OT: Honda Accord Hybrid

BigWill

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Nope. Gas stations are far more numerous than charging stations. And SUVs with large fuel tanks can go a long way without stopping. My Suburban had a 42 gallon tank.

The only Tesla Supercharger station (which allows you to get an operable charge in less than an hour) within about a 40 mile radius of me is 10 miles away by an Italian restaurant with about 8 stations. They are usually in use at night.

Granted they are out there along the Interstate Highway system, but go off them and it's slow chargers where you can find them as you sit and wait.

My Diesel Excursion had a 60 gallon tank. Stop around Columbus Ohio to pc and top off and a Pepsi, onto Champaign Illinois. Turn around after game and refill in Columbus again.
Round Trip just under 1,700 miles.
 
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fsg2

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toyota is moving on solid state battery tech and leveraging hybrid for now.

Exactly, Toyota will be just fine. It just became the world's largest automaker again. If it risks falling behind, it'll just buy/invest in the best battery tech and make up ground long before the market blooms.
 

BigWill

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Absolutely not ... unless it's off-road.

And I've nearly run out of gas on a road trip before, in the middle of winter.

Ten's to people run out of gas every day on the GSP and Turnpike. Thousands in a year.

Also no spare or a flat spare with a tire puncture.
 

mdk01

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Nope. Gas stations are far more numerous than charging stations. And SUVs with large fuel tanks can go a long way without stopping. My Suburban had a 42 gallon tank.

Yeah, but you only get 5 miles per gallon 😉
 

jtung230

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Absolutely not ... unless it's off-road.

And I've nearly run out of gas on a road trip before, in the middle of winter.
So you’ve almost run out of gas before but you just don’t worry about it. Got it.
 

fsg2

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Ten's to people run out of gas every day on the GSP and Turnpike. Thousands in a year.

Also no spare or a flat spare with a tire puncture.

I've seen someone run out of gas once in my life ... a friend about a three-minute walk from my house.

Hurried drivers not paying attention may run out of gas, but it's not something anyone worries about on a daily basis or on a road trip.
 

BigWill

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Exactly, Toyota will be just fine. It just became the world's largest automaker again. If it risks falling behind, it'll just buy/invest in the best battery tech and make up ground long before the market blooms.

Safe storage/transport in a passenger car of Nitrogen and it's all solved, no need to increase electricity capacity, no need for use of precious metals for battery construction, no pollution concerns.
 

BigWill

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I've seen someone run out of gas once in my life ... a friend about a three-minute walk from my house.

Hurried drivers not paying attention may run out of gas, but it's not something anyone worries about on a daily basis or on a road trip.

That my man is why wreckers pay the Highway Authority to be certified tow operators on the GSP and Turnpike, because it made the owners millionaires with those contracts.
 
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RUevolution36

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fsg2

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So you’ve almost run out of gas before but you just don’t worry about it. Got it.

Exactly. It's not a worry.

I almost ran out of gas in college on the way to Montreal at about 1 a.m. Did not realize how desolate I-87 becomes when it splits from the NY Thruway around Albany. Gas stations closed at the few-and-far-between stops. So we stayed the night at the Bates Motel and gassed up first thing in the morning.

You could probably do the same in your EV ... but you'll get mocked for eight hours by a local Joe after he tows you to his garage to charge up.

EV drivers have to plan refuels for every road trip (and some trips that aren't really road trips). ICE drivers need only plan out trips that are off road or in particularly desolate stretches. I've done both, as well as traveling cross country multiple times, and never a problem.
 

BigWill

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The Northway, the road you ran OOG is one of the most beautiful above Saratoga/Glens Falls for fall leaf peeping...

NYSP do patrol, but not frequently.

The GSP/Turnpike/AC Expressway are patrolled 24 x 7 by NJSP, specifically assigned to those roads and specific patrol areas during their shifts. Those roads pay the NJSP to assign Troopers on those roadways.

It is usually required that you patrol your assigned area and any person that breaks down should never wait more than 2 hours without a Trooper coming up to check on you and what you need.

Depending on how many Troopers are working that tour, your patrol area could be as small as 10 miles or as long as 50 miles (each way.).
 
