NFL Europe

[PhilaPhans]

Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

 

[RU4Real]

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him - and the assumption was always that it wouldn't survive past Tagliabue's tenure.

Goodell's thinking was that it's not just about the money (which wasn't much), but rather more about the belief that NFLE wasn't critical to the core mission. It was, in essence, a distraction.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him - and the assumption was always that it wouldn't survive past Tagliabue's tenure.

Goodell's thinking was that it's not just about the money (which wasn't much), but rather more about the belief that NFLE wasn't critical to the core mission. It was, in essence, a distraction.

And that's peanuts now compared with the huge growth in revenue over the last decade. What a terribly short-sighted move - sounds more like it was his personal preference than a business decision.

 

[James_Bond]

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him - and the assumption was always that it wouldn't survive past Tagliabue's tenure.

Goodell's thinking was that it's not just about the money (which wasn't much), but rather more about the belief that NFLE wasn't critical to the core mission. It was, in essence, a distraction.

$10 million??? Thats it?

 

[sherrane]

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him - and the assumption was always that it wouldn't survive past Tagliabue's tenure.

Goodell's thinking was that it's not just about the money (which wasn't much), but rather more about the belief that NFLE wasn't critical to the core mission. It was, in essence, a distraction.

Exactly. One of the goals of NFL Europe was to help grow the game outside the US. The problem is that at the end of its existence, NFL Europe was pretty much NFL Germany (plus Amsterdam) and a significant percentage of those attending the games were American military.

Another one of the goals was to develop players, and specifically QBs. There were only a handful of players who ended up making the NFL because of their participation in Europe. Teams had preseason roster exceptions for players who played in Europe (the didn't count against the training camp roster until the final cuts) and few players made the team. Kurt Warner, Jon Kitna, Scott Mitchell, Brad Johnson, Jake Delhomme, David Archer, and Danny Wuerful are the only QBs who attempted more passes in the NFL than they did in NFL Europe.

 

[RU4Real]

Originally posted by DJ Spanky:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him - and the assumption was always that it wouldn't survive past Tagliabue's tenure.

Goodell's thinking was that it's not just about the money (which wasn't much), but rather more about the belief that NFLE wasn't critical to the core mission. It was, in essence, a distraction.

And that's peanuts now compared with the huge growth in revenue over the last decade. What a terribly short-sighted move - sounds more like it was his personal preference than a business decision.

Depends on how you look at it.

If you operate a subsidiary business that's a known loser then you have to reasonably ask why you're doing it in the first place.

Saying that the core business is still profitable and therefor the subsidiary business isn't a concern isn't really logical. The League couldn't point to any benefits of maintaining NFLE that reduced the overall loss. It was cool and it was fun, but it was still a loser.

Realize that in the NFL, directly eliminating $10 million per year in cost means that the owners each get an extra $300k in their pockets. Most people are gonna take the money.

 

[PhilaPhans]

If you leave out the USA teams from the WAFL, here is what was left for NFL Europe:

Amsterdam Admirals
Barcelona Dragons
Berlin Thunder
Cologne Centurions
Frankfurt Galaxy
Hamburg Sea Devils
London/England Monarchs
Rhein Fire
Scottish Claymores

Why not have a Parisian team, one in Rome, one in Vienna, etc? I don't get it. Europe's not really THAT big where travel would be super costly.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
If you leave out the USA teams from the WAFL, here is what was left for NFL Europe:

Amsterdam Admirals
Barcelona Dragons
Berlin Thunder
Cologne Centurions
Frankfurt Galaxy
Hamburg Sea Devils
London/England Monarchs
Rhein Fire
Scottish Claymores

Why not have a Parisian team, one in Rome, one in Vienna, etc? I don't get it. Europe's not really THAT big where travel would be super costly.

I would guess because Europeans dont actually like American football. They were basically drawing non-BCS level crowds, and that is presumably in the markets that the NFL thought the product might have some actual interest.

Plus adding more teams waters down the product more. There is only so much hig hlevel FB talent in the world and the NFL owns most of it. Canada has some of it. The AFL has some of it. College has some. Whats leftover for Europe is already thin.

So given that its already not a popular product, and then spread it to areas where it would be even less popular, and make the product worse. Thats not a great business plan.

