the way of the prep schools and form their own association/ conference. Hudson, you think they're just going to "pillage" the publics? IMO everything the Catholics cried foul about with Partridge is going to increase x1000. It'll become the AAU basketball version of football.
Joe P.
Joe P.
I think Pandora's Box will be opened if the publics force the catholic's hand. If you are going to make me travel to Nevada, California, Florida and Texas to get games, why am i going to place nice with your youth feeder programs?
Hudson, I also think they will attack and cannibalize each other. Kids will start becoming bargaining chips, prizes to be won, with people needing compensation to win them. The football will be great...I don't know what it will look like behind the curtain though.
Joe P.
Joe P.
"I think Pandora's Box will be opened if the publics force the catholic's hand. If you are going to make me travel to Nevada, California, Florida and Texas to get games, why am i going to place nice with your youth feeder programs? "
But there is no need to travel to Florida, Texas etc. Just travel to Red Bank C, SPP, Hudson C, Immaculata , Pope John, Camden C, , St Joes Hammonton, Holy Spirit, etc. Not to mention Bethlehem Catholic, Poly Prep NYC, St Francis Prep,Monsignor Farrel, other NYC Catholic sports powers plus the 4 or 5 Catholic Powers HS in Philadephia, All are within 1-2 hours away. It's doable . Hell, then you can even play Blair, Wyoming Sem, even St Eds in Delaware is only 3 hours away. I'm serious , recruit to your hearts content, give real out in the open Schollies, and have it become like D4 college.
This post was edited on 3/21 4:23 PM by Abro1975
But there is no need to travel to Florida, Texas etc. Just travel to Red Bank C, SPP, Hudson C, Immaculata , Pope John, Camden C, , St Joes Hammonton, Holy Spirit, etc. Not to mention Bethlehem Catholic, Poly Prep NYC, St Francis Prep,Monsignor Farrel, other NYC Catholic sports powers plus the 4 or 5 Catholic Powers HS in Philadephia, All are within 1-2 hours away. It's doable . Hell, then you can even play Blair, Wyoming Sem, even St Eds in Delaware is only 3 hours away. I'm serious , recruit to your hearts content, give real out in the open Schollies, and have it become like D4 college.
This post was edited on 3/21 4:23 PM by Abro1975
RUhudson, if the Bergen County Catholics were all in for basketball, it may not matter. Bergen County is not a hotbed of basketball talent. It never was, but it's worse than it ever was. Inner city stars have no interest in going to play for them. Neither do Teaneck kids - they'll go to St. Anthony or Hudson Catholic before they consider those schools. They would have a harder time with the inner city kids than they do in football.
vkj91 is correct about DePaul. They reached a fork in the road: do it the way we've been doing it and get our @ss kicked or join them. It's obvious they've joined them. Seton Hall Prep would come to that fork if they were forced into a Catholic conference.
Personally, it's getting closer to the day when you have a Catholic Conference of some kind. You can get the five in the Big North and add St. Peter's Prep and Seton Hall Prep. Get six games and have only three independent games instead of five.
Personally, it's getting closer to the day when you have a Catholic Conference of some kind. You can get the five in the Big North and add St. Peter's Prep and Seton Hall Prep. Get six games and have only three independent games instead of five.
Since when are they limited to Bergen County?
You think the current head coach at Hudson Catholic could go to Bosco, get paid $100k, and get 8 kids from Englewood, Paterson, Teaneck and Passaic to follow him there? Of course he could.
Look at what Kelly and Decker did at SPP. They went from a mediocre program to a program that has one kid on the fringe on the NBA in Ronald Roberts, another is a starter at Xavier in Miles Davis, a Top 10 player in his class in Nate Pierre Louis (now at St. Benedicts), a 4 star in Veer Singh (SHU commit), and another handful of kids that are 3 and 4 stars that left. And none of those kids were from JC. Roberts is the closest and was from Bayonne. Some of their core kids during the ascent were JC kids, but Lumpkin is from Montclair, Davis was from Plainfield, etc. These kids will travel. They do it in football and they'll do it in wrestling and basketball. But the football powers have to make the commitment to hoops.
If any of these schools go all in, they will be national level programs.
I totally agree that most of the schools that Abro mentioned have no interest in playing SPP, BC and Bosco in football. Why would Red Bank or St. John V want to travel 60 miles to SPP or 80 miles to Bosco and get run off the field in 9 out of 10 years?
