OT: UNC Scandal Update... UNC Responds to NCAA ANOA

[RUinPinehurst]

Interpretations should hit the web soon, but for those interested, see UNC's 73-page response at: http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/u...ponse-to-ncaas-amended-notice-of-allegations/
http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/u...ponse-to-ncaas-amended-notice-of-allegations/

 

[RUinPinehurst]

In short, looks like UNC is saying what happened here is academic in nature, and, as such, it is not the NCAA's purview. The "Irregular" classes were "attended" by and available to all students, not just student-athletes. No self-imposed penalty offered. UNC is basically giving the NCAA and its member institutions "the finger." Some brazen stuff coming out of Chapel Hill.

How will the NCAA and its COI respond? Will they roll over and say, "Yeah. UNC, you're right. Sorry for the inconvenience." Or will the NCAA step up, under public pressure, under Congressional pressure, under member institution pressure, and put the Heels in their rightful place for a a few years?

More to come. . . .

 

[knightfan7]

UNC will fight this with everything they have. They will outspend the NCAA and drag it on in the courts till the NCAA gives up.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

An early response from a Duke-centric source: the Duke Basketball Report. See below or online at: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com...a-middle-finger-to-the-ncaa-and-everyone-else

UNC’s Response To the NCAA Is A Middle Finger To the NCAA And Everyone Else
By JD King

@DBRTweetz on Aug 2, 2016, 3:19p

We’ll have more later but for now here’s a quick response to UNC’s response to the NCAA’s Amended Notice of Allegations. Basically it’s this:

Yeah, we did it, you don't have jurisdiction, so piss off.

That pretty much sums it up.

The best part is UNC’s suggestion that the NCAA’s statute of limitations had run out (this was in an earlier version of the article linked above).

Somehow UNC failed to point out that a) the university consistently dragged this out, preferring obfuscation to transparency, and b) that the delay when UNC self-reported two new violations in 2015 pushed the day of reckoning back even further.

So basically the reason why UNC is challenging the statute of limitations is that UNC chose to make things take this long. Talk about chutzpah.

UNC can now replace the old joke which defines chutzpah as a guy who kills his parents then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he’s an orphan.

This is even richer.

As UNC whistleblower Mary Willingham said, UNC has protected the brand at all costs. Men’s basketball got to compete for a national championship (thanks to Villanova, they didn’t get that bit of undeserved glory) and football hasn’t really been punished at all.

Women’s basketball is going to get clobbered but the brand has been protected.

Our joke here has been that UNC now is really, or may as well be, UNLV-Chapel Hill. Theres not much difference between what happened at Vegas under Jerry Tarkanian and what happened at UNC over nearly two decades, except that Tark was at least honest. He knew his kids weren’t all college-level students. He figured if he could teach them a little they were at least better off.

UNC hasn’t had even that level of honesty, much less humility.

The UNC we thought we knew, the one that claimed to be proud of student-athletes, that said it took education seriously, that wouldn’t compromise itself with ads in its arenas and coliseums - that UNC is dead.

UNC-Las Vegas is the new reality. Cheating is no big deal unless you get caught, and even then, it’s not really anyone’s business.

The proud state university, the public Ivy that everyone was so proud of - even Duke fans largely bought it and took a bit of pride in it - it was all a fraud.

It’s been in the grave for a while now. Today UNC just shoveled more dirt on it. That’s what it amounts to.

 

[AshSaturday]

UNC will fight this with everything they have. They will outspend the NCAA and drag it on in the courts till the NCAA gives up.

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

 

[Abro1975]

I think decades of phony classes is a bit more serious than 1 instance of a dopey coach trying to keep a dopey kid eligible. And those arrests last year were an outlier when you look at the many years with zero arrests. UNC deserves a 5 year death penalty in football , MBB, WBB and some other sports.

 

[motorb54]

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

What team does this jackass really support?

 

[RU848789]

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

Are you really this dumb or are you trollng?

 

[RUinPinehurst]

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

You're a very funny guy. Comparing RU's athletic missteps to what went on at UNC since 1989 is comical. Whatever credibility you believed you had is now forever lost.

