(It's pretty close to football.)
Won a squeaker today where you could argue we were outplayed, but survived to make it to the finals.
Won a squeaker today where you could argue we were outplayed, but survived to make it to the finals.
OT: Go the All Blacks!
- Thread starter SkilletHead2
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If it were, th re would near universal resistance of the tiny shorts they wear.
They weren't outplayed. They just looked like crap (relatively) for like 75 min of the game. And I admittedly know next to nothing about rugby. They were definitely the better team, though.
Skillet, if you get a chance, can you go over some of the basic rules and strategy like how many times and why they just keep running forward into three defenders and when they decide to kick it away. When the ball gets kicked for 3 and when it goes to a scrum, etc. Thanks.
Skillet, if you get a chance, can you go over some of the basic rules and strategy like how many times and why they just keep running forward into three defenders and when they decide to kick it away. When the ball gets kicked for 3 and when it goes to a scrum, etc. Thanks.
Sure thing, although I'm sure vkj could chime in here as well.
Sure!
Skillet’s Quick Guide to Rugby Union
There are three basic kinds of rugby: Rugby Union (which is what we all think of as rugby), Rugby League (which is a really dumb version of rugby mostly played by Aussies), and Sevens (which is what the Olympics will be and is huge fun to watch while dressed up funny and drunk – also very popular with cute girls who also dress up funny and get drunk, so if you get a chance, go).
The goal of rugby is to get the ball over the goal line and put it down on the ground with pressure (doesn’t have to be much pressure). Hovering over the goal line gets you bupkus. A “try” (touchdown) gets you 5 points and the opportunity to try to make a conversion kick for an additional two points. You have to kick from straight back (as far as you want) from where you scored.
You can have as many downs (called phases) as you want. You just keep going until you score, kick the ball away, lose it, or there is a penalty called.
When a guy is tackled, two things happen right away. The tackler has to release the ball carrier and the ball carrier has to release the ball. The ball carrier tries to fall facing his team and places the ball out toward them. The tackler, and other defensive players, will often try to reach over the ball carrier and grab the ball. They have to stay on their feet while doing so. The offensive team has players run in and form a kind of wedge protecting the ball and the defense pushes back the other way. This is what is called a ruck. There are a gazillion rules regarding the ruck and lots of penalties get called during the ruck.
OK, the ruck gets formed and a guy called the “scrum half” comes in to take the ball out and put it into play (the #9). Other guys can do this, but the 9 usually does it. He throws the ball out to one of his teammates. Often, this is the “fly half” (#10) who then decides how the team is going to go on the next phase. The 9 and the 10 are like two quarterbacks of the team. The 9 is usually a little guy and the 10 is usually a bit bigger and a really good open field ball handler.
Now once the ball is back in play, you are right, a lot of times they run into a pack of guys and gain like a yard or two. Sometimes, a guy other than the 9 just picks up the ball and runs straight ahead. This is called a “pick and go.” But mostly the ball is thrown out and put into play. What you are trying to do is to make a “line break.” The defence will have 13 of their 15 guys strung out in a line (and two guys playing deep). The ball carrier will try to break in between two guys in that line, but 95% of the time won’t be successful. So there is a lot of “try and try again” going on.
But, depending on what a team’s strengths are, if they can “turn the ball over” quickly, that is, get it back in play quickly, then the defense may be caught with too many guys not back out of the ruck, and a hole can be found in the defense. So there is a bit of pushing and pulling to find an opening.
Another thing they do is kick the ball high in the area and try to catch it themselves. But they can’t send guys downfield beforehand. You have to stay onside. In rugby, the line of scrimmage kind of moves with the ball. You have to stay on your side of the ball. So if a guy kicks it high, the only guys who can run under it are the kicker (who usually is the guy to do so) or someone who has been behind the kicker.
All passes in rugby have to be lateral or backwards. But you can kick the ball forward to another player. BUT, he has to be behind you when the ball is kicked. Then he can run forward and get it. This is usually down on an angle, sometimes kicked up and sometimes as a grounder.
Sometimes when a guy catches the ball deep, he runs up until he encounters the defense and then he punts it away. This is just playing for field advantage. One thing to keep in mind. If you get tackled and don’t have your players in support, you have to release the ball and the other team will just scoop it up and go. So often, kicking is your only choice.
Sometimes if you are in a ruck deep in your own territory, your 9 will take the ball out of the ruck and kick it kind of over his head backwards (or sideways) downfield. This is just because it’s dangerous to get too fancy with the ball deep in your own territory. Better to take the punt.
If a penalty is called on a team, the other team can try a field goal (3 points). Also, at any time you can try a drop kick for 3 points.
(I feel like jellyman doing a game analysis.)
Sometimes, if a team isn’t getting anywhere after a while, they just kick it away to see if they can bury the other team deep. If you kick in out of bounds (into touch) on the fly (on the full), the ball comes back to where you kicked it (unless you kick it from inside your own 22 yard line). Otherwise, it has to hit the ground before going out.