 

[RUfinal4]

could there have also been tax implications since Europe taxes corporations differently?

A minor league World Football league would not be bad though.

Have 12 teams in the US / Canada / Mexico, 8 in Europe, and 4 in Asia where you allow those who don't get drafted from college and the HS kids that don't want to go to college to play.

if it is treated a s a true minor league it can work. The issue would be whether it should be a Spring league or Fall league

 

[RU4Real]

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:

Why not have a Parisian team, one in Rome, one in Vienna, etc? I don't get it. Europe's not really THAT big where travel would be super costly.

Simple answer = zero interest. Considerable market research was done. Germany's teams were largely supported by U.S. military personnel. The Barcelona area contains, for some weird reason, a shocking number of American ex-pats. The UK is an easy call and Amsterdam never really did that well. There's something to be said for enjoying a nice football game while you're baked out of your mind after a day of pre-gaming at the "coffee houses", but the overall appeal was pretty limited.

The French couldn't possibly be less interested in American football. Long-distance competitive sailing is pretty much the national pastime for everyone who doesn't ski.

As an aside, anyone who thinks that football games here have way too many drunks in the stands should go to a game in Frankfurt.

 

[sherrane]

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
If you leave out the USA teams from the WAFL, here is what was left for NFL Europe:

Amsterdam Admirals
Barcelona Dragons
Berlin Thunder
Cologne Centurions
Frankfurt Galaxy
Hamburg Sea Devils
London/England Monarchs
Rhein Fire
Scottish Claymores

Why not have a Parisian team, one in Rome, one in Vienna, etc? I don't get it. Europe's not really THAT big where travel would be super costly.

The 1995 version, which was the first league without teams in North America had teams in Scotland (Scottish Claymores), England (London Monarchs), Netherlands (Amsterdam Admirals), Spain (Barcelona Dragons), and Germany (Frankfurt Galaxy and Rhein Fire). The problem is that the German teams and Amsterdam were the only teams who drew a decent crowd. Frankfurt averaged over 30,000 per game from 1996 -- 2007 and Rhein averaged about 28,000 in the same timeframe compared to about 11,000 for Barcelona; 8,000 for Scottish; and about 6,000 for London. The final season was the only season that averaged more than 20,000 for every game played and that was likely because 5 of the 6 franchises were in Germany.

 

[srru86]

Originally posted by sherrane:

The problem is that at the end of its existence, NFL Europe was pretty much NFL Germany (plus Amsterdam) and a significant percentage of those attending the games were American military.

So I think you are saying Roger Goddell is depriving our brave men and women in uniform of their favorite past time for a few bucks. What a cheap, unpatriotic bastard.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Originally posted by sherrane:
The 1995 version, which was the first league without teams in North America had teams in Scotland (Scottish Claymores), ......

I wonder why they named a team after a military weapon.

 

[JPhoboken]

Originally posted by DJ Spanky:

Originally posted by sherrane:
The 1995 version, which was the first league without teams in North America had teams in Scotland (Scottish Claymores), ......

I wonder why they named a team after a military weapon.

Do you mean the Scottish Claymore Swords or the claymore Mines, which were named for the scottish swords. I don't think the Football team was named for the mines.

 

[mdk01]

Originally posted by sherrane:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him - and the assumption was always that it wouldn't survive past Tagliabue's tenure.

Goodell's thinking was that it's not just about the money (which wasn't much), but rather more about the belief that NFLE wasn't critical to the core mission. It was, in essence, a distraction.

Exactly. One of the goals of NFL Europe was to help grow the game outside the US. The problem is that at the end of its existence, NFL Europe was pretty much NFL Germany (plus Amsterdam) and a significant percentage of those attending the games were American military.

Another one of the goals was to develop players, and specifically QBs. There were only a handful of players who ended up making the NFL because of their participation in Europe. Teams had preseason roster exceptions for players who played in Europe (the didn't count against the training camp roster until the final cuts) and few players made the team. Kurt Warner, Jon Kitna, Scott Mitchell, Brad Johnson, Jake Delhomme, David Archer, and Danny Wuerful are the only QBs who attempted more passes in the NFL than they did in NFL Europe.

Jay Fiedler?