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mdk01

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The Northway, the road you ran OOG is one of the most beautiful above Saratoga/Glens Falls for fall leaf peeping...

NYSP do patrol, but not frequently.

The GSP/Turnpike/AC Expressway are patrolled 24 x 7 by NJSP, specifically assigned to those roads and specific patrol areas during their shifts. Those roads pay the NJSP to assign Troopers on those roadways.

It is usually required that you patrol your assigned area and any person that breaks down should never wait more than 2 hours without a Trooper coming up to check on you and what you need.

Depending on how many Troopers are working that tour, your patrol area could be as small as 10 miles or as long as 50 miles (each way.).

You want beautiful for fall peeping check Rte. 89 between Concord NH and White River Junction VT.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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gas stations are easy to find. charging stations are not as ubiquitous.
Not true at all. Insert your destination into your EV, and it will tell you exactly where and when to charge, and for how long. Plus, the most common charging location is your home. If you drive less than 300 miles/ day, and you're a homeowner, you'll never think about a charging station.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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Porsche is developing an alternative to EVs, thankfully.


I currently have zero interest in an all electric vehicle. Even if gas goes to $5/gallon I won't have much interest. I like the looks of some of them (Taycan and e-Tron GT spring to mind - they share the same underlying platform). But my two driving factors for an SUV are (1) long road trips in comfort and (2) reasonable use in snowy conditions. And who wants to worry about running out of a charge during long road trips?

OTOH, I am looking some at hybrid SUVs in my ongoing SUV shopping saga. But that's more about having to stop for fuel less often on long trips than anything else.

If Porsche can deliver on it's clean synth fuel for ICEs, then I'll be all over that, barring problematic complications. If they can't, then I'll look into electric SUVs with 600 mile range at highway speeds.
You should rent an EV for a week. You'll soon see how flawed your logic is.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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that's what i meant by infrastructure upgrades. apologies, should have been more clear. generating capacity has the longest lead time and largest price tag. charging infrastructure to enable car charging all over the country is a project that could be started now. i'm a luddite with regards to cars...i am super reluctant to give up my IC engines, but if EV is the future...i guess I'll need to accept it and support the efforts it will take to make people who think like me obsolete.

and...solid state will be the intermediate future for EV, not tesla's version of Li-ion.
Mass production of solid state batteries will not be seen for a decade or more.
 
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lne001

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Have owned a Tesla model Y for eight months now. Being 'green' was not a factor in my decision. Investing in Tesla two years ago was.

By far the best performing automobile I have ever had, and the most fun. Instant torque is amazing, as is one pedal driving.

Granted I have not gone on long road trips yet due to Covid, but there are plenty of Superchargers along the interstates and near bigger cities. Assuming you use their navigation, any necessary charging stops are planned for you.

One other factor to realize is that while on the road you don't want to go lower than 15% charge nor charge beyond 85% because of the much, much slower rate past that point. At a supercharger this results in 15-20 minutes, time which my 74 yo bladder would require in any case.

This is not an argument for or against anything. Just one person's opinion at this time.
 

mdk01

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Not true at all. Insert your destination into your EV, and it will tell you exactly where and when to charge, and for how long. Plus, the most common charging location is your home. If you drive less than 300 miles/ day, and you're a homeowner, you'll never think about a charging station.

The fact that the most common charging location is your home is the problem. Can you give me an estimate of how many apartment/condo/coop residents there are in this country? And remember, it's 100% EV by 2035.
 
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BigWill

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I agree that they look like super performing vehicles.

My question is that they seem to advertise the speed ability to go above 120 MPH as a good thing. IF they put speed limiters onto the car would it increase the estimated miles between charges ? I know that using it in cold or hot affects the est charge distances.

Would I fit at 6' 5" ?
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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The fact that the most common charging location is your home is the problem. Can you give me an estimate of how many apartment/condo/coop residents there are in this country? And remember, it's 100% EV by 2035.
I have no idea, nor do I care. I'm not arguing that charging infrastructure doesn't need to improve. My point is that charging on long road trips is easy. The car does all the work for you.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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Have owned a Tesla model Y for eight months now. Being 'green' was not a factor in my decision. Investing in Tesla two years ago was.

