OT: Honda Accord Hybrid

lne001

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I have zero interest in them at the moment and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't change with me driving them for a day/week/month. What does an EV provide that isn't provided by an ICE-equipped car?

Take a performance Tesla out for a test-drive. Then you would not have to speculate.

... the ICE sound is a huge part of the emotion for me.

How about an audio track then, any engine sounds you want, played via inside and outside speakers. I think Porsche already offers this for people of a similar mindset.

For me, driving is never almost never about the destination. It's almost always about the drive itself.

Oh, I see. The same reason people still like to travel by horseback (at least for short distances).
 

lne001

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A non-stock Tesla Model S (tested by Tesla) was rumored to have clocked 7:23 around the Nurburgring.

Elon in February predicted that a stock Tesla S Plaid+, available later this year, should break 7:00.
 
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fsg2

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A non-stock Tesla Model S (tested by Tesla) was rumored to have clocked 7:23 around the Nurburgring.

911 GT3 on street legal tires - 6:59.9
C7 Corvette Z06 - 7:13.9
Camaro ZL1 - 7:16.04
a 2012 Nissan GT-R - 7:19.1

That's just some of the cars in a similar price bracket that I've seen puttering around the area. Is it a fast sedan? Yes. Is it a mindblowing sports car? Eh. There's better.

That the Model S is already in the conversation with those cars makes my point.

I mean it's right there - C7 Corvette. The seventh-generation 70-year-old Corvette manages a slightly better time than the first-gen nine-year-old Model S. Oh yeah, and the latter's a four-door.

It's an excerpt from the first chapter, not the book.
 

lne001

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Except if you hit the (Tesla) top speed of 200 mph, the target range is really 52 miles.

Which is 12 miles more than an F1 race car running at approximately similar speeds. The laws of physics are a bitch.
 

jtung230

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That the Model S is already in the conversation with those cars makes my point.

I mean it's right there - C7 Corvette. The seventh-generation 70-year-old Corvette manages a slightly better time than the first-gen nine-year-old Model S. Oh yeah, and the latter's a four-door.

It's an excerpt from the first chapter, not the book.
You forgot to mention that it cost more than double the cost of C7. But 50 years of gas saving should even it out.
 

jtung230

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Which is 12 miles more than an F1 race car running at approximately similar speeds. The laws of physics are a bitch.
I made up the 52 miles range number. You think Tesla is going to tell you the whole truth?
 

fsg2

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You forgot to mention that it cost more than double the cost of C7. But 50 years of gas saving should even it out.

I didn't forget. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

This thread is trippy. Weren't you singing the praises of EVs more loudly than anyone earlier in the thread?
 

lne001

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For those wondering about the ability of an EV to handle, here is a 2 year old video of a professional racer's first drive in a Tesla performance 3 on a track.

 

fsg2

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I didn't forget. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

This thread is trippy. Weren't you singing the praises of EVs more loudly than anyone earlier in the thread?

In fact, you said this. Which basically negates your latter point about the Tesla being double the price:

"But remember flat screen TVs in the beginning? The hope is that hand me down technology will be in affordable models. You know, just like iPhone pricing."
 

lne001

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I made up the 52 miles range number. You think Tesla is going to tell you the whole truth?

I, however, did not make up the F1 range. Less than 7mpg at those speeds.

As far as Tesla telling the truth, I don't know, but I don't have one complaint after 8 months so I'm perfectly satisfied.
 
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jtung230

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I didn't forget. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

This thread is trippy. Weren't you singing the praises of EVs more loudly than anyone earlier in the thread?
I’m a big fan and would like to see it rollout as mass market cars. The stuff we tangent off to is silly marketing. Give me a 25k EV with good range. If I want a fast performance car, I buy a C7. Too good of value to pass up.
 

mildone

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I don’t care if an EV can do 0-60 in .5s (which would probably cause some people to black out, I’m too lazy to look up the G/acceleration/human tolerance numbers). I still have zero interest.

@fsg2, it’s not possible to under or overrate MY emotional enjoyment from the sounds of an ICE. It’s a 100% subjective thing. The sounds are a huge factor for me. And I don’t care about going any quicker than I can already go in a straight line (3.4s is good enough for me).