 

[MozRU]

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

So what you are saying is, as long as the rest of the student body is excellent, your athletic programs do not need to follow the rules.

Holy f'in sh*t! What a DBag

 

[knightfan7]

Are you really this dumb or are you trollng?

I'm afraid he's right in one regard. The NCAA has never shown the balls to punish an institution of UNC's visibility for cheating as severely as they deserve since USC. They totally screwed up the Miami stuff.

f there were any justice UNC should have their football and basketball programs shut down for a few years. I'm afraid they'll get off pretty lightly.

 

[RUNVA]

NVAA will say, "You are right. These classes were open to everyone.We are going to pass on this."

 

[Scarlet Jerry]

This is a landmark case, and frankly, if the NCAA does not impose stiff penalties, the floodgate of cheating at other football factories will open. Fake classes for athletes will become commonplace.

-Scarlet Jerry

 

[AshSaturday]

I think decades of phony classes is a bit more serious than 1 instance of a dopey coach trying to keep a dopey kid eligible. And those arrests last year were an outlier when you look at the many years with zero arrests. UNC deserves a 5 year death penalty in football , MBB, WBB and some other sports.[/QUOTE
]
Agreed but that Rutgers class was known by players to be a class where they would do well-if they showed up. Also from my undergrad experience (1981-6): 1) was in classes where players were passed just because they were on thev team 2) A player in that class (another section I believe) stole my book and cost me an A on the midterm costing me my overall grade. The prof and Dean-a friend of football coincidentally allowed all A studentsx at that pomt to opt out of the final-coincidentally making the pool of those takijg the final to be weaker then it would hav e been 3)My friend on the team noted several classes set up to make things easier for players 4) I saw that same players name in a handwritten note onm that prof's PC. However my friend didn';t take chemistry and I doubt he coluld have passed. He went on to an executive career at Merck.

Grade influencing "dopey coach" and player-is a VERY SEROUS OFFENSE.

All programs cut corners one way or another. I thought Rutgers to be fairly immune-until last year.

 

[AshSaturday]

So what you are saying is, as long as the rest of the student body is excellent, your athletic programs do not need to follow the rules.

Holy f'in sh*t! What a DBag

No what I'm saying is that cheating is cheating. Rutgers got caught last year (coincidentally on the day armed robberies with players was con the front page). You can ignore reality if you like. There are some good mental health centers and hospitals for those who consistently act like you are acting.

I hope UNC gets penalized. That kind of stuff (as well as what happened at RU last year
devalues all of our Rutgers degrees and hurts both out in-statev rep (as bad as any state school in the country) and recruiting.

 

[MozRU]

No what I'm saying is that cheating is cheating. Rutgers got caught last year (coincidentally on the day armed robberies with players was con the front page). You can ignore reality if you like. There are some good mental health centers and hospitals for those who consistently act like you are acting.

I hope UNC gets penalized. That kind of stuff (as well as what happened at RU last year
devalues all of our Rutgers degrees and hurts both out in-statev rep (as bad as any state school in the country) and recruiting.

You are delusional or truly unintelligent if you think there is any comparison to RU's one football transgression and UNC two decades of sham classes for the sake of winning.

You make the make the SEC blush with what you did. The only thing you didn't do was also outright play players.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

At UNC, it is winning above all. This cheating scandal involved fake classes, illegal grade changes via forged signatures, and plagiarism, and involved some six other "sympathetic" departments beyond AFAM. While other students may have found their way into the scam classes, that does not change the fact that the classes were created for athletes and that the classes (and the other tactics) were part of a systematic strategy to keep athletes academically eligible, athletes in revenue-generating sports. 23 of the first 25 players involved in the fake classes were Dean Smith's players, going back to 1989, as that was UNC's own admission, as revealed in its response to SACS, its accreditation agency which had placed the school on probation for its athletics-driven academic fraud. The cheating may have begun well before that.

In all, UNC has spent six years and more than $10 million on legal and PR dealing with this scandal, documenting and admitting its transgressions, and yet the power structure of the school offers ZERO self-imposed sanctions. Nothing. And they continue to deflect and obfuscate, in brazen fashion, disrespecting the NCAA and its member institutions.

