New Jersey "brain drain" persists
- Thread starter justinslot
- Start date
Well RU has already grown by about a third in the past decade and takes a higher percentage from in state than just about any other school.
So, just on raw numbers RU and its lack of sexiness isn't the main reason. If anything we are contributing more than we really should be to keeping kids in state.
The main reason is that NJ is wealthy enough that people can afford other options. And it has pretty middling to bad second tier schools. If you dont get into RU or TCNJ WVU or whatever is a better choice than Montclair or Rowan. Thats not the case in a lot of states that have two or three (or more) good schools.
I agree with your overall point, but I don't think it is quite that stark.
Certainly there really is nothing else Rutgers-NB can do about this situation. However, Rutgers-Newark and NJIT are legit in state public universities (certainly at the level of WVU, anyway). Rowan is attempting to grow aggressively and Rutgers-Camden is already a decent small school as well. Main problem at both is the ability to live on campus, I think.
IMHO there is no "solution" to the brain drain in NJ. The reality is that it is a very small, densely populated state and its not like the existing universities are turning away overly qualified students. Its pretty darn easy to get in to the 3rd and 4th tier NJ universities.
Ongoing investment in facilities will help alleviate the problem. If schools like Rowan, Rutgers-Camden, Rutgers-Newark, and NJIT keep investing in dorms and better teaching facilities that will get more and better students. I assume the same is true of schools like Montclair, William Paterson, Thomas Edison, etc... However, this will take decades to change and at the same time its likely that the OOS colleges will also be investing, so it still might not make a difference.
JMHO of course.
William Paterson is in the middle of a massive facilities renovation/construction boom. Academics, in all seriousness, are pretty darn good. However, we don't "pull" kids away from the bigger, more esteemed schools. Very similar to Montclair.
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"Brain Drain" is a misnomer. It's strictly a numbers game. 30,000 kids leave each year, because all of NJ's colleges and Universities are filled to capacity and those kids have the means to go elsewhere. The article refers to students generally - not just the good students. RU (and certainly Princeton) get their fair share of top students. Can RU do better in that regard, sure. But it would not alter the "brain drain' to which the author is referring.
Don't you think RU is big enough? I would say the focus should be on better students - not more students.
The 2nd tier NJ schools could be grown, but the reality is that NJ just doesn't have that many seats, relative to its population, and the secondary options are not very compelling.
NJ should be focused on getting graduates to return there after college. If students go to school elsewhere, and come back with a great education, that is a good thing for NJ.
It has to do with jobs, but is also quality of life. Parts of Long Island have really tried to become more "cool" and "urban" because they know that's what smart young professionals want.
This post was edited on 7/24 1:31 AM by lawmatt78
While I understand the above bolded comment is true, my impression, from seeing friends and relatives attend colleges even though they were not really qualified. I have never gotten the sense that the kids leaving NJ to go to school OOS are the kids that just couldn't get accepted to a NJ school. My sense has always been the opposite...NJ's second, 3rd, and 4th tier schools are not very good because there are simply too many kids they just want to "go away" for school.
Which I think goes to the point in your first paragraph that NJ should simply work on attracting better students. One thing I would do is encourage schools to recruit out of state students. Just like a % NJ kids will always want to go OOS, a % of kids from other states will want to leave their states. However, because public schools in NJ aren't really able to recruit these kids (since most of them would not be allowed to come here anyway) it removes one tool schools could use to grow their selectivity.
I know it sometimes seems counterintuitive, but IMHO the best way NJ could counteract the "brain drain" is to give its state schools free reign to recruit as many OOS kids as they can. I don't think universities will have trouble growing to meet demand...particularly in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tier schools.
I'm pretty sure that you don't get automatically admitted from community college. That law means you get admitted to at least one of any of the NJ publics- and that your credits transfer.
Also, RC used to require that you have at least a 3.5 in community college to transfer. And I think that if not a similar bar is still in effect.
I think there are two factors- like Der said- there's the kids who can't get into RU, and then the rich people.
I don't view the non-RU and TCNJ as adequate options. All of them besides maybe Rowan are big commuter or suitcase schools. Some are in really bad neighborhoods.