Let me put it like this, make my best sports car sound like an EV and I’d sell it right away. Make it sound like an EV and improve my 3.4s to 1.4s and I’d still sell it right away. But that’s just me. Not making any kind of general statement about goodness or badness. Nothing about EVs speaks to me. Yet.

As for infrastructure for Porsche’s proposed synth fuel, IIRC, there is no special infrastructure. It would run where gasoline engines run. So all the infrastructure is already in place. Just don’t know if Porsche can get it working or not yet.

But they sure have a good track record with automotive engineering. And a big part of their customer base have the same thoughts I do about EVs. They’ve built one to satisfy those who might want one, and to attract new customers to the brand.
 
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RUevolution36

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I don’t care if an EV can do 0-60 in .5s (which would probably cause some people to black out, I’m too lazy to look up the G/acceleration/human tolerance numbers). I still have zero interest.

@fsg2, it’s not possible to under or overrate MY emotional enjoyment from the sounds of an ICE. It’s a 100% subjective thing. The sounds are a huge factor for me. And I don’t care about going any quicker than I can already go in a straight line (3.4s is good enough for me).

Let me out it like this, make my best sports car sound like an EV and I’d sell it right away. Make it sound like an EV and improve my 3.4s to 1.4s and I’d still sell it right away. But that’s just me. Not making any kind of general statement about goodness or badness. Nothing about EVs speaks to me. Yet.

As for infrastructure for Porsche’s proposed synth fuel, IIRC, there is no special infrastructure. It would run where gasoline engines run. So all the infrastructure is already in place. Just don’t know if Porsche can get it working or not yet.

But they sure have a good track with automotive engineering. And a big part of their customer base have the same thoughts I do about EVs. They’ve built one to satisfy those who might want one, and to attract new customers to the brand.
I'm not as much of a purist as you are. However, I think teslas are overhyped. It's like the Apple cult. I would rather have a taycan. Why? Because they've done the work to try to make it behave like a sports car... it's not just straight line fast. However, I'm not buying into EV's anytime soon. If I spend that much on a car that's supposed to be known for performance, I'd like to have more use out of it than a commuter and putter around town car.
 
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mildone

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Which is 12 miles more than an F1 race car running at approximately similar speeds. The laws of physics are a bitch.
Actually, no it’s not. Not even close. F1 cars have to be able to finish the entire race without refueling, and with a strict initial fuel limit. Nowadays, in many races, the drivers have to manage fuel use throughout the race instead of just driving as fast as the car can go each lap.
 

fsg2

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I don’t care if an EV can do 0-60 in .5s (which would probably cause some people to black out, I’m too lazy to look up the G/acceleration/human tolerance numbers). I still have zero interest.

@fsg2, it’s not possible to under or overrate MY emotional enjoyment from the sounds of an ICE. It’s a 100% subjective thing. The sounds are a huge factor for me. And I don’t care about going any quicker than I can already go in a straight line (3.4s is good enough for me).

Let me out it like this, make my best sports car sound like an EV and I’d sell it right away. Make it sound like an EV and improve my 3.4s to 1.4s and I’d still sell it right away. But that’s just me. Not making any kind of general statement about goodness or badness. Nothing about EVs speaks to me. Yet.

As for infrastructure for Porsche’s proposed synth fuel, IIRC, there is no special infrastructure. It would run where gasoline engines run. So all the infrastructure is already in place. Just don’t know if Porsche can get it working or not yet.

But they sure have a good track with automotive engineering. And a big part of their customer base have the same thoughts I do about EVs. They’ve built one to satisfy those who might want one, and to attract new customers to the brand.

I wasn't addressing your personal opinion, nor am I trying to convince you to buy an EV. But the ICE sound thing is a standard argument with old school performance car guys. And as an argument, it's overdone, existing solely because that's the direction history took. It'll disappear once history shifts.

It sounds like you're sticking with "EVs aren't for me," which is all good. But we shouldn't see you playing like there aren't any performance arguments in favor of them. We've given you a handful right off, and there'll be plenty more on the way. My sole interest in them is watching the tech evolve, not in buying in immediately. Electric tech has tremendous potential to improve all kinds of things beyond zero tailpipe emissions: sports performance, 4WD handling, car-as-generator, self-sufficient RV-ing ...
 