OK couple more quick things. What’s a scrum? That is called when one team has “knocked the ball on” or made a forward pass. If you touch the ball or lose it forward, it’s a “knock on” and the other team gets to throw the ball in on a scrum (most of the time – there are exceptions). In a scrum, there are three guys in the front row, four in the second, and one in the third. The teams have to follow the ref’s directions: crouch, bind, set. This is basically an effort to get the scrum set up fairly. To me, it’s one of the dumbest parts of the game as it wastes time. A “maul” is when the two teams have guys engaged with each other, but the ball is being held up off the ground and the team is moving forward.
Funny terms: "dummy" = "fake" "pace" = "speed" "on the full" = "on the fly" "into touch" = "out of bounds"
OK, that’s the intro. Questions answered as they arise.
Go the All Blacks.
what's it called when the ball carrier shoots the ball backwards through his legs like my 5 year old on the playground?
Or is that in the pansy Aussie version?
Or is that in the pansy Aussie version?
Nice write up. Thanks.
The terms you mentioned at the end are related to similar soccer terms (although I have no clue if they are derived, one way or the other, or just a product of the sports' country of origin or whatever). A dummy in soccer means to fake receiving a passed ball but actually let it continue on by, typicall to another player. "Pace" is frequently used where Americans would use the term "speed" in describing the speed of a pass (also often referred to as the weight of the pass), a particular player's speed, the overall pace of the game. And the sideline in soccer is actually called the touch-line, which sort of comports with "into touch" meaning out of bounds.
See thread on long snapping.
(Or do you mean when they roll the ball into the scrum and then it comes out the back? Scrums are about the only really dumb aspect of rugby.)
It's funny mildone. Since moving to NZ, we are never sure if a strange word is local to NZ or is Brit or what. Same thing with sports terms. Another funny thing is that when a guy is playing for a team for the first time, the announcer will say, "Martin is making his day-BOO for Taranaki." With French words, it seems like any word that Yanks say in the French style, the kiwis anglicise, and vice versa. They say Herb instead of erb, Fill-ett instead of fil-lay, BRO-sure instead of bro-SURE and GAIR-ij instead of guh-RAJ. But, they say day-BOO, fwoi-YAY instead of foyer. But the worst is that they say pasta with the a the same as in hat.
Things I remember from watching the AB's semifinal victory (some of which you've touched on):
There was like a 10 count or something on how many times they could try to run it before they had to punt it away?
Once the guy is tackled, the guy has to put the ball out, or it's a turnover. How long does he have to put the ball behind him for his teammate to pick up, and how long does the teammate have before the other team is allowed to rush past the line of scrimmage? Sometimes it seemed like they were on the guy in a heartbeat and other times it seemed pretty standard of a rush, like in American football.
How many guys on the field can generally take the field goals? Is it usually one guy who's specific job is to hang out on the field and not get hurt so he can take all the kicks? Or are a bunch of guys often able to make those kicks?
Are there any rules for throw-ins in terms of being hoisted up, or where the ball can be thrown in? I don't get how the throwing team doesn't catch the ball more than they do (since I assume there'd be some sort of advantage thrown in).
Where does the dominance in the sport come from (that the Americans can't get yet)? Is it moreso the knowledge and strategy of the game? Prepping 6'6 280 pound athletes to specifically run 4'4 40s and crash through people (whereas we bulk up our guys that size to play OL in football or bulk down to play PF in basketball)?
When you punt the ball forward, or squib kick it to the corner, is that essentially their version of the forward pass, in that anybody (behind the kicker, as you noted) can get it if they get to the ball?
What percentage of the 15 people play up on the line and what percentage play return man just in case of punts?
I'm sure I can think of more questions (since I sound like that Aussie rules guy trying to watch the SF 49er running back play for the first time), but I appreciate the time you've dedicated to this thread to help me understand things better.
There was like a 10 count or something on how many times they could try to run it before they had to punt it away?
Once the guy is tackled, the guy has to put the ball out, or it's a turnover. How long does he have to put the ball behind him for his teammate to pick up, and how long does the teammate have before the other team is allowed to rush past the line of scrimmage? Sometimes it seemed like they were on the guy in a heartbeat and other times it seemed pretty standard of a rush, like in American football.
How many guys on the field can generally take the field goals? Is it usually one guy who's specific job is to hang out on the field and not get hurt so he can take all the kicks? Or are a bunch of guys often able to make those kicks?
Are there any rules for throw-ins in terms of being hoisted up, or where the ball can be thrown in? I don't get how the throwing team doesn't catch the ball more than they do (since I assume there'd be some sort of advantage thrown in).
Where does the dominance in the sport come from (that the Americans can't get yet)? Is it moreso the knowledge and strategy of the game? Prepping 6'6 280 pound athletes to specifically run 4'4 40s and crash through people (whereas we bulk up our guys that size to play OL in football or bulk down to play PF in basketball)?
