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OT: Lance Armstrong - 30 for 30

T2Kplus10

T2Kplus10

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Feb 24, 2010
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Watched most of part one last night, pretty damn good. He seems to be giving an honest account of his career and the sport. Complicated person - cancer survivor who started a movement and probably raised more money for cancer research than any other person in history. As a sportsman, he cheated and tried to ruin the lives of anyone that attempted to out him. That last part is far worse than the doping, which was almost universally prevalent in the sport at that time. I remember ESPN showing a graphic of the 22 riders that came in 2nd to 5th place in the 7 TDFs that Lance won. 21 of them were caught doping and the 22nd was under investigation, but retired.

Someone posed the following about Lance, saying it is complicated to assess him. Is he a good person that did some bad things or a bad person that did some good things?

Great documentary, well done.
 
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I’m big cycling fan.

No way were the 21 or 22 cyclists doping.
Lance was a big time cheater! He should be in jail!
 
wcfan10 said:
I’m big cycling fan.

No way were the 21 or 22 cyclists doping.
Lance was a big time cheater! He should be in jail!
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Here's the info, I was a little wrong on the #'s:

"The report recommends that no other riders who finished behind Armstrong be awarded his Tour de France titles. It says at least 20 of the 21 riders who finished in the Tour’s top three from 1999 through 2005 have been directly tied to likely doping."

https://www.rferl.org/a/lance-armstrong-cycling-uci-decision-tour-de-france/24746661.html
 
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I just can’t get into a sport where fans can’t see 99 percent of the event. That is why I would never go to a road course race and even stopped going to the NASCAR races at Pocono. Most of the race, the cars just looked like colored dots miles away. Delaware is like watching a race in a really big stadium. In the big bicycle races, do they test before or after the race?
 
Sounds like the whole sport is a mess with cheating. Lance comes off as a bad person to me. Yes he helped a LOT of people, but that is as more circumstancial than anything else - and before we crown him Mother Theresa let’s remember that he made a boatload of money off this and may have very well gotten cancer from cheating. I did like the 30 for 30 though, just not Lance.
 
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EVERYONE was doping at the time. EVERYONE. I was not a cycling fan during the era of Lance. One summer I watched almost all of the TDF coverage. Once I understood the drama of the race, I became addicted to it. Now I own 3 cycle machines and look forward to the TDF.
 
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If he was from Belgium or Denmark nobody would give two .....

Because he was American it was/is a blg deal.

To be fair, I never watched a second of TTDF previous to him.
 
tom1944 said:
I started following TTDF with Greg Lemond. I don’t believe Lemond ever doped
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I agree about LeMond and would bet he never doped. He was an early doubter of Lance (and many others) and was proven correct.

My problem with Lance is that he was such a prick about everything. Yes, the cancer charity was/is good but he was vicious to anyone who didn't believe him. I'd love to see him and Betsy Andreau in a person to person "discussion".

Dirty as cycling has been (and may still be - who knows), I still love watching the races.
 
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I love the TDF and am a big fan of Armstrong the athlete. The fact that he doped doesn’t bother me — all of the elite riders did. It was the culture of the sport. I never believed he was clean but he wasn’t taking something that others were not. He was still the best of the best (albeit in a sport where everyone was doping).
 
The topic of previous doping was discussed in part 1 last night. Performance enhancing chemicals existed for a long time. The difference was when the technology growth brought new and illegal doping.
 
T2Kplus10 said:
Here's the info, I was a little wrong on the #'s:

"The report recommends that no other riders who finished behind Armstrong be awarded his Tour de France titles. It says at least 20 of the 21 riders who finished in the Tour’s top three from 1999 through 2005 have been directly tied to likely doping."

https://www.rferl.org/a/lance-armstrong-cycling-uci-decision-tour-de-france/24746661.html
Click to expand...
Biking is the dirtiest sport out there. I just assumed everyone was on drugs.
 
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Cycling has always been "dirty," the European professionals have always looked for a way to get a leg up on the competition. All those teams were cheating during that time period, the two biggest issues they had with Armstrong was that he was dominating the sport and he was an obnoxious Texan, not necessarily the drug taking per se.
 
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bitnez said:
I love the TDF and am a big fan of Armstrong the athlete. The fact that he doped doesn’t bother me — all of the elite riders did. It was the culture of the sport. I never believed he was clean but he wasn’t taking something that others were not. He was still the best of the best (albeit in a sport where everyone was doping).
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As T2K mentioned in his OP it is not the doping but what Armstrong did to protect his secret that makes him a real scumbag.

There were people whose lives and careers he ruined just to keep the charade going. I remember reading years ago a newspaper story about a guy who owned a bike shop geared to the racing community. He got on the wrong side of Armstrong who had him blackballed. The guy ended up having to close up shop here and move to Australia to try and reestablish his livelihood.
 
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RUforlife said:
Cycling has always been "dirty," the European professionals have always looked for a way to get a leg up on the competition. All those teams were cheating during that time period, the two biggest issues they had with Armstrong was that he was dominating the sport and he was an obnoxious Texan, not necessarily the drug taking per se.
Click to expand...