And the public revelation of the whole mess started when Julius Peppers' transcript was errantly placed on a public server and then shared with the media via a fan from a rival school. If not for that, the original systematic scam would likely still be in place.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

UNC is at this point daring the NCAA to give them the death penalty, they are outright taunting them. The NCAA might be too feeble, chicksheet and broken to do anything about it besides drowning in their own drool.

 

[AshSaturday]

At UNC, it is winning above all. This cheating scandal involved fake classes, illegal grade changes via forged signatures, and plagiarism, and involved some six other "sympathetic" departments beyond AFAM. While other students may have found their way into the scam classes, that does not change the fact that the classes were created for athletes and that the classes (and the other tactics) were part of a systematic strategy to keep athletes academically eligible, athletes in revenue-generating sports. 23 of the first 25 players involved in the fake classes were Dean Smith's players, going back to 1989, as that was UNC's own admission, as revealed in its response to SACS, its accreditation agency which had placed the school on probation for its athletics-driven academic fraud. The cheating may have begun well before that.

In all, UNC has spent six years and more than $10 million on legal and PR dealing with this scandal, documenting and admitting its transgressions, and yet the power structure of the school offers ZERO self-imposed sanctions. Nothing. And they continue to deflect and obfuscate, in brazen fashion, disrespecting the NCAA and its member institutions.

And the public revelation of the whole mess started when Julius Peppers' transcript was errantly placed on a public server and then shared with the media via a fan from a rival school. If not for that, the original systematic scam would likely still be in place.

Penalze

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Penalze

You are a UNC alumnus. As such, what, in your view, is a fitting penalty? And why, in your view, has your Alma Mater not offered any self-imposed sanctions?

 

[NickyNewark51]

I think decades of phony classes is a bit more serious than 1 instance of a dopey coach trying to keep a dopey kid eligible. And those arrests last year were an outlier when you look at the many years with zero arrests. UNC deserves a 5 year death penalty in football , MBB, WBB and some other sports.

You're right....seems we have Alums/fans prouder of their ''other'' degree and bought in to the propaganda.

 

[RU from Jersey]

It amazes me how so called men of integrity(Paterno & Smith) would allow winning at all costs to take over their programs. They came off as the nice fatherly type, but inside they were egotistical maniacs that would stop at nothing to keep the train moving forward.

 

[Dpgru]

Here we go again. Nothing significant is going to happen to UNC. The NCAA is not in a position to get tough with a powerful p5 school. They will talk loud and rattle some sabers but in the end they will back off.

 

[LC-88]

This is a landmark case, and frankly, if the NCAA does not impose stiff penalties, the floodgate of cheating at other football factories will open. Fake classes for athletes will become commonplace.

-Scarlet Jerry

Agree with your assesment. Only thing I would change is to add the word "wider" after the word "open".

 

[new jersey1]

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

Comparing apples to oranges. And what happened at RU last year likely wouldn't have been an issue at Carolina.
How about thinking before you press the post button.

 

[AshSaturday]

Yes and no. Both are bad and both schools should be severely punished for a lack of institutional control. Problem is pretty much all major schools do the same thing. Someone mentioned finding transcripts. Indirectly I know of someone who knew someone who discovered similar at Villanova about time they won their 1st NCAA hoops title. Another, if he didn't witness similar at Maryland saw Len Bias snort coke his 1st weekend on campus a few years before he passed (Maryland claimed he overdosed his 1st time trying).

I believe both UNC and Rutgers should both have received death penalty sentences-RU to a lesser extent. However doing so disrupts much and hurts us fans. Plus if all schools who did such were simarily penalized there wouldn't be many schools left.

 

[TheB1GTerp]

As a UNC grad disgusting. However, while your well-meaning friend in Pinehurst Freddie G was making a mess in New Brunswick UNC was "building their academic brand" through sports. Thus the school is top rated and the NCAA won't come down that hard.

Disgusted at UNC but this happens everywhere. Hate to say as a 2-time RU grad but RU proved itself no different last year if not worse. The Football support staff couldn't get players to attend an everything but no show "music appreciation" class. And yes, those (armed) robberies...

