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OT: MLB HOF Announcement coming at 6...

Putting Selig in ended that debate. With the biggest enabler of the steroid era in, how can you justify keeping out Bonds and Clemens? At least they played. At this point, A-Rod's cousin Yuri may as well be in...
 
Bonds and Clemens appear to be falling short, but possibly both will be over 60%, up sharply from last year's 44% - 45% ... their vote total has generally risen each year, though this year will be a big jump.

Seemingly Sure: Raines and Bagwell.

Possible: Hoffman, Pudge and Vlad

Raines is WAY overdue.
 
Mussina had more votes than Schilling, Posada off the ballot at only 3.8%. Hoffman and Guerrero both fell just short, will probably get in next year.
 
Glad Raines got in.

Personally I feel like Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in, so I don't have a problem with Bagwell or Pudge getting in.
 
There's about 15 guys that need to be in now. The writers who are just as at fault for the steroids era should all be disallowed from voting.
 
Al Oliver was a 7 time All Star and batted over 300 11 times in his career. Career average .303. One of the most feared hitters of the 1970s. Yet not in the Hall.
 
I'm surprised Hoffman received so many votes. Billy Wagner was a significantly better closer when you look at every category except saves. I don't understand how he's polling so far ahead of Wagner.

Although I agree with the three who won election, the HOF voting rationalizations seem to get worse every year.

They're beginning to reward accumulators who probably wouldn't have been elected in the past. However, due to steroids they rationalize rewarding clean good, not great, players by granting them admission. I thinks it's diminishing the importance of the HOF.
 
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I'm surprised Hoffman received so many votes. Billy Wagner was a significantly better closer when you look at every category except saves. I don't understand how he's polling so far ahead of Wagner.

Although I agree with the three who won election, the HoF voting rationalizations seems to get worse every year.
I'll agree with that.
 
Al Oliver was a 7 time All Star and batted over 300 11 times in his career. Career average .303. One of the most feared hitters of the 1970s. Yet not in the Hall.
I played with him and against him for years, he doesn't have HOF power numbers and was not a good fielder.
Here's an interesting tidbit, Al Oliver, Larry Hisle and Gene Tenace all played on the same American Legion team.
 
Question: why do you need power (hr) numbers to be a hall of famer? Hitting .300 11 times? Agree that injuries reduced his fielding in later years....but many many Hall of Famers were bad (average or even below average) fielders. Look at Reggie Jackson as a fielder! Guys like Carew, Boggs hit for average--not power. Oliver hit in similar fashion--he sprayed the field--a real gap hitter. Can't see guys like Raines, Bagwell etc and not Oliver. Oliver was one of the best hitters--a great--hitter--in his day. He lacked the charisma--for lack of a better term--of other players. But that should not keep him out of the Hall. Just my two cents....
 
Question: why do you need power (hr) numbers to be a hall of famer? Hitting .300 11 times? Agree that injuries reduced his fielding in later years....but many many Hall of Famers were bad (average or even below average) fielders. Look at Reggie Jackson as a fielder! Guys like Carew, Boggs hit for average--not power. Oliver hit in similar fashion--he sprayed the field--a real gap hitter. Can't see guys like Raines, Bagwell etc and not Oliver. Oliver was one of the best hitters--a great--hitter--in his day. He lacked the charisma--for lack of a better term--of other players. But that should not keep him out of the Hall. Just my two cents....
Really good not really great.

That's my thing and if you have to ask is the other.
 
None of the 3 belong in the Hall. All were very good. None were great. The Hall should be for the greats--not the very good.
 
Question: why do you need power (hr) numbers to be a hall of famer? Hitting .300 11 times? Agree that injuries reduced his fielding in later years....but many many Hall of Famers were bad (average or even below average) fielders. Look at Reggie Jackson as a fielder! Guys like Carew, Boggs hit for average--not power. Oliver hit in similar fashion--he sprayed the field--a real gap hitter. Can't see guys like Raines, Bagwell etc and not Oliver. Oliver was one of the best hitters--a great--hitter--in his day. He lacked the charisma--for lack of a better term--of other players. But that should not keep him out of the Hall. Just my two cents....

Al Oliver may have hit in a similar fashion to Boggs & Carew - but there isn't really any comparison. Oliver's best season was '82 when he hit .331. Both Boggs & Carew had .328 career averages and eclipsed the magic 3,000 hit plateau. Boggs had 1,400 walks (!) and Carew over 350 stolen bases while playing 1/2 his games at 2B. The main thing I remember about Al Oliver is he was a decent hitter and wore the number 0.

As for Raines, he's #5 all time in steals and was dominant in his position for several years. Lifetime .294 hitter with several years better than Oliver.

Bagwell? Given he was in the steroid era, I am skeptical of his numbers. He never struck me as HOF while watching him.
 
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I'll agree with that.

Totally, totally 100% disagree!!!!
Hoffman is a no brainer (obviously I'm biased). You have to take into account that Hoffman pitched for some horrible teams. As a result his save opportunities were considerably lower than someone like Rivera or Wagner.
In addition Hoffman had nearly 180 more career saves than Wagner. Don't get me wrong, Wagner was a very good pitcher, but if you say that he is much better than Hoffman you obviously didn't see Hoffman pitch enough.
 
Oliver certainly doesn't seem to have HoF numbers. You really can't consider comparing him to Carew or Boggs. They are in different leagues.

But my favorite line in this thread is the argument that Wagner was a better closer except for saves. Hard to argue with that.
 