When you punt the ball forward, or squib kick it to the corner, is that essentially their version of the forward pass, in that anybody (behind the kicker, as you noted) can get it if they get to the ball?
What percentage of the 15 people play up on the line and what percentage play return man just in case of punts?
I'm sure I can think of more questions (since I sound like that Aussie rules guy trying to watch the SF 49er running back play for the first time), but I appreciate the time you've dedicated to this thread to help me understand things better.
I always find those sorts of linguistic things really cool; the way different countries or cultures approach similar elements of language and idioms and so forth.
My dad, OTOH, would go nuts. I spent some time in Texas when I was relative young and adopted some local things like saying "y'all" and a slight Texas accent. When I was back on the East Coast, my doing those things would make him nearly apoplectic. So naturally I did them even more.
Pansy Aussie version? Are you kidding me? We don't wear any protective gear other than mouth guards in Aussie rules FB (unlike american FB). And there is full on contact including jumping on top off one another. And no there is no hiking off the ball in aussie rules FB.
Good questions:
1. There is no count on the number of downs (called phases) you can have in rugby union (in rugby league, you get five and then have to put or give the ball up). Sometimes a team will go 20 phases or more.
2. The guy has to release the ball immediately, but that operationalizes to about 2-3 seconds. Also, if he holds the ball out behind him, they don't care if he kind of holds it steady. They usually only call "not releasing" if the guy is being challenged, or a defensive guy is holding the ball against his body.
3. The other team can come across and try to get the ball immediately. But they have to play it from their side of the ball. To me, it sometimes seems like they should challenge for the ball, but they don't. In the Australia/Argentina game, the Aussies were all over the ball, which makes me nervous for our game as I think that is a good strategy.
4. Anybody can kick a field goal, but usually you have one guy who does it, and that often seems to be the #10, but not necessary. BTW, the numbers denote the position being played (except for subs). Everybody thinks they are a kicker, but usually only 2-3 really good ones on a team.
5. On a "lineout" the #2 always throws the ball in (doesn't have to, but it's part of the job) and he has to throw it straight down the line. If he throws it toward his team, he'll be called on it and the other team gets to throw it in. You can have anywhere from (I think) 4 to about 8 guys on that line. The team throwing in gets to determine and the D has to match. You can have as many jumpers as you want. You cannot grab the jumping man until he hits the ground. You're supposed to be able to get the ball because you know where the throw is going (in terms of height). Some teams are just better at stealing it than others. Lots of side rules on the lineouts.
6. My guess is that the dominance comes from the popularity of the game in NZ. The best athletes in NZ become rugby players if they can. It's the sport of choice, and kids play it from the time they can walk. We're good at a couple of other sports (cricket, rowing, swimming, triathlon), but rugby is the big game here. Also, we get pretty much the cream of the crop from the Pacific Islands, many of whom are NZ protectorates. Those boys can play!
7. The punt or squib is mostly a forward pass. The squib works well down toward the goal line as the ball will bounce oddly at times and your guy has a chance at it.
8. You usually will have 13 of the 15 guys on the line and 2 back. If you are pushing to score, you may have almost everybody up front, but you are risking an intercepted ball that is returned for a score.
9. You didn't ask this, but one of the things that is amazing about rugby is the degree to which both teams congratulate one another and take a loss on the chin when the game is over. Players are very complimentary of the other team.
I tried to watch the US vs Scotland and So. Africa (I think)... it was ok - but not that interesting (to me). It was actually way more 'technical" and not as much "random smashing the other guy" as I though.
I could see the sport making a "comeback" in the US if/when concussions finally become too much for the football mom's in Pop Warner/High School....
I could see the sport making a "comeback" in the US if/when concussions finally become too much for the football mom's in Pop Warner/High School....
Unfortunately, you aren't going to get any relief on the concussion front from switching to rugby. Tons of them.
the only thing that will stop concussions is when we discover sufficent inertial dampening technology
ALL BLACKS! 34-17 over the Wallabies (who suck). Great rugby game, with long time All Black star Dan Carter playing an amazing game is his last as an All Black.
And Hudson, I finally figured out your question. The wimpy putting the ball between you legs move is from "rugby league," a very different game from real rugby (called "rugby union"). They do that after every tackle, and then pitch the ball back to the next guy who runs for five yards into three guys. You get five downs and then have to punt. It's a really dumb game. Monotonous. Not as dumb as Aussie rules football (which is hilarious), but dumb nonetheless.
Tough day for RU, but great one for the All Blacks who become first team to win World Cup twice in a row.
And Hudson, I finally figured out your question. The wimpy putting the ball between you legs move is from "rugby league," a very different game from real rugby (called "rugby union"). They do that after every tackle, and then pitch the ball back to the next guy who runs for five yards into three guys. You get five downs and then have to punt. It's a really dumb game. Monotonous. Not as dumb as Aussie rules football (which is hilarious), but dumb nonetheless.
Tough day for RU, but great one for the All Blacks who become first team to win World Cup twice in a row.
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