By far the best performing automobile I have ever had, and the most fun. Instant torque is amazing, as is one pedal driving.

Granted I have not gone on long road trips yet due to Covid, but there are plenty of Superchargers along the interstates and near bigger cities. Assuming you use their navigation, any necessary charging stops are planned for you.

One other factor to realize is that while on the road you don't want to go lower than 15% charge nor charge beyond 85% because of the much, much slower rate past that point. At a supercharger this results in 15-20 minutes, time which my 74 yo bladder would require in any case.

This is not an argument for or against anything. Just one person's opinion at this time.
I have done road trips in my model 3 and charging isn't an issue. By the time you hit the bathroom and grab a drink/snack, you're at 70-80% and good to go.
And I agree. My EV is the best vehicle I've ever driven. Environmental concerns or not, EVs are simply better vehicles.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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I agree that they look like super performing vehicles.

My question is that they seem to advertise the speed ability to go above 120 MPH as a good thing. IF they put speed limiters onto the car would it increase the estimated miles between charges ? I know that using it in cold or hot affects the est charge distances.

Would I fit at 6' 5" ?
Tesla has "chill mode" in all their vehicles which restricts acceleration, and extends battery range. I've never used it. Trust me, ludicrous mode is more fun.

As for your height, I don't see that as a problem. EVs are roomier. Much less mechanical stuff in the vehicle allows for more cabin space.
 

lne001

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My question is that they seem to advertise the speed ability to go above 120 MPH as a good thing.

It isn't? Seriously, this is certainly for drivers who like to take their car to the track from time to time. Or Germans.

IF they put speed limiters onto the car would it increase the estimated miles between charges ? I know that using it in cold or hot affects the est charge distances.

Temperature and driving style does effect efficiency, similar to ICE cars. I personally don't watch estimated miles but rather battery capacity.

Would I fit at 6' 5" ?

My guess is models S and X likely, model Y probably, model 3 would not be comfortable. But you should schedule yourself a test drive for the hell of it; just leave your check book and credit cards at home.
 
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mildone

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The only Tesla Supercharger station (which allows you to get an operable charge in less than an hour) within about a 40 mile radius of me is 10 miles away by an Italian restaurant with about 8 stations. They are usually in use at night.

Granted they are out there along the Interstate Highway system, but go off them and it's slow chargers where you can find them as you sit and wait.

My Diesel Excursion had a 60 gallon tank. Stop around Columbus Ohio to pc and top off and a Pepsi, onto Champaign Illinois. Turn around after game and refill in Columbus again.
Round Trip just under 1,700 miles.
Exactly. For long road trips, which is a primary use case for me getting an SUV which I don't really need, electric just doesn't make much sense. Yet, at least.

One of my kids (probably thinking about his inheritance, the greedy bastard) said I should just rent an SUV for long road trips instead of buying one. I hate that he has a pretty good point. That brat. LOL
 
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mildone

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Yeah, but you only get 5 miles per gallon 😉
True, kind of. 🙂

My Suburban, when it was new, got probably 16-18mpg on the highway. But yeah, by the time I got rid of it, it was maybe getting 8-10 mpg on the highway. Even the hybrids don't get particularly great gas mileage.

Also, the newer models don't have super-large gas tanks. But still, the range would be way better than an electric of the same size. And refilling would be quick w/out queuing up in line for a charging station.
 

fsg2

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I agree that they look like super performing vehicles.

My question is that they seem to advertise the speed ability to go above 120 MPH as a good thing. IF they put speed limiters onto the car would it increase the estimated miles between charges ? I know that using it in cold or hot affects the est charge distances.

Would I fit at 6' 5" ?

Top speed is a weakness of EVs, not an advertised strength, and usually is electronically limited if it needs to be. Acceleration (instant torque) is where they outshine ICE cars. Bugatti owned an untouchable acceleration record for a decade with a multimillion-dollar supercar before it lost out to a wave of hybrids and electrics, among them the Tesla Model S 100D that cost a small fraction.

EV top speeds are modest compared to gas cars, which still drive the top speed wars.
 

mildone

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You should rent an EV for a week. You'll soon see how flawed your logic is.
I have zero interest in them at the moment and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't change with me driving them for a day/week/month.