 

[Bamm Bamm Rubble]

Europe doesn't want a B product. They want to know their team can compete for The Super Bowl and not a NFLE championship.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

The NFL sort of tried to grow the game internationally with NFLE, but the Europeans didn't really care all that much. I am still a bit surprised the NFL doesn't have a minor league somewhere. I suspect that an NFL minor league could catch on either (or both) as a spring league in second tier cities too small for NFL teams.

 

[RUMcMahon]

Great topic, I remember being a fan of the World League of American Football as a kid. Let's go NY/NJ Knights! Wasn't Erney the QB for the Barcelona Dragons?

 

[Knight_Light]

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him....

AH....No one hates RG because NFL Europe died.

NFL today earns more revenue and exposure from 2 (and now 3 this season) NFL games in London.

 

[RU4Real]

Originally posted by Knight_Light:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him....

AH....No one hates RG because NFL Europe died.

NFL today earns more revenue and exposure from 2 (and now 3 this season) NFL games in London.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Incidentally, the ideal of an NFL farm system isn't likely to catch on. The NFL isn't MLB. Impact players want to get to "the show" immediately - careers are shorter and every game brings with it the prospect of a career-ending injury. Spending some amount of time in "the minors" is seen by the NFLPA as an unnecessary risk.

Any lesser league would always be just that - the repository for marginal talent.

 

[Knight_Light]

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by Knight_Light:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him....

AH....No one hates RG because NFL Europe died.

NFL today earns more revenue and exposure from 2 (and now 3 this season) NFL games in London.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Actually I do.

More people in the USA watched a game in London that started 6 30 am PST aged in London this past year vs 3 years of combined NFL Europa TV ratings.

Yeah, it was Goodell' s fault.*

Note: actual NFLE losses were closer to $30 Million per year.


This post was edited on 3/13 9:02 AM by Knight_Light

 

[RU4Real]

Originally posted by Knight_Light:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by Knight_Light:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him....

AH....No one hates RG because NFL Europe died.

NFL today earns more revenue and exposure from 2 (and now 3 this season) NFL games in London.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Actually I do.

More people in the USA watched a game in London that started 6 30 am PST aged in London this past year vs 3 years of combined NFL Europa TV ratings.

Yeah, it was Goodell' s fault.*

Note: actual NFLE losses were closer to $30 Million per year.


This post was edited on 3/13 9:02 AM by Knight_Light

Except that you clearly didn't read what I said. I said getting rid of NFLE was one of the reasons people (especially in the League Office) hated Roger. If you'd bother to read the rest of my posts in the thread I pointed out why he made the decision that he did.

I'll take my 10 years in the League Office over what you think you know, pretty much any day.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by Knight_Light:

Originally posted by RU4Real:

Originally posted by PhilaPhans:
Why was NFL Europe shut down if the NFL really wants to push the sport and put a team in London?

Were the teams just hemorrhaging money at the time? Were they just not getting good enough second tier players? Different commish with a different focus?

NFLE was about a $10 million drain on the bottom line when I left the League in '05. Roger didn't like NFLE - which is another reason why Roger is a dick and nobody likes him....

AH....No one hates RG because NFL Europe died.

NFL today earns more revenue and exposure from 2 (and now 3 this season) NFL games in London.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Incidentally, the ideal of an NFL farm system isn't likely to catch on. The NFL isn't MLB. Impact players want to get to "the show" immediately - careers are shorter and every game brings with it the prospect of a career-ending injury. Spending some amount of time in "the minors" is seen by the NFLPA as an unnecessary risk.

Any lesser league would always be just that - the repository for marginal talent.

I dont think thats the issue. The issue is that the NFL already has a farm system. You are on one of its fan boards right now. And it doesnt even pay for it.

 

[e5fdny]

Originally posted by RUMcMahon:
Great topic, I remember being a fan of the World League of American Football as a kid. Let's go NY/NJ Knights! Wasn't Erney the QB for the Barcelona Dragons?

Yes he was.

Jack Bicknell the old BC coach was his boss in Spain and he always spoke highly of Scott's talent.

I wonder if Scott would have made that list (about guys throwing more in the NFL) in the earlier post above if he didn't tear up his knee?

 

[RutgersMO]

Put A Team in Israel / Gaza...


Then let the hyperbole about a "WAR" begin!~

MO