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mildone

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I'm not as much of a purist as you are. However, I think teslas are overhyped. It's like the Apple cult. I would rather have a taycan. Why? Because they've done the work to try to make it behave like a sports car... it's not just straight line fast. However, I'm not buying into EV's anytime soon. If I spend that much on a car that's supposed to be known for performance, I'd like to have more use out of it than a commuter and putter around town car.
I’m normally not a purest type about stuff. I’m just a car nut that loves ICEs and the sounds, and even smells, of a high performance engine.

I have nothing against EVs other than I have no interest in owning one as a sports car due to the lack of engine noise and a gearbox. If I did get one, it’d be a Taycan (like you) or e-tron GT. Or maybe a Tesla Roadster, which is the only Tesla, so far, that appeals to me visually.

But a 911 GT3, or maybe a GT3 RS if I could get a build allocation for one at MSRP without a crazy dealer markup (unlikely, but I’ll probably try when the 992 version comes out, and then settle for a 992 GT3, or a low mileage 991.2 GT3 RS, if not), is a way higher priority for me than any of those others. Listening to them wail at their naturally aspirated 9000 rpm redline is almost better than sex.

Was eating outside one day, a couple summers ago, at the Long Valley Pub and Brewery, and a GT3 RS accelerated past at wide open throttle, the engine wail echoing off the surrounding hills. I nearly wet myself in excitement. The girl I was with made fun of me about it for hours. LOL

The GT3 RS is also the only sports car without a manual gearbox I’d buy. The PDK is crazy good, and, in that car, the sounds it makes during full throttle up shifts are ethereal. The GT3 I’d probably spec a manual. The RS doesn’t offer it, but I could live without it.

Just can’t replicate that kind excitement in an EV. Not for me, at least.
 
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mildone

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I wasn't addressing your personal opinion, nor am I trying to convince you to buy an EV. But the ICE sound thing is a standard argument with old school performance car guys. And as an argument, it's overdone, existing solely because that's the direction history took. It'll disappear once history shifts.

It sounds like you're sticking with "EVs aren't for me," which is all good. But we shouldn't see you playing like there aren't any performance arguments in favor of them. We've given you a handful right off, and there'll be plenty more on the way. My sole interest in them is watching the tech evolve, not in buying in immediately. Electric tech has tremendous potential to improve all kinds of things beyond zero tailpipe emissions: sports performance, 4WD handling, car-as-generator, self-sufficient RV-ing ...
Don’t get me wrong. I’d be all over an EV SUV if it had a 600+ mile range with rapid charging infrastructure at the same level of availability as gas pumps. While I still like the sounds of a sports SUV, my primary focus in an SUV is comfort and stress-free long road trips.

I figure in ten years we might be there and I‘d get an e-SUV. About then, we’ll also have a better idea of the hidden environmental impacts of EVs nobody talks about much, in part because we don’t yet understand it fully.

Sports car wise, I’m just too in love with everything about ICEs and don’t have the money to satisfy that desire as well as whatever goodness an EV offers. I like the looks and specs of the Tesla Roadster. But it would be a 4th or 5th sports car for me. The first 3 or 4 all being great sounding ICEs.
 

lne001

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Actually, no it’s not. Not even close. F1 cars have to be able to finish the entire race without refueling, and with a strict initial fuel limit. Nowadays, in many races, the drivers have to manage fuel use throughout the race instead of just driving as fast as the car can go each lap.

Actually yes, yes I was very close. I was responding to an earlier joking comment that a Tesla running at 200mph would not get 54 miles. My response was that neither would an F1 car at those speeds. The actual real world speeds driven were not the issue. 🙂
 

RUSK97

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Oh, I see. The same reason people still like to travel by horseback (at least for short distances).
Hey now...don't knock horses as transportation. @mildone can wax poetic about PDK and 5 (6?) on the floor all he wants, there is no comparison between the experience you get from riding a horse versus any ICE. When rider and horse are sympatico, there is no equal. Nevermind the eerie whirr of an EV motor.
 
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mildone

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Take a performance Tesla out for a test-drive. Then you would not have to speculate.



How about an audio track then, any engine sounds you want, played via inside and outside speakers. I think Porsche already offers this for people of a similar mindset.