For a sports car, it's not about logic for me. It's all about emotion. Same reason I opt for a manual instead of a PDK or other dual clutch transmission. And why I get some form of openable roof (to let sound in). Along with the added engagement of a manual transmission, the ICE sound is a huge part of the emotion for me. Along with handling competence. If I wanted another sports car, I'd be looking at a Lotus or a GT3 or GT4. Not an EV.

What does an EV provide that isn't provided by an ICE-equipped car? Make your case. What would change my logic?

The Taycan, for example, is by all accounts a nice handling car, at least for something so heavy. But the ICE sound isn't there. Nor is the manual gearbox. What compensates for the loss of those things?

It's a personal preference. There's no one right answer for people. For me, driving is never almost never about the destination. It's almost always about the drive itself.

For a sports car, I'm just not seeing the allure, personally. And for an SUV, the range and charging infrastructure just aren't there yet.
 
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RUSK97

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How did a post about a re-introduction of a hybrid vehicle derail and become a slam-fest of electric vehicles?
 

mildone

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Top speed is a weakness of EVs, not an advertised strength, and usually is electronically limited if it needs to be. Acceleration (instant torque) is where they outshine ICE cars. Bugatti owned an untouchable acceleration record for a decade with a multimillion-dollar supercar before it lost out to a wave of hybrids and electrics, among them the Tesla Model S 100D that cost a small fraction.

EV top speeds are modest compared to gas cars, which still drive the top speed wars.
According to this article, the the Porsche 918 Spyder is currently the quickest 0-60 production car at 2.1s. One tenth faster than the 2021 Porsche Turbo S and Lambo Huracan Performante at 2.2s. Three tenths faster than the Bugatti Chiron Sport and 2020 Tesla Model S at 2.4s.


It'll be interesting to see what the 2022 (or so) Porsche GT2RS does, 0-60-wise. But... all these sub-3s comparisons are all somewhat lame to me. Because in the car, nobody is going to notice much difference between 2.2 and 2.9.

Impressive technologically, sure. A jolt of adrenaline the first few times, you bet.

But while 3.4s in a RWD manual might be more than a full second off the fastest time in that article, it's remains exciting each and every time. Because it involves some actual human skill, not just stomping on the go pedal and letting the ECU and dual-clutch do all the work. You gotta earn it some.
 

mildone

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How did a post about a re-introduction of a hybrid vehicle derail and become a slam-fest of electric vehicles?
Isn't a slam-fest. It's a discussion about hybrids and EVs and ICEs. Like I just posted above, a hybrid vehicle currently holds the straight-line acceleration record, at least according Car and Driver.

With cars, people always have their preferences. My preferences exclude EVs at the moment. Doesn't mean I'm slamming them. I'm not. I just don't prefer to embrace what they offer versus other technologies. Others will have different, yet equally valid, viewpoints on the subject.
 

fsg2

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I have zero interest in them at the moment and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't change with me driving them for a day/week/month.

For a sports car, it's not about logic for me. It's all about emotion. Same reason I opt for a manual instead of a PDK or other dual clutch transmission. And why I get some form of openable roof (to let sound in). Along with the added engagement of a manual transmission, the ICE sound is a huge part of the emotion for me. Along with handling competence. If I wanted another sports car, I'd be looking at a Lotus or a GT3 or GT4. Not an EV.

What does an EV provide that isn't provided by an ICE-equipped car? Make your case. What would change my logic?

The Taycan, for example, is by all accounts a nice handling car, at least for something so heavy. But the ICE sound isn't there. Nor is the manual gearbox. What compensates for the lose of those things?

It's a personal preference. There's no one right answer for people. For me, driving is never almost never about the destination. It's almost always about the drive itself.

For a sports car, I'm just not seeing the allure, personally. And for an SUV, the range and charging infrastructure just aren't there yet.

Better acceleration is a pretty important part of a sports car's allure. EVs are now pushing sub-2-second 0-60/62 times and are leaving ICEs in the dust.

Instant torque/power. Optimized center of gravity thanks to skateboard chassis, no heavy engine sticking out the nose. In-wheel torque vectoring for improved cornering and stability.