The Catholics have the hammer because none of what is being talked about can withstand a legal challenge. "Relief" is given in football or concessions are made in basketball and wrestling because the Catholics feel like doing it. The minute one of the catholics has real issues filling a schedule, is the moment all this "relief" talk ends. Back when all this started, strong public programs still agreed to play. Now, what strong programs there are in North Jersey, are declining to do so voluntarily.
If the NJSIAA wants the issue to get a momentary life line, they should abolish the home state rule for play-off eligibility. SPP, Bosco, Joes and PC will go fill their schedule with 6 or 7 OOS games and then play each other for the other 2-3. They've all demonstrated a willingness to do that.
SPP plays Kearny because they need the game and what's the difference? They could beat a HCIAA All-Star team by 4 scores. WHO they play in the county is largely irrelevant. THAT they play is a necessity--they need the in state games. They haven't lost a county game in this century.
I don't think it is fair that the parochial and preps can recruit from all over the state.. or nation or even internationally.. and then force small public schools to play them. I can agree with Hudson that these recruiting schools should just play each other and not be part of any "state championship".
But these "small" publics are part of a conference.
Kearny routinely beats SPP in soccer, as one example.
This winter, SPP lost several HCIAA basketball games to publics.
SPP loses in bowling and baseball all the time.
Bayonne has beaten SPP with some consistency in volleyball.
SPP is in the Gordon Conference in hockey. The Gordon is the best conference in the state. It is parochial heavy, but does have some publics. SPP loses to them too.
This is a 2 sport problem for the catholic football powers--football and wrestling. That is really it. And for whatever reason, the Catholic schools that dominate football and wrestling, don't really dominate basketball or baseball (though Bosco and Joes have had strong baseball programs over the last decade.) But SPP baseball has either been very good (Top 5 in the state) or very mediocre. Same with BC. PC baseball stinks. Depaul baseball is average.
So, this "solution" would potentially lump every catholic school together. Problem is, very few of them are dominate in every sport. Schools that dominate hockey (Delbarton, CBA) are not national level programs in football. They are barely state level programs in football. And the issue becomes putting them into a catholic super conference presents the same exact competitive imbalances. SPP, BC, Bosco and Depaul will beat every other Catholic school in NJ in wrestling by 30 points. But nobody will care. SPP will beat Red Bank Catholic by 35 points in football. But nobody will care. The people crying aren't REALLY crying about competitive imbalance, because their solution results in competitive imbalance. It's just directed at someone else.
This post was edited on 3/21 8:01 PM by ruhudsonfan
I think it is inevitable, that at least for the muscle sports like Football and Wrestling, where recruiting from a tri state area gives giant advantage and puts public programs at a health risk, these Non Pubs will be forced into their own conference. Will probably eventually happen in the Non Muscle conferences like BB or Baseball where BB Roselle C, St Anthonys, St Pats aka the Patrick SChool and Baseball where SHP and Gloucester C simply get the best talent. It is inevitable, I give it 4 or 5 years of litigation and court decisions.
HCIAA HAMMERED Kearny over the forfeit.
If you are in a conference are gonna start going Rogue, simply because you don't feel like taking a loss, the conferences might as well pack it in.
That's exactly what's going to happen. These conferences are going to pack it in, due to litigation and the Pub vs Non Pub controversy. There will be New conferences. Essex County did it right with the Super Conferences , at least placing teams according to strength of program in individual divisions, regardless of student population.
HCIAA HAMMERED Kearny over the forfeit.
If you are in a conference are gonna start going Rogue, simply because you don't feel like taking a loss, the conferences might as well pack it in.
HCIAA HAMMERED Kearny over the forfeit.
If you are in a conference are gonna start going Rogue, simply because you don't feel like taking a loss, the conferences might as well pack it in.
While that's true, but Wayne Hills only gets kids from one half of Wayne and they have to fight to keep kids from going to the parochial schools while DP can cherry pick kids from wherever they want. So yes, the school is bigger but they have to work with what they are dealt year in and year out while DP can change expand their selection pool anytime they want.
Catholics need a local conference one way or the other. They could play a regional/national schedule for football, but I don't think that works for most other sports.
Separating wrestling so that the private schools are all in the same region is a dumb idea that has already been contested and lost. Wrestling is an individual sport and any attempt to sick. Region cheapens the state tournament by lessening the chance that the best wrestlers re included.