Oh, I see. The same reason people still like to travel by horseback (at least for short distances).
It’s unlikely that a new Roadster will be available for a test drive. And that’s the only Tesla I’d have any interest in, from a visual standpoint. Might be some used ones a year or two later that could be found for a short test drive. I’d love to test drive one. I doubt I’ll get the chance.

If I want to get a dealer allocation for a 992 GT3 RS, or probably even a GT4 RS, I will need to have my down payment in with a dealer that knows me long before the model hit the lots. I would be allowed to test drive my own ordered car when it arrives, before signing for the car. But I’d forfeit my down payment if I didn’t take it. All the build allocations will be spoken for before the cars hit the lots, if the past is any indicator.

That’s not uncommon with high end sports cars. If you want one before they reach their artificial production limit, you order it well before it arrives on dealer lots or you wait until the folks who preordered them resell them, often for more than they paid.

Not sure if Tesla will impose artificial production limits on the Roadster the same way Porsche or Ferrari do, but I would imagine they will with that particular model. Exclusivity means lower manufacturing operating costs and higher selling prices. But maybe they’ll use a different approach.

The sound track is a total nonstarter for me. Not into fake crap like that.

I confess I don’t understand the horseback analogy. Or maybe I do, not sure.

My point is that I don’t often have to drive places, I have no daily commute (even before COVID), and get just about everything I need delivered. Yet I put 10K miles on my newest car last year almost entirely by taking drives with no destination. Just a long loop, punctuated by fun sections where I experience a meditative joy as I wind through my gears, weaving through the turns at speed, hearing my engine and exhaust sounds reverberate through the surrounding hills, feeling the car respond instantly under me, testing the massive mechanical and/or aerodynamic grip levels through high speed curves.

In the right car, I would much rather be out doing that then taking Carribean or European vacations.
 
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RUevolution36

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It’s unlikely that a new Roadster will be available for a test drive. And that’s the only Tesla I’d have any interest in, from a visual standpoint. Might be some used ones a year or two later that could be found for a short test drive. I’d love to test drive one. I doubt I’ll get the chance.

If I want to get a dealer allocation for a 992 GT3 RS, or probably even a GT4 RS, I will need to have my down payment in with a dealer that knows me long before the model hit the lots. I would be allowed to test drive my own ordered car when it arrives, before signing for the car. But I’d forfeit my down payment if I didn’t take it. All the build allocations will be spoken for before the cars hit the lots, if the past is any indicator.

That’s not uncommon with high end sports cars. If you want one before they reach their artificial production limit, you order it well before it arrives on dealer lots or you wait until the folks who preordered them resell them, often for more than they paid.

Not sure if Tesla will impose artificial production limits on the Roadster the same way Porsche or Ferrari do, but I would imagine they will with that particular model. Exclusivity means lower manufacturing operating costs and higher selling prices. But maybe they’ll use a different approach.

The sound track is a total nonstarter for me. Not into fake crap like that.

I confess I don’t understand the horseback analogy. Or maybe I do, not sure.

My point is that I don’t often have to drive places, I have no daily commute (even before COVID), and get just about everything I need delivered. Yet I put 10K miles on my newest car last year almost entirely by taking drives with no destination. Just a long loop, punctuated by fun sections where I experience a meditative joy as I wind through my gears, weaving through the turns at speed, hearing my engine and exhaust sounds reverberate through the surrounding hills, feeling the car respond instantly under me, testing the massive mechanical and/or aerodynamic grip levels through high speed curves.

In the right car, I would much rather be out doing that then taking Carribean or European vacations.
what about european vacations where you're blasting thru gears in an italian sportscar?
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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EV's are extremely heavy and can't defy the laws of physics. Straight line speed? Yes. Throw 5000lb into a corner at speed? Good luck.
While it is true EVs are heavier (approx. 20%), it's crucial where that extra weight is distributed within the car. The greatest weight density within an EV is in the center of the vehicle, inches off the ground (the battery pack). Contrast that with an ICE where the weight is much higher off the ground and located in the front of the car.

You mentioned the laws of physics, so I would suggest reading up on them. Start with "center of mass" and then "polar moment of inertia". You'll discover you're wrong.
 

mildone

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what about european vacations where you're blasting thru gears in an italian sportscar?
That would be awesome, right?