And that's just at the EV performance car's infancy. How long have ICE engineers been improving supercars, and EVs are already quicker off the line at a fraction of the price. How long before they hone those inherent handling advantages enough to start dominating at the 'Ring while letting you commute quietly and confidently in the same car to work every day? Most cutting edge supercar tech is already moving that way, whether hybrid or electric.

You'll probably disagree, but the ICE sound argument is overdone. It's something people like because that's what they're used to. It doesn't define performance, nor the performance car. Had EVs won out a century ago, enthusiasts would be just as happy in their EVs today.
 
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fsg2

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According to this article, the the Porsche 918 Spyder is currently the quickest 0-60 production car at 2.1s. One tenth faster than the 2021 Porsche Turbo S and Lambo Huracan Performante at 2.2s. Three tenths faster than the Bugatti Chiron Sport and 2020 Tesla Model S at 2.4s.


It'll be interesting to see what the 2022 (or so) Porsche GT2RS does, 0-60-wise. But... all these sub-3s comparisons are all somewhat lame to me. Because in the car, nobody is going to notice much difference between 2.2 and 2.9.

Impressive technologically, sure. A jolt of adrenaline the first few times, you bet.

But while 3.4s in a RWD manual might be more than a full second off the fastest time in that article, it's remains exciting each and every time. Because it involves some actual human skill, not just stomping on the go pedal and letting the ECU and dual-clutch do all the work. You gotta earn it some.

Yeah, that was the one that knocked off the Veyron ... and it's a hybrid. The Model S clocked in at under 2.3 seconds, also quicker than the Veyron (and Chiron). Tesla's advertising a 1.99 on the Plaid. Aspark Owl: 1.69 seconds. Soon enough, we won't even be talking about 0-60, but 0-120 or 180. Admittedly not that useful for going to Shoprite, but we're talking cars you want to bring to the track, right?

As for the manual,, that's more an argument against modern car tech than gas vs. EV. And maybe an argument for moving to Europe : )

There are some prototype EVs with manuals. Ford had that 900-hp e-Mustang with one a year ago.
 

RUevolution36

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Better acceleration is a pretty important part of a sports car's allure. EVs are now pushing sub-2-second 0-60/62 times and are leaving ICEs in the dust.

Instant torque/power. Optimized center of gravity thanks to skateboard chassis, no heavy engine sticking out the nose. In-wheel torque vectoring for improved cornering and stability.

And that's just at the EV performance car's infancy. How long have ICE engineers been improving supercars, and EVs are already quicker off the line at a fraction of the price. How long before they hone those inherent handling advantages enough to start dominating at the 'Ring while letting you commute quietly and confidently in the same car to work every day? Most cutting edge supercar tech is already moving that way, whether hybrid or electric.

You'll probably disagree, but the ICE sound argument is overdone. It's something people like because that's what they're used to. It doesn't define performance, nor the performance car. Had EVs won out a century ago, enthusiasts would be just as happy in their EVs today.
A non-stock Tesla Model S (tested by Tesla) was rumored to have clocked 7:23 around the Nurburgring.

911 GT3 on street legal tires - 6:59.9
C7 Corvette Z06 - 7:13.9
Camaro ZL1 - 7:16.04
a 2012 Nissan GT-R - 7:19.1

That's just some of the cars in a similar price bracket that I've seen puttering around the area. Is it a fast sedan? Yes. Is it a mindblowing sports car? Eh. There's better.
 

jtung230

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A non-stock Tesla Model S (tested by Tesla) was rumored to have clocked 7:23 around the Nurburgring.

911 GT3 on street legal tires - 6:59.9
C7 Corvette Z06 - 7:13.9
Camaro ZL1 - 7:16.04
a 2012 Nissan GT-R - 7:19.1

That's just some of the cars in a similar price bracket that I've seen puttering around the area. Is it a fast sedan? Yes. Is it a mindblowing sports car? Eh. There's better.
Non-stock is a nice way to put it. Some might say a heavily modified. Just like the F-150 vs Tesla Cyber truck stunt. Musk is a good salesman.
 

lne001

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Top speed is a weakness of EVs, not an advertised strength, and usually is electronically limited if it needs to be. Acceleration (instant torque) is where they outshine ICE cars. Bugatti owned an untouchable acceleration record for a decade with a multimillion-dollar supercar before it lost out to a wave of hybrids and electrics, among them the Tesla Model S 100D that cost a small fraction.