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. UNC wins and has a great overall academic reputation and rating. Always seems to make the difference.

When your deans and academic professors are making no show and no work classes that is serious.

Coaches, tutors, and others cheating is one thing. When the leaders wrong, that lack of institutional control CANNOT be handled within, outside punishment and remedies are needed.

 

[kupuna133]

Yes and no. Both are bad and both schools should be severely punished for a lack of institutional control. Problem is pretty much all major schools do the same thing. Someone mentioned finding transcripts. Indirectly I know of someone who knew someone who discovered similar at Villanova about time they won their 1st NCAA hoops title. Another, if he didn't witness similar at Maryland saw Len Bias snort coke his 1st weekend on campus a few years before he passed (Maryland claimed he overdosed his 1st time trying).

I believe both UNC and Rutgers should both have received death penalty sentences-RU to a lesser extent. However doing so disrupts much and hurts us fans. Plus if all schools who did such were simarily penalized there wouldn't be many schools left.

A lesser extent death penalty? How does that work? Ash Saturday you can't be real. I have seen your posts in this thread and others. I cannot imagine going through life with such a distorted grasp on reality.

 

[AshSaturday]

Comparing apples to oranges. And what happened at RU last year likely wouldn't have been an issue at Carolina.
How about thinking before you press the post button.

NO, to say it best I'll quote another poster who commented during Rutgers violations years ago "Rutgers can't even cheat right ;>)". Carolina's efforts resulted in National championships-more than a few. Am I proud, no (especially after it made the front of Businessweek).

 

[Cheesesteak Vegas]

Guys, the chances of the NCAA ever issuing the death penalty again are slim, if not none.

 

[AshSaturday]

When your deans and academic professors are making no show and no work classes that is serious.

Coaches, tutors, and others cheating is one thing. When the leaders wrong, that lack of institutional control CANNOT be handled within, outside punishment and remedies are needed.

Terp-believe I had a friend who who had a friend who was working in an attic annex at Maryland who saw records of Lefty Drisell's players altered. Also saw Len Bias snort coke at a party durng his first weekend on campus.

I had pretty much a no show class at Cook ~1985 when a sick, morbidly obese, burnt out Prof didn't want to teach. Think he went 30 minutes class #1, and 10-15 minutes for a few others. Had to put together some sort of environmental impact statement? and that was the whole class.

 

[terrehawk]

As usual, the NCAA will handle this transgression from UNC by sending a strong and forceful message.

Middle Tennessee State will lose many scholarships and be placed on several years of probation. Hopefully the lesson will be learned from this.

 

[AshSaturday]

An early response from a Duke-centric source: the Duke Basketball Report. See below or online at: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com...a-middle-finger-to-the-ncaa-and-everyone-else

UNC’s Response To the NCAA Is A Middle Finger To the NCAA And Everyone Else
By JD King

@DBRTweetz on Aug 2, 2016, 3:19p

We’ll have more later but for now here’s a quick response to UNC’s response to the NCAA’s Amended Notice of Allegations. Basically it’s this:

Yeah, we did it, you don't have jurisdiction, so piss off.

That pretty much sums it up.

The best part is UNC’s suggestion that the NCAA’s statute of limitations had run out (this was in an earlier version of the article linked above).

Somehow UNC failed to point out that a) the university consistently dragged this out, preferring obfuscation to transparency, and b) that the delay when UNC self-reported two new violations in 2015 pushed the day of reckoning back even further.

So basically the reason why UNC is challenging the statute of limitations is that UNC chose to make things take this long. Talk about chutzpah.

UNC can now replace the old joke which defines chutzpah as a guy who kills his parents then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he’s an orphan.

This is even richer.

As UNC whistleblower Mary Willingham said, UNC has protected the brand at all costs. Men’s basketball got to compete for a national championship (thanks to Villanova, they didn’t get that bit of undeserved glory) and football hasn’t really been punished at all.

Women’s basketball is going to get clobbered but the brand has been protected.

Our joke here has been that UNC now is really, or may as well be, UNLV-Chapel Hill. Theres not much difference between what happened at Vegas under Jerry Tarkanian and what happened at UNC over nearly two decades, except that Tark was at least honest. He knew his kids weren’t all college-level students. He figured if he could teach them a little they were at least better off.