Schools like WVU or the SUNYs don't cost much more out of state, are of equal or better regard, and have much more of a college experience.
And BTW- re: Long Island...most of those places don't hold a candle to Jersey City, Hoboken, Morristown, or New Brunswick in terms of transportation to the city, walkability (both Hoboken and JC are top 5 in America), bars and restaurants...NJ has some of the best public transportation in America. The 139 bus runs through the suburbs of Monmouth County practically 24-7...of two of the 4 subways that run 24-7, two of them, PATH and PATCO, are in NJ (other two are MTA and Chicago L). Every kind of food, every cultural, religious, sexual, racial, ethnic, demographic is represented. We have beaches and mountains.
People who claim to not find what they are looking for in NJ are sometimes just people seeking attention. Unless you need constant sunshine and heat, NJ has pretty much what every other state has, and probably has it better. I know countless people who "need" to live in NYC like it's a drug, meanwhile I live closer to the most happening neighborhoods, live in a nicer building for less money, pay no city tax, and everything costs less. It's more self-loathing than anything else.
Also, RC used to require that you have at least a 3.5 in community college to transfer. And I think that if not a similar bar is still in effect.
I think there are two factors- like Der said- there's the kids who can't get into RU, and then the rich people.
I don't view the non-RU and TCNJ as adequate options. All of them besides maybe Rowan are big commuter or suitcase schools. Some are in really bad neighborhoods.
Schools like WVU or the SUNYs don't cost much more out of state, are of equal or better regard, and have much more of a college experience.
And BTW- re: Long Island...most of those places don't hold a candle to Jersey City, Hoboken, Morristown, or New Brunswick in terms of transportation to the city, walkability (both Hoboken and JC are top 5 in America), bars and restaurants...NJ has some of the best public transportation in America. The 139 bus runs through the suburbs of Monmouth County practically 24-7...of two of the 4 subways that run 24-7, two of them, PATH and PATCO, are in NJ (other two are MTA and Chicago L). Every kind of food, every cultural, religious, sexual, racial, ethnic, demographic is represented. We have beaches and mountains.
People who claim to not find what they are looking for in NJ are sometimes just people seeking attention. Unless you need constant sunshine and heat, NJ has pretty much what every other state has, and probably has it better. I know countless people who "need" to live in NYC like it's a drug, meanwhile I live closer to the most happening neighborhoods, live in a nicer building for less money, pay no city tax, and everything costs less. It's more self-loathing than anything else.
Maybe I didn't read your post carefully enough, NIRH, but it seems internally inconsistent. On the one hand, you attack the non-Rutgers schools in NJ, thus explaining in part why some NJ high school grads go out of state (e.g. WVU is better than the non-Rutgers schools in NJ). Then you proceed to attack people who send their kids out-of-state -- even though you've just justified their doing so. Could you explain your point further?
As a number of posters have already said, the key question is, "which NJ grads are going out of state?" If it is grads who could get into Rutgers, then that's a serious problem for Rutgers. If it's grads that could not, then having them go out of state is not nearly as much an issue.
As a number of posters have already said, the key question is, "which NJ grads are going out of state?" If it is grads who could get into Rutgers, then that's a serious problem for Rutgers. If it's grads that could not, then having them go out of state is not nearly as much an issue.
my impression is actually the reverse. I think the state legislature mandated that the senior colleges take all community college credits, but that admission to a senior college is not automatic. Maybe someone knows the facts.
My issue with NJ parents is the rich ones whose kids get into RU or TCNJ, but they waste money on TTFP or BU or something like that.
My issue is not the people who don't get into RU or TCNJ and then choose WVU over another NJ public. It's hard to blame an 18 year old for wanting 4 years in Morgantown versus Wayne or Montclair. OOS Room and Board at WVU is around 28k. At Montclair instate, it's 25k. I know when USNWR posted their rankings they also showed tuition and there was a whole slew of really cheap but more distant universities. NC State for example looks to be about 30k a year. I don't blame these people.
My experience tells me it's probably 50/50 on the OOS and why, but I don't know how else to figure it out. I do know the top OOS schools were NYU, TTFP, BU, UDel, and Drexel. IMO, only NYU is really an academic leg up on RU by any significant measure, and UDel and Drexel are definitely not as good.