EV top speeds are modest compared to gas cars, which still drive the top speed wars.

The new upcoming Tesla S Plaid+, available later this year, is a full-size sedan packing 1100hp which will do 0-60 in less than 2 seconds, a quarter mile in less than 9 seconds, a top speed of 200 mph and a range of 520 miles (for 1/12 the price of a Bugatti).

The upcoming Tesla Roadster will have yet faster acceleration, with 25% greater speed (250mph) and an increased range of 600 miles (for 1/9 the price of a Bugatti).
 
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jtung230

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The new upcoming Tesla S Plaid+, available later this year, is a full-size sedan packing 1100hp which will do 0-60 in less than 2 seconds, a quarter mile in less than 9 seconds, a top speed of 200 mph and a range of 520 miles (for the price of 12 Bugatti's).

The upcoming Tesla Roadster will have yet faster acceleration, with 25% greater speed (250mph) and an increased range of 600 miles (for the price of 9 Bugatti's).
Except if you hit the top speed of 200 mph, the target range is really 52 miles.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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I have zero interest in them at the moment and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't change with me driving them for a day/week/month.

For a sports car, it's not about logic for me. It's all about emotion. Same reason I opt for a manual instead of a PDK or other dual clutch transmission. And why I get some form of openable roof (to let sound in). Along with the added engagement of a manual transmission, the ICE sound is a huge part of the emotion for me. Along with handling competence. If I wanted another sports car, I'd be looking at a Lotus or a GT3 or GT4. Not an EV.

What does an EV provide that isn't provided by an ICE-equipped car? Make your case. What would change my logic?

The Taycan, for example, is by all accounts a nice handling car, at least for something so heavy. But the ICE sound isn't there. Nor is the manual gearbox. What compensates for the lose of those things?

It's a personal preference. There's no one right answer for people. For me, driving is never almost never about the destination. It's almost always about the drive itself.

For a sports car, I'm just not seeing the allure, personally. And for an SUV, the range and charging infrastructure just aren't there yet.
In one of your original posts you complained about EV range, but then got all excited about a synthetic fuel that doesn't exist and has no infrastructure. Range would seem to be more of a problem with the latter.

Since you're into performance and named some high end vehicles, I would definitely suggest a test drive in a Model S Plaid. 0-60 < 2 sec. If you want to go balls out, wait for the Plaid+ this fall. You'll be at 60mph before you get to the other side of the intersection. Imagine driving a performance car where the center of gravity is actually in the center of the car. It makes a huge difference in how the car handles, corners, and feels.

Safety...EVs are superior. Huge crumple zone in the front since there's no engine. Same goes for if you're a techie. OTA software updates improve your vehicle over time, just like your phone.

Joe Rogan is a huge gear head. Loves his manual, loves the sound of an ICE. Elon convinced him to get a model S P100D, and now he can't shut up about it. "It makes other cars seem stupid".
 
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RUevolution36

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In one of your original posts you complained about EV range, but then got all excited about a synthetic fuel that doesn't exist and has no infrastructure. Range would seem to be more of a problem with the latter.

Since you're into performance and named some high end vehicles, I would definitely suggest a test drive in a Model S Plaid. 0-60 < 2 sec. If you want to go balls out, wait for the Plaid+ this fall. You'll be at 60mph before you get to the other side of the intersection. Imagine driving a performance car where the center of gravity is actually in the center of the car. It makes a huge difference in how the car handles, corners, and feels.

Safety...EVs are superior. Huge crumple zone in the front since there's no engine. Same goes for if you're a techie. OTA software updates improve your vehicle over time, just like your phone.

Joe Rogan is a huge gear head. Loves his manual, loves the sound of an ICE. Elon convinced him to get a model S P100D, and now he can't shut up about it. "It makes other cars seem stupid". Check youtube for clips
EV's are extremely heavy and can't defy the laws of physics. Straight line speed? Yes. Throw 5000lb into a corner at speed? Good luck.
 
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