I think Hudson's 'Pandora's Box' metaphor is apropos here, but I also think that applies both ways. I see this as a 'careful what you wish for' entity for BOTH sides. If the Catholics were to break off and do their own thing ala the prep schools, I'm not so sure it'll be all flowers and candy for them. Ego, money, pride, etc will all play a factor. Half of the schools/boosters can't seem to stand each other, yet they're all going to magically work together in seamless fashion to set up their own governing body? They probably can't agree on what to have for lunch, nevermind where say a league playoff/ title game will be held...and they're not just going to recruit publics/ youth leagues. They've already started in on each other; that will only intensify. If they break off on their own, it will go into hyperdrive.
...and that's just for football. Basketball and wrestling will probably follow suit, although AAU bball will continue to wield its influence...and for the other sports, the NJSIAA isn't going to allow these schools to do whatever they want in football/wrestling etc and still be 'faithful members' in all other sports.
Joe P.
...and that's just for football. Basketball and wrestling will probably follow suit, although AAU bball will continue to wield its influence...and for the other sports, the NJSIAA isn't going to allow these schools to do whatever they want in football/wrestling etc and still be 'faithful members' in all other sports.
Joe P.
There is that and there is also wanting to stick around the Shore Conference like they do for most of their other sports. The FB travel thing is kind of a "newer" thing for those two. The State game travel is a given but why go over the Driscoll Bridge if you don't have to?
And for those of us old enough to remember it's always fun to beat (in any sport) those who didn't want you at the party to begin with.
There is that, and there is the fact there is no secret sauce to what the parochials do. If red bank wants to successfully compete with don Bosco, all they need so is act and commit themselves in the same way as don Bosco.
I am sort of a outsider here, but I agreed with RUHudson's premise leaving the publics behind, but disagree with his hostile "shove it up their..."
If the parochials what to go on their own, fine. Good luck. Publics shouldn't be subjected to their recruiting and deep pockets. As a player why should I go out their and get my head kicked in?
What am I missing? Let the parochials pound sand. And no, no one is going to pay squat to watch high school on TV.
The only reason HS ball is on ESPN is because my granother's cable bill is paying for it. She and a lot of people are cutting cable and telling sport fans to "shove it up their asses."
If the parochials what to go on their own, fine. Good luck. Publics shouldn't be subjected to their recruiting and deep pockets. As a player why should I go out their and get my head kicked in?
What am I missing? Let the parochials pound sand. And no, no one is going to pay squat to watch high school on TV.
The only reason HS ball is on ESPN is because my granother's cable bill is paying for it. She and a lot of people are cutting cable and telling sport fans to "shove it up their asses."
I think Moz's post in very poignant here. While the NJ prep schools clearly dont need the publicity/ 'prestige' from sports, at the same time, they have a ton of resources and run their own ship...yet we hardly ever really hear about how their seasons are going. Most of the coverage goes to NJSIAA schools/ sports (same with rowing- even though it's exploded over the last 15 years and does get some spot coverage for local races, it's not an NJSIAA sanctioned-sport and remains largely under the radar). As big as Beast of the East and the jr national tournaments are in wrestling, NJ kids are taught from their 1st year on that 'it's all about AC (the state title)'. As outstanding as Blair wrestling is, do we ever really hear much about it? Do upper-level NJ wrestlers clamor to go there?
Joe P.
Joe P.
vkj - You are correct here. Schools like Wayne Hills, Ramapo, Pascack Valley, Ridgewood, Northern Highlands, Hackensack and Clifton should not be afraid to play the parochials. All those schools are either regional or large city schools. Plus a number of those mentioned have family's move into towns (or have relatives use Grandma's address) specifically for the sports programs. Anyone who knows those kids know they are attending all the special camps and training programs due to the affluence.
People think the parochials recruit like it's college. Sure there are exceptions for a handful of kids, but most kids that play at the Big 5 pay their own way and come from small towns with crap sports programs. They go to these schools for opportunities to play sports their local towns don't have and for the exposure to college.
When all is said and done, it's all about football. The publics still dominate many of the other sports. All those years the large publics beat the crap out of the parochials, the parochials never complained. Time for the publics to man up.
Just like nobody pays 9 bucks a month for "insider access" to recruiting tidbits, 95% of which will be available in the public domain, 24 hours later.
oh wait...
The point is not about making a NJ Catholic School sports network to get cable dollars. The idea would be that local and regional cable networks are starved for any kind of programming. If you put SPP, BC, Joes, Bosco and PC in the same conference, and encouraged them to schedule 4 other OOS games against other regional and national powers, there would be a market for that programming. Would be people pay for it? Probably not. Would people watch it more than FIOS's 4th showing of girls field hockey? or Colt's Neck v. Marlboro? I think we both know the answer to that.