Also, camden, I'm pretty sure your understanding of the community colleges is correct. No one is guaranteed admission into RU. It's just the credits RU has to accept.
My issue is not the people who don't get into RU or TCNJ and then choose WVU over another NJ public. It's hard to blame an 18 year old for wanting 4 years in Morgantown versus Wayne or Montclair. OOS Room and Board at WVU is around 28k. At Montclair instate, it's 25k. I know when USNWR posted their rankings they also showed tuition and there was a whole slew of really cheap but more distant universities. NC State for example looks to be about 30k a year. I don't blame these people.
My experience tells me it's probably 50/50 on the OOS and why, but I don't know how else to figure it out. I do know the top OOS schools were NYU, TTFP, BU, UDel, and Drexel. IMO, only NYU is really an academic leg up on RU by any significant measure, and UDel and Drexel are definitely not as good.
Also, camden, I'm pretty sure your understanding of the community colleges is correct. No one is guaranteed admission into RU. It's just the credits RU has to accept.
Let's be clear about a few things regarding the Dual Degree Program. First and foremost, there never was, nor is there now, a "guarantee" of admission to any of the campuses of Rutgers. Secondly, students need to have applied to Rutgers and fulfill specific requirements to be recommended to the program. Only if the student attains a 3.0 GPA in the specific academic program at the selected community college to which s/he is referred AND attain the Associates degree would that student be eligible to then seek admission to Rutgers for the Fall semester after their CC graduation. More details can be found at:
http://admissions.rutgers.edu/applynow/MoreForFirstYearApplicants/DualDegreeProgram.aspx
http://admissions.rutgers.edu/applynow/MoreForFirstYearApplicants/DualDegreeProgram.aspx
Separately, I'll add:
We need to understand that none of the departments at any of the four-year colleges can be mandated or otherwise forced to accept credits from other schools to satisfy either degree or major requirements. Those who completed degrees at Rutgers College from the late '60's and early '70's will remember that, when Livingston College was established, Dean Bishop at Rutgers College would refuse to accept any coursework taken at Livingston for degree credit by students at Rutgers. Rather, he would recognize the credit as "General Elective Credit" but would add that same number of credits completed onto the students' degree program that would need to be completed through the Rutgers College Faculty.
In the same way, departments at Rutgers today retain the right to accept or deny credit taken at other schools outside of U based upon the content and overall strength of material taught. Thus, the Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy still holds the right - and exercises it daily - to require students who want to take an equivalent of Systems Physiology outside of RU to complete a full year of Anatomy and Physiology in order to receive degree credit for Systems. Thus, the kid who doesn't want to take Systems in the spring semester of their second year is welcome to take six credits over of the summer at a Community College - if Dr. Golfetti approves the other sequence. If he doesn't approve it, the student is SOL. And no "law" is going to strip that right away from an academic department.
We need to understand that none of the departments at any of the four-year colleges can be mandated or otherwise forced to accept credits from other schools to satisfy either degree or major requirements. Those who completed degrees at Rutgers College from the late '60's and early '70's will remember that, when Livingston College was established, Dean Bishop at Rutgers College would refuse to accept any coursework taken at Livingston for degree credit by students at Rutgers. Rather, he would recognize the credit as "General Elective Credit" but would add that same number of credits completed onto the students' degree program that would need to be completed through the Rutgers College Faculty.
In the same way, departments at Rutgers today retain the right to accept or deny credit taken at other schools outside of U based upon the content and overall strength of material taught. Thus, the Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy still holds the right - and exercises it daily - to require students who want to take an equivalent of Systems Physiology outside of RU to complete a full year of Anatomy and Physiology in order to receive degree credit for Systems. Thus, the kid who doesn't want to take Systems in the spring semester of their second year is welcome to take six credits over of the summer at a Community College - if Dr. Golfetti approves the other sequence. If he doesn't approve it, the student is SOL. And no "law" is going to strip that right away from an academic department.