Porsche offers a really sweet way of taking delivery of a built car in Europe. You can go to Germany, pick up your car, get a guided introduction on track. Then take a vacation anywhere in Europe you wish, drive the Autobahn, drive some amazing race-tracks, whatever. When done, you return the car to Porsche and they put it on a boat and deliver it to wherever you are. This works through the dealer from whom you obtained the build allocation, but last time I looked, costs nothing (just gotta pay for the trip itself).

Wouldn't be an Italian sportscar. But still.

I gave serious thought to doing a European delivery on a late-2018 car build. But skipped it due to being too busy in early 2019 (when it arrived) to take the time to enjoy the trip. Also would've been driving around Europe in late January, which isn't ideal. Would be better to do late Spring through early Fall.
 

RUevolution36

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While it is true EVs are heavier (approx. 20%), it's crucial where that extra weight is distributed within the car. The greatest weight density within an EV is in the center of the vehicle, inches off the ground (the battery pack). Contrast that with an ICE where the weight is much higher off the ground and located in the front of the car.

You mentioned the laws of physics, so I would suggest reading up on them. Start with "center of mass" and then "polar moment of inertia". You'll discover you're wrong.
if the net weight isn't that important, then why are so many aftermarket mods of tesla's focused on weight reduction? weight, no matter where its located on a car, matters when it comes to driving dynamics.
 
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RUevolution36

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That would be awesome, right?

Porsche offers a really sweet way of taking delivery of a built car in Europe. You can go to Germany, pick up your car, get a guided introduction on track. Then take a vacation anywhere in Europe you wish, drive the Autobahn, drive some amazing race-tracks, whatever. When done, you return the car to Porsche and they put it on a boat and deliver it to wherever you are. This works through the dealer from whom you obtained the build allocation, but last time I looked, costs nothing (just gotta pay for the trip itself).

Wouldn't be an Italian sportscar. But still.

I gave serious thought to doing a European delivery on a late-2018 car build. But skipped it due to being too busy in early 2019 (when it arrived) to take the time to enjoy the trip. Also would've been driving around Europe in late January, which isn't ideal. Would be better to do late Spring through early Fall.
a lap around the 'ring in a high end sports car is on my bucket list.
 
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mildone

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While it is true EVs are heavier (approx. 20%), it's crucial where that extra weight is distributed within the car. The greatest weight density within an EV is in the center of the vehicle, inches off the ground (the battery pack). Contrast that with an ICE where the weight is much higher off the ground and located in the front of the car.

You mentioned the laws of physics, so I would suggest reading up on them. Start with "center of mass" and then "polar moment of inertia". You'll discover you're wrong.
Wrong how?

You're greatly oversimplifying the physics and mechanical engineering involved. The fact that the weight of a battery is placed low and in the center of the mass, while unarguably impactful and important, doesn't entirely eliminate or overcome all impact of a too much additional weight, regardless of where it's located.

Which is why, for example, a Porsche Taycan (at ~5000 lbs) cannot outhandle a Porsche GT3 RS (at ~3100 lbs) or a Porsche GT4 (at ~3200 lbs). The GT3 RS is rear engine. The GT4 is mid-engine. The handling dynamics and characteristics between each of the 3 cars is very different. But the general consensus of any person capable of driving all three cars at even 7/10ths their capability will rank the Taycan's handling, while great, very obviously the worst of the 3.

Different people value different aspects of handling characteristics in different ways. The mid-engined GT4, despite it being far less powerful a car than the rear-engined GT3 RS, is often perceived as more enjoyable due to the more neutral handling characteristics caused by the mid-engine placement. OTOH, someone who values the power highly will likely get more enjoyment from the GT3 RS.

There's no "wrong" answer here. Everything depends on what priorities the buyer/driver has. If your priority is a car that's great for track days or flinging through corners on remote back roads, you would not buy a Taycan. You would opt for one of the GT cars. Even if you are driver who simply values driving engagement and handling precision over everything else, you'll opt for one of the GT cars, quite possibly the cheaper, slower GT4 versus the far more expensive, faster GT3 RS due to handling characteristics.

OTOH, if you prioritize comfort, quietness, the environment (maybe), the ability to carry 4 reasonably sized people, with handling that seems to defy physics (while actually taking advantage of physics, as you said), you'd get a Taycan over the two GT cars. OTOH, if you don't care about the environment, you might get a performance SUV instead. I can tell you from personal experience that it's truly mind-blowing what a Cayenne Turbo (~5100 LBS) w/all the performance options can do on a track.