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In re Oliver: A terrific hitter, but a classic compiler. I believe compilers CAN and SHOULD be Hall of Famers. But compilers need to achieve certain compiling stats. For hitters, especially those without power or speed, they MUST get 3000 hits - or maybe 1500 or 1600 RBI, or have some other distinguishing feature (like spectacular fielding, or awesome post season play). Oliver did not. Yes, Oliver did have 11 .300 BA seasons, including 9 in a row. But he only hit 20 HR is a season 2 times, and only had 100 RBI in a season 2 times. He only had 1 season with a top 5 MVP finish. He only had what anyone would consider 1 big season (1982: .331 BA to lead the league, 22 HR and 109 RBI - the RBI also led the league). He was never considered the best player at his position in ANY single season - even in 1982, his big year, when he finished tied for 3rd in the MVP, he was not considered the best 1B in the league (where he played in 1982): Keith Hernandez was. None of the players to whom Al Oliver might be deemed "truly similar" are Hall of Fame players - though several might be marginally close (his 5 most truly similar peers are: Stever Garvey, Garrett Anderson, Bill Buckner, Vada Pinson and Dave Parker - Pinson and Parker might be considered marginal Hall of Fame CANDIDATES ... Garvey, Buckner and Anderson are clearly NOT ... good players, not Hall of Famers).

Al Oliver was a terrific BA hitter, a really good line drive hitter, who was able to sustain his hitting for a long time. He deserved at least consideration for entry into the Hall of Fame. He would not be the WORST player in the Hall of Fame. But the standard for the Hall of Fame should not be whether a player meets the LOWEST standard already in the Hall of Fame (why justify marginal candidates based on prior MISTAKES), but whether a player is truly deserving ... is he the best, or one of the best players eligible who is NOT yet in the Hall of Fame ... or is he the best, or one of the best players at his POSITION, at least, who is not yet in the Hall of Fame. Al Oliver does not meet those standards - not really even close.

So ... here are modern-day hitters who are eligible for the Hall of Fame (i.e. on the ballot, or had been on the ballot, but fell off), but not yet in the Hall Fame, in order of their Hall of Fame Career Standards stat:

1) Barry Bonds (OF) - different universe

2) Vlad Guerrero (OF) - different planet

3) Jeff Kent (2B) - fewer hits, lower BA, many more HR and RBI, middle infielder

4) Luis Gonzalez (OF): 200 fewer hits, lower BA, more RBI, way more HR, not a Hall of Famer

5) Fred McGriff (1B): Another compiler - fewer hits, lower BA, way more RBI and HR

6) Bernie Williams (OF): compiler with fewer years, many fewer hits, more HR, similar BA and RBI, way better fielder, unlikely Hall of Famer.

7) Moises Alou (OF): Better BA, similar RBI, more HR, more big years, many fewer hits ... NOT a Hall of Famer.

8) Harold Baines (OF/DH): Lower BA - though good, same hits, way more HR and RBI, no truly big years - classic compiler who hit an RBI hurdle (1600+), but missed the Hits and HR hurdles of 3000 and 400 or 500. Career stats truly similar to Hall of Famer Tony Perez , somewhat similar to Kaline, Billy Williams, Dawson and Parker - 3 of whom are in the Hall. But Perez, Dawson and Williams all had big years.

9) Carlos Delgado (1B): Lower BA, many fewer hits, but many, many more HR and more RBI ... many more big seasons, 9 100 RBI seasons (7 in a row), 10 straight and 11 of 12 30+ HR years.

10) Dwight Evans (OF): Much lower BA, and many fewer hits, but many more HR, more RBI and was a spectacularly good fielder.

11) Ted Simmons (C/1B/LF): Lower BA and many fewer hits, similar HR and RBI ... but half his games were at C, for goodness sake.

Others (similar in some ways, but probably all lesser candidates even with higher Hall of Fame Career Standards stat): Lou Whitaker, Will Clark, Ellis Burks, Julio Franco, Kenny Lofton, Mark McGwire, Dave Parker, Juan Gonzalez.

My point is that Oliver, though a fine hitter, is not even close to being the best hitter eligible for the Hall of Fame who has not yet been selected. Of the 11 listed players above, I would very easily rate Bonds, Vlad, Kent, McGriff, Delgado and Evans ahead of where I would put Oliver ... and Luis Gonzalez, Baines, Alou and Simmons as pretty similar credentials ... with Oliver ahead of Alou and Simmons, for sure ... maybe Baines as well.

Plus, there are more players becoming eligible over the next few years, many of whom will rank ahead of Oliver - meaning he will almost NEVER be the best or one of the best hitter or player NOT in the Hall of Fame.
 
Although I agree with the three who won election, the HOF voting rationalizations seem to get worse every year.

I'll agree with that.

Totally, totally 100% disagree!!!!
Hoffman is a no brainer (obviously I'm biased). You have to take into account that Hoffman pitched for some horrible teams. As a result his save opportunities were considerably lower than someone like Rivera or Wagner.
In addition Hoffman had nearly 180 more career saves than Wagner. Don't get me wrong, Wagner was a very good pitcher, but if you say that he is much better than Hoffman you obviously didn't see Hoffman pitch enough.
I was only agreeing with the bolded above my post. Was making no comment on the selections.
 
None of the 3 belong in the Hall. All were very good. None were great. The Hall should be for the greats--not the very good.

Bagwell ranks sixth all-time in JAWS among 1B.
Raines ranks eighth all-time in JAWS among LF.
Pudge ranks third all-time in JAWS among C.

Not too bad if you ask me.
 
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