To the point of the article originally posted, I seriously question if Assemblywoman Reily would like to explain why she left her home in Cumberland County, NJ to attain degrees at La Salle and Drexell in music and arts administration when Mason Gross was an available option at the time she was pursuing her degrees.
Another factor to NJ's brain drain is the state's close proximity to Philadelphia and New York (#1 and #6 cities in terms of population).
At least in South Jersey, there are dozens of options just a short way across the river in Philadelphia and the surrounding area. Within 15-30 miles of Camden, Burlington and Gloucester counties you have the following major schools:
-Temple
-Drexel
-St. Joes
-Villanova
-Penn
-Lasalle
-West Chester
-U Delaware
-Philly U
-U Arts
And then you have a bunch of smaller schools like Cabrini, Arcadia, Holy Family, Chesnut Hill etc.
Then you have the kids in Central/North Jersey with all of the close options in NYC and the surrounding area.
You can't compare a state like NJ which is very small in size and large in population with 2 major cities bordering the state to other states in the country. There really is no comparison except maybe a state like Connecticut (Boston, NYC) or Marlyand (Philadelphia, Washington DC).
I could care less about the kids that decide to go elsewhere for school. Let them blow their money on schools that are double the price as a school in NJ and come out with a degree they could have easily stayed at home for (the case for many kids). It would be nice to start attracting OOS students however. NJ is also bordered by large population's and only attracting 5,000 OOS students is pretty pathetic.
At least in South Jersey, there are dozens of options just a short way across the river in Philadelphia and the surrounding area. Within 15-30 miles of Camden, Burlington and Gloucester counties you have the following major schools:
-Temple
-Drexel
-St. Joes
-Villanova
-Penn
-Lasalle
-West Chester
-U Delaware
-Philly U
-U Arts
And then you have a bunch of smaller schools like Cabrini, Arcadia, Holy Family, Chesnut Hill etc.
Then you have the kids in Central/North Jersey with all of the close options in NYC and the surrounding area.
You can't compare a state like NJ which is very small in size and large in population with 2 major cities bordering the state to other states in the country. There really is no comparison except maybe a state like Connecticut (Boston, NYC) or Marlyand (Philadelphia, Washington DC).
I could care less about the kids that decide to go elsewhere for school. Let them blow their money on schools that are double the price as a school in NJ and come out with a degree they could have easily stayed at home for (the case for many kids). It would be nice to start attracting OOS students however. NJ is also bordered by large population's and only attracting 5,000 OOS students is pretty pathetic.
I dont think thats a huge issue. Otherwise we would see the same in reverse. There are plenty of other states near NJ that should be in theory reciprocating, but aren't.
I mean even if those schools are closer, they are much more expensive. So you still need a) money, and b) an incentive other than closerness to go (i.e. its considered a better school either acedmically, or at least its overall experience.)
I think Rutgers still has "Rutgers tracks' from Middlesex and Raritan Valley College that get you auto admission if you are in the track and have a B average. I know this existed and haven't heard of it being discontinued. It's possible it's only in certain majors.
*This is what I thought too. I knew of a few people during my time (mid 80s) who experienced it.
And I wasn't inferring by my previous post that there was any guarantee from RU (at any of campuses) that you had a spot if you came in with an AA or AS. But my understanding was if you did complete your AA or AS at a NJ CC you had a spot somewhere, might not have been at Rutgers but at one of the state colleges.
.
This post was edited on 7/26 5:10 PM by e5fdny
If the kid needs a B average, it's not automatic admission as most people would understand that term.
In response to Mkollar, I don't think the situation is the same now. The state legislature changed it. And beside, the days of there being a Rutgers "College" and a Livingston" College are, fortunately, done.
To NIRH, I would say there are lots of reasons why parents might want to send their high school grad to a BU or a PSU (this business of TTFP is childish), and so I am not prepared to condemn the parents. Rather, Rutgers has to figure out what it can do to make itself more attractive.
It is never going to change.
You're a kid from Pennsylvania. Penn State, Pitt, Temple, a slew of private schools and a lot of state schools no better than ours. Lots of choices.
You're from Ohio. After Ohio State and Cincinnati, you have Miami, Ohio, Toledo, Bowling Green, Kent State, Akron, Youngstown, all higher profile than anything we have after RU.