I don’t know — Americans (Texans and all) felt as betrayed by Lance as anyone. Perhaps because we’re not avid fans of the sport in this country, we were a bit naive to the extent of the doping, but I think we all assumed he was winning ‘the right way.’
 
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T2Kplus10 said:
There was no epo or blood doping until 1993, several years after Lemond. Not sure how common taking other PEDs were back then.
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As they pointed out in the 30 for 30 documentary, cyclists during the 70's and 80's were regularly using cocaine and methamphetamine (and not just to have a good time). Prior to that, cyclists were looking to other enhancements to improve their performance. Not necessarily to win the race but so that they could endure it - and that's an important distinction. It's such a brutal event that riders have always looked for other ways just to help them survive.
 
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T2Kplus10 said:
It's very likely that during Lance's time every top rider was doping. Literally every single one.
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Some better than others. US Postal was just the best at it. Lance, with all his wins, days in Yellow and top 3 finishes was tested more than anyone for 10 years. Never tested positive. He is the Barry Bonds of cycling.
 
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T2Kplus10 said:
There was no epo or blood doping until 1993, several years after Lemond. Not sure how common taking other PEDs were back then.
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Epogen was approved by the FDA in 1989 and its use on-label and off-label spread like wildfire. I wouldn’t be surprised if teams started using EPO by 1990 or 91. Guys like Johan Bruyneel were constantly actively searching for the next hot new thing.
 
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RUSK97 said:
Epogen was approved by the FDA in 1989 and its use on-label and off-label spread like wildfire. I wouldn’t be surprised if teams started using EPO by 1990 or 91. Guys like Johan Bruyneel were constantly actively searching for the next hot new thing.
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Good point, Lance said EPO started in the late 80s, but most were scared of it and not sure how harmful it was. Widespread use started a few years later.
 
Documentary at least Part 1 was ok to me. I am not and was never that interested in Lance Armstrong - though his efforts with Cancer Research / Fundraising is phenomenal !

I found Greg Lemond's story and feats much greater and historical - plus he did it the right way ! LeMond is a true American Hero and unfortunately he doesn't get the attention he deserves because of Armstrong.
 
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TdF is nuts - race 2200 miles and win by 8 seconds (LeMond). Its hard to get an edge with the bikes the way Lemond did (new aero handlebar rests). The top riders are generally pretty close. To win, a rider has to break away from the pack (everyone in the pack gets same finish time no matter when they cross line) and gain time. That is hard to do, and its usually in the mountains where the top riders get leads. The sprinters generally do not do well in mountains. The top ten riders can be close so if one dopes its a big advantage - which is why most of them do it.

Doping aside, Lance was a good rider. Its not like any tomato can dope and win the TdF. Lance was good at time trial and sprint legs too. He had record for fastest TdF ever. Racing in 2003 was hard with the war and nasty crowds giving LA a very hard time. He was a tough nut to crack. Maybe he was just a sociopath.
 
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tom1944 said:
The language was bleeped out on the replay today
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Similar to the Jordan documentary, ESPN has been playing the clean version on ESPN, and the unedited version on ESPN2. Maybe you watched on ESPN2 the first time.
 
If Lance walked away quietly after the 7th and kept a low profile, everyone would have left things in the past and moved on.

Seems like his bravado and keeping a high profile kept the pressure on to out him.
 
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Caliknight said:
Biking is the dirtiest sport out there. I just assumed everyone was on drugs.
Click to expand...

WWW......if you can call that a sport.

Joel at Belmar Nautilus/Iron City Gym used to have a couple of them working out at the gym. About once a month he had to have a plumber come and snake out the bathroom drain for discarded needles.

He finally banned them....the wrestlers...
 
BigWill said:
WWW......if you can call that a sport.

Joel at Belmar Nautilus/Iron City Gym used to have a couple of them working out at the gym. About once a month he had to have a plumber come and snake out the bathroom drain for discarded needles.

He finally banned them....the wrestlers...
Click to expand...


When I used to train at the Club in Woodbridge in the 80's many wrestlers worked out there.

Similar issues.
 
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Joel sold out and retired to Florida after Sandy.

He had to have an almost total heart replacement, but is doing fine now. Trains old geezers now using the elastic bands.

I can recall him taking so many vitamins from that Husband/Wife long haired duo Sandy and whatever, that had a book out about vitamins. It was hundreds of dollars a month to keep up with what they recommended.

He was NEVER on drugs/roids.
 
BigWill said:
Joel sold out and retired to Florida after Sandy.

He had to have an almost total heart replacement, but is doing fine now. Trains old geezers now using the elastic bands.

I can recall him taking so many vitamins from that Husband/Wife long haired duo Sandy and whatever, that had a book out about vitamins. It was hundreds of dollars a month to keep up with what they recommended.

He was NEVER on drugs/roids.
Click to expand...


What I have learned is you cant beat having good genetics
 
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