And the Cayenne Turbo's center of gravity is quite a lot higher, and more forward, than the Taycan.
 
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patk89

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I have a degree un Nuclear Technology (Navy Nuke Mechanic) and thought i was set for life with the experience and degree.....I have not worked in the nuclear field since i left the Navy in 91',

I was always told that you guys who worked on the military nuke programs found private sector natural gas turbines a piece of cake. Ran across a lot of consultants in the power industry who had that background. All excellent.
 

mildone

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a lap around the 'ring in a high end sports car is on my bucket list.
Me too. Although I'd want to do it in someone else's race car rather than my own newly purchased Porsche. If I decide, one day, to do the Euro delivery (assuming Porsche keeps offering it), I'd take my car to the 'ring. But I would drive it at like 5/10ths. LOL

On an unrelated note...

There's a couple/few years old post on Rennlist (Porsche forums) from a guy that ordered a high-optioned GT3 RS or GT2 RS (I forget which) and took European delivery. He wanted to be super careful with his expensive, exclusive new car, so he made sure he found hotels or places to stay with garages in which to park the car. IIRC, for an overnight in one town, he rented a small house with a single car garage.

He parked and went to bed. When he woke the next morning, the entire right side of the garage (opposite the house) had been pulled down, and the car stolen. 😳

That really sucked.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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if the net weight isn't that important, then why are so many aftermarket mods of tesla's focused on weight reduction? weight, no matter where its located on a car, matters when it comes to driving dynamics.
Is after market weight reduction in Teslas really that common? I follow Tesla pretty closely and I've never heard of it other than track vehicles. But, wouldn't that be true of any racing vehicle?
And again, sorry, but you're wrong. It absolutely matters where the center of mass is in a vehicle. Why is an ice skater able to spin faster with arms tucked in? It matters. It's physics.
Lastly, if it makes you feel better, Tesla continues to innovate faster than anyone. They're going to be getting rid of battery modules in future vehicles and going with a structural battery pack instead. This will reduce weight (approx 400 lbs) and increase the concentration of weight to the lower/center of the vehicle. So, the engineers at Tesla certainly feel like center of mass is an important factor.
 

mildone

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Is after market weight reduction in Teslas really that common? I follow Tesla pretty closely and I've never heard of it other than track vehicles. But, wouldn't that be true of any racing vehicle?
And again, sorry, but you're wrong. It absolutely matters where the center of mass is in a vehicle. Why is an ice skater able to spin faster with arms tucked in? It matters. It's physics.
Lastly, if it makes you feel better, Tesla continues to innovate faster than anyone. They're going to be getting rid of battery modules in future vehicles and going with a structural battery pack instead. This will reduce weight (approx 400 lbs) and increase the concentration of weight to the lower/center of the vehicle. So, the engineers at Tesla certainly feel like center of mass is an important factor.
LOL. You are a serious Tesla fan-boy.

I'm a Porsche fan-boy (which I'm sure is obvious). Always loved the brand. I knew I wanted a 911 back when I was only 10 or so and we were behind a beautiful 911 Turbo for miles on the highway.

Fan boy as I may be, even I know that a statement like "Porsche continues to innovate faster than anyone" would be as ridiculous as saying that about Tesla or any other brand. Absolutisms are fun, but are also rarely proven correct.

Incidentally, that ice-skater analogy of yours? Which ice skater is going to win a race with lots of turns in it - the one that weighs 120 pounds, or the one that weighs 67% more than that with lots of that in his big, low, fat ass? Cars don't just spin in place.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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LOL. You are a serious Tesla fan-boy.

I'm a Porsche fan-boy (which I'm sure is obvious). Always loved the brand. I knew I wanted a 911 back when I was only 10 or so and we were behind a beautiful 911 Turbo for miles on the highway.

Fan boy as I may be, even I know that a statement like "Porsche continues to innovate faster than anyone" would be as ridiculous as saying that about Tesla or any other brand. Absolutisms are fun, but are also rarely proven correct.