You're from freaking Alabama. You have Alabama, Auburn, UAB, Troy, Northern Alabama, South Alabama ... all higher profile than ours.
OK, sure, higher profile is, in part, not Division III in sports. But still ...
Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia Southern, heck even Savannah State is higher profile than what we have.
Michigan, MIchigan State, the three directional schools, Oakland ...
We NEVER will have the seats to accommodate this alleged "brain drain." Focus on keeping brighter kids at home, luring bright kids from other places and don't worry about numbers, because we cannot accommodate them.
Or do you want to plunk a few hundred million dollars into creating or upgrading a new major university?
You're a kid from Pennsylvania. Penn State, Pitt, Temple, a slew of private schools and a lot of state schools no better than ours. Lots of choices.
You're from Ohio. After Ohio State and Cincinnati, you have Miami, Ohio, Toledo, Bowling Green, Kent State, Akron, Youngstown, all higher profile than anything we have after RU.
You're from freaking Alabama. You have Alabama, Auburn, UAB, Troy, Northern Alabama, South Alabama ... all higher profile than ours.
OK, sure, higher profile is, in part, not Division III in sports. But still ...
Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia Southern, heck even Savannah State is higher profile than what we have.
Michigan, MIchigan State, the three directional schools, Oakland ...
We NEVER will have the seats to accommodate this alleged "brain drain." Focus on keeping brighter kids at home, luring bright kids from other places and don't worry about numbers, because we cannot accommodate them.
Or do you want to plunk a few hundred million dollars into creating or upgrading a new major university?
CLP -- You are correct.
http://www.ccm.edu/studentLife/CampusServices/TransferResources/TransferAgreement.aspx
If that was what he was trying to do with Rowan, it would be a good goal. However, I think he is trying to raid Rutgers in order to funnel funding from Rutgers to Norcross (through Rowan and affiliated Cooper Hospital, where Norcross is chairman of the Board of Trustees).
I'm sure Sweeney wants money.to go to the hospital. But since Rowan is public, it is probably easier to just give them the money as revenge on Rutgers for not agreeing to have Cooper's medical school affiliate with Rutgers.
HA! I think we know why. We need not hesitate in putting her in the category of people who didn't get in.
Which of those schools besides Penn is better than RU?
The problem is that RU does not properly market itself OOS. The rule about RU having to pay back the state for the OOS students may still exist, though I thought it was appealed.
Put it like this. A school like UDel or UMD or TTFP is visiting every well to do LI, NYC, and Westchester HS. Is RU? Is RU mailing them? Is RU sending its local alums around saying look at us?
Other than athletics, how is RU getting the message out to these kids and parents, that RU was just ranked one the best schools in the world, is cheaper than many other OOS options, is 50 minutes from NYC, has great grad school placement, etc?
BTW, CT and MD are the two states always listed with the same problem, but I think it has less to do with geography, and more to do with the fact that both typically join NJ in a ranking of the wealthiest states. This is versus, say, NY or PA that have large, rural portions in the rust belt where people aren't throwing away money.
e5,
No worries. We're on the same page.
True, the legislature has "mandated" a few requirements. However, the law in question simply codifies what was established by Rutgers through individual agreements with selected CCs throughout the State back in the late-'90's and early '00's. At that time, students who had applied to RU, but didn't meet all the qualifications would be directed through this program. That part is gone. Now, any student who successfully attains the Associate's degree and has a specific terminal GPA will be accepted to a four-year school. However, the prerequisites and service courses remain in place for 300- and 400-level courses and the major definition and degree-granting sovereignty is retained by the four-year schools. In essence, the service courses are fulfilled at the CC and the major content is done at the four-year school.
NIRH, just a couple of points:
Keep in mind until 1956, Rutgers was 1) a private school, 2) limited in financial support, 3) not "seen" outside the State.
Post-1956, Undergraduate Admissions at RU was at best feeling its way on all fronts of marketing the university. The staff there had no frame of reference of what it meant to be a "state university", much less even being able to market itself. For all the complaining and carping we do - myself included - Rutgers is one of the newest "state universities" even though it is one of the oldest in terms of history. It's not an excuse, just a reality.