UNC hasn’t had even that level of honesty, much less humility.

The UNC we thought we knew, the one that claimed to be proud of student-athletes, that said it took education seriously, that wouldn’t compromise itself with ads in its arenas and coliseums - that UNC is dead.

UNC-Las Vegas is the new reality. Cheating is no big deal unless you get caught, and even then, it’s not really anyone’s business.

The proud state university, the public Ivy that everyone was so proud of - even Duke fans largely bought it and took a bit of pride in it - it was all a fraud.

It’s been in the grave for a while now. Today UNC just shoveled more dirt on it. That’s what it amounts to.

UNC calls out Dook (that could have been Rutgers/part of but Rutgers had the class to decline Tobacco money) for all their misgivings call the time. An article by the Charlotte Observer (in 1986) revealed that no school in the then ACC had made less than 10 exceptions for football/hoops players (Dook and UVA were at 10).

Also remember Jason Williams ready to sign with RU (would have been a program turn arounder) and then coincidentally signing with DOOK after Mom opened her mouth and Jasson's cousin received a cushy job offer at Dook.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

UNC calls out Dook (that could have been Rutgers/part of but Rutgers had the class to decline Tobacco money) for all their misgivings call the time. An article by the Charlotte Observer (in 1986) revealed that no school in the then ACC had made less than 10 exceptions for football/hoops players (Dook and UVA were at 10).

Also remember Jason Williams ready to sign with RU (would have been a program turn arounder) and then coincidentally signing with DOOK after Mom opened her mouth and Jasson's cousin received a cushy job offer at Dook.

Your attempt to deflect and distract is absurd, but it fits given your UNC ties. What happened at UNC is light year's away from what happened at RU under KF. Further, it has nothing to do with RU or Duke or any other school, other than those schools may have lost recruits and revenue as a result of the transgressions at UNC.

 

[ru66]

RU was NEVER charged by the NCAA for the minor stuff that went down last year and won't be charged--your argument is ridiculous--lumping us in the same cesspool as UNC is asinine.

 

[AshSaturday]

Well '66 lumping your intelligence vs. mine is also an insult as you can't read and interpret comments. I didn't lump both schools together. Sorry if I have higher disciplinary standards than yourself. If it were up to me UNC would receive a 3-5 year death pentalty-Rutgers 1 year. The NCAA monitors this board,however, and realizes an hour or two a day (and 12 games this year with Flood's old players) with old farts such as yourself is punishment enough...Sorry but in my book grade influencing, fake classes, assault, burglary (and the armed robbery via bicycle for $25) were all serious.

I need money for my FB tix, please e-mail me and tell me where you live so that I can rob and assault you (since you think such is a minor offense). Since I like my women young (see soccer thread) I promise not to plunder the wife...

 

[AshSaturday]

By the way '66 some of these "minor" infractions at RU were occurring with the UNC football team in the years I attended UNC. Ity was either already bad (as it may well be at RU) or things got worse. That's why you don't slap Rutgers, UNC or anyone on the wrist.

 

[ru66]

yeah --you're a genius-- smart comments they really hurt--you're still a dumb a$$hole-- you may like them young but I know you spend most time f'ing yourself

 

[koleszar]

This is a landmark case, and frankly, if the NCAA does not impose stiff penalties, the floodgate of cheating at other football factories will open. Fake classes for athletes will become commonplace.

-Scarlet Jerry

I totally agree. If UNC is allowed to have fake classes for athletes and get away with it, than what's to prevent other schools from following suit. You would simply have to make those classes available to all students. If the NCAA got involved, you could simply state this is an academic matter, not athletic as all students had access to those classes. This could open up a huge can of worms for the NCAA if they don't act.

 

[JoeRU0304]

I definitely think AshSaturday is trolling but still can't help but laugh in him trying to draw almost equivalent comparisons between 2015 RU and 20+ years of outright fraud at UNC. It's like saying the guy who got pulled over doing 29 in a 25 is the same as Bernie Madoff.


Joe P.