Incidentally, that ice-skater analogy of yours? Which ice skater is going to win a race with lots of turns in it - the one that weighs 120 pounds, or the one that weighs 67% more than that with lots of that in his big, low, fat ass? Cars don't just spin in place.
I've done my homework in the EV field, and I stand by my Tesla statement 100%. Don't believe me? Sandy Munro, who I'm sure you know, says the same thing:

Innovating at the speed of thought

As for your analogy, here's the Model S (a 4-door sedan), with it's big fat ass, lumbering around Laguna Seca in record time.

 

mildone

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Dec 19, 2011
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I've done my homework in the EV field, and I stand by my Tesla statement 100%. Don't believe me? Sandy Munro, who I'm sure you know, says the same thing:

Innovating at the speed of thought

As for your analogy, here's the Model S (a 4-door sedan), with it's big fat ass, lumbering around Laguna Seca in record time.

You are failing to get the point. And it was your analogy that you’re now abandoning because it no longer serves the purpose you intended.

The point is that a 5000 pound car is at a great disadvantage on track compared to a 3200 pound car, all other things being equal. Even adding that weight in the center and very low cannot compensate for the weight difference.

The guy who posted that video showed an unverified, unofficial lap time of 1:30 by an unverified car with 1100 hp (purportedly a Tesla model s plaid) with unknown equipment in it. And he compared that to a 991 911 GT2 RS, with only 691 hp, and a lap time of 1:28.

Build the GT2 RS up to 1100 hp, which might add 50 pounds or so, and then compare lap times between the 3250 pound Porsche and the ~5000 pound Tesla. The lap times in the now fair competition, which will be comparing handling of the two different weight cars, will be much farther apart.

Look, this isn’t even a debatable thing. When was the last time you saw a race car designer beg to add weight to the chassis? In order to keep an F1 race fair, the teams have to meet a minimum weight for the driver and his gear, and they have add ballast to the car when the, usually tiny, drivers don’t weigh enough. Because being too light, even by a few pounds, is too much of an advantage.

Ask any F1 engineer if they would rather make the race car lighter or heavier, giving them the option to put the added weight anywhere they wish. And 100 out of 100 engineers will laugh at the stupidity of the question.

As to the hyperbolic absolute about Tesla innovating faster than anyone else, it’s utterly impossible thing to know or prove. One would have to know what innovations are quietly taking place at all the various automotive manufacturers and even then the phrase “innovating faster than anyone else“ is too subjective a thing to prove.

You have to substantially narrow the scope of the statement, and then precisely define the term “innovating” before you could get close to reasonableness.

If you want to say Tesla is doing awesome work on electric vehicles and battery tech, then I’d agree 100%. One wonders if they aren’t doing an even better job marketing than innovating, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Beware absolutes.
 
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BROTHERSKINNY

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Given that not everyone will have easy access to a charging station, including apartment/condo/coop owners/renters, I'd say demand will will be there for at least a few more decades.
This is going to be a decades long process. ICE are going to be getting more efficient as time goes on. I am not convinced electric vehicles are more environmentally friendly than ICE cars. Still lots of questions need to be answered before EV’s become the norm.
 

RUevolution36

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This is going to be a decades long process. ICE are going to be getting more efficient as time goes on. I am not convinced electric vehicles are more environmentally friendly than ICE cars. Still lots of questions need to be answered before EV’s become the norm.
omg...we agree on something...
 
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jtung230

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Honda Accord discussions are always fun on TKR. Should be the official car of Rutgers.
 

SkilletHead2

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I have a Nissan Leaf with a 62 kw battery and a Toyota Yaris SUV cross hybrid (small SUV). Had the Leaf for about six months and the Yaris for about 3 months.

Both are excellent cars for what I want and need. The Leaf is our main vehicle as we can go anywhere we need daily on just a fraction of the battery range. But we just took a longish road trip and took the Yaris for that. Got 55 mpg on the Yaris. Plently of room for the two of us and a fair amount of baggage. Will seat four very nicely. The power on the Yaris is not as good as the Leaf (which has excellent power and acceleration). If I were to only have one car, it would probably be the Yaris because I want to be able to go long trips without having to worry about recharging.

But since we have two cars, the Leaf is by far my favorite. Really fun to drive and the gas savings is substantial as gas is expensive down here. I never recharge at a charging station. Just do so at home every 2-3 days. If you have two cars, having one of them be a kind of runabout electric is a good idea. And the hybrid really saves on gas.