As to getting info out today, check out the following Twitter accounts:
RutgersU
Apply2Rutgers
Rutgers_Newark
Rutgers_Camden
rutgersalumni
Funnily, the CWUR rankings were actually "announced" by JayRutgers09 first. But the Communications Department at RU picked that up very quickly and broadcast it as well. Those tweets and several other friends' and supporters' retweets got the ball rolling to put that info into the public domain very quickly. Retweets continue to go out today as others see it.
If you follow the #CHOPNation, Rutgers - the University, alumni, students, fans and prospective students - have become equal users of it along with the Atlanta Braves fans. This organic growth has connected us far more quickly across the nation than any form of targeted advertising.
The various departments at RU have the usual Facebook accounts, but FB is more of an ad service now than a legit social media site.
* * *
Regarding "repaying the state" for OOS students, what are you referring to?
This post was edited on 7/27 3:52 PM by mkollar
None of them besides Penn are better than RU.
The problem for NJ is you have all of these out of state options so close and a lack of options in state. Couple that with a fairly wealthy population and you are bound to lose a large number of kids. This will never change. I think the politicians make it a bigger deal than it really is.
Rutgers definitely needs to hit the recruiting trail harder. Even in state. I went to a private school in South Jersey and I don't think New Brunswick sent anyone to our school. Camden did but I don't think New Brunswick did.
If NJ had a variety of options like that we would see the reverse. All those schools I named were just in the Philadelphia area. They all have a vibrant campus life or are close to the city which is a big asset.
We don't have many schools that can compare, which is why we struggle to attract OOS students as a state. I think we could do better than 5,000 but many of NJ's colleges don't have a vary appealing campus life/location.
My recollection is that things were not so benign, but rather that the state legislature felt that Rutgers was being too strict, and so made us take all CC credits.
Originally posted by mkollar:
e5,
No worries. We're on the same page.
True, the legislature has "mandated" a few requirements. However, the law in question simply codifies what was established by Rutgers through individual agreements with selected CCs throughout the State back in the late-'90's and early '00's. At that time, students who had applied to RU, but didn't meet all the qualifications would be directed through this program. That part is gone. Now, any student who successfully attains the Associate's degree and has a specific terminal GPA will be accepted to a four-year school. However, the prerequisites and service courses remain in place for 300- and 400-level courses and the major definition and degree-granting sovereignty is retained by the four-year schools. In essence, the service courses are fulfilled at the CC and the major content is done at the four-year school.
Our problem is not so much of recruiting OOS students -- it's as hard to make an argument for an out-of-stater to go to Rutgers as to make an argument for an in-stater to go elsewhere -- but rather in recruiting top NJ students. The school is not seen as desirable for undergrads.
I have mentioned this before but my older son is starting 9th grade in the Fall and over the last two years we checked out a lot of the HS in the area (Monmouth County), public and private.
I was amazed how many of kids from the BioTech.
*We are getting those. Maybe not as much as we like, but they are coming. And these type of kids have lots of options.
We obviously need more OOS students & more of the top NJ students. I was an OOS student from NY & had a similar mentality that many NJ students have, which is anywhere but here. I had no desire to attend a SUNY, or even Cornell which I got into, & wanted to go OOS. Nonetheless (and maybe I'm biased by my love for Rutgers), Rutgers offers more than SUNYs, especially with the med school, B1G, CIC, etc. & has a better reputation nationally, so kids should be more interested in staying home in NJ.
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Posted from Rivals Mobile
This seems spot-on to me. Those graphs look disconcerting, but NJ's colleges are full, not empty. Were they not and the situation was the same then we'd have some tough examining of our colleges to do. Instead we have a lack of capacity.
I was never in favor of any of the moves to partition either portions of RU (i.e. Camden), UMDNJ (the osteopathic school), or the RU budget to Rowan, but I am in favor of its growth as a matter of principle. Data like this show that it is needed. I just hate the people involved with Rowan who will benefit and the apparently terrible administration that is stewarding this rapid growth, rapid debt phase that it is in.
