OT: WWII September 1, 1939, 85 Years Ago Today - The Invasion of Poland
- Thread starter MadRU
- Start date
Unfortunately most of the generation in Europe and US who lived through that horror are gone. Hopefully, some of the lessons are not forgotten. There are some concerning parallels evident today. I’ve always been more interested in the root causes of the outbreak of WW1 and WW2 and find the era from the late 19th century to 1939 very interesting. When I was in my 20s, I read William Shire’s “Rise and Fall of The Third Reich”. With the rise of more extreme Nationalist Populist movements in Europe and US recently, it certainly raises concern.
I totally agree on the need to understand the late 19th century through 1939 to understand the root causes of WWII!
1914 Barbara Tuchman 'The Guns of August" Goes into detail on the multi decade build up.
And it is also my grandma's birthday. She was born in 1900.
Victor Davis Hanson said there would not have been a WWII if US, UK and France didn't let their militaries decay. Hitler found that very inviting. VDH said Hitler would never have started a war if he knew US could go from 2000 planes in 1939 to 300,000 by war's end (25 B-25s a day at Willow Run - 1 an hour).
He has also said a lesson from history is that bad things often happen because people think they cant.
Fair to say the US is much much worse off than 1939
The US is worse off than in 1939? Seriously?
Sorry , that makes no sense relative to the US. The US was essentially an isolationist country protected by a large ocean prior to WW1. After our late involvement in that war, we went back to being an isolationist country. We never had a large standing defense system in line with the principals that the country was founded upon ( did not want a standing army based on previous Monarchical countries using it against their own populations). The US never had a large defense relative to the European world powers prior to WW2. That all changed after WW2. As for Hitler, he was an irrational psychopath. By insisting on a two front war by attacking Russia , he sealed Germany’s demise. Luckily for the democracies, his persecution of ethnic, religious minorities during the 1930s, resulted in an exodus of some of the best scientists to the west. Some of those scientists helped the US develop the atomic bomb before the Nazis. Today, the US is in a much stronger economic and military standing relative to the Authoritarian regimes (Russia, China).
My father would have been 91 today.
France and the UK much more than the US. The entry of German troops to the Rhineland in 1936 should have tipped them off and Chamberlain's surrender of the Sudetenland in '38 confirmed it. But France hid behind the Maginot line and the UK was run by Chamberlain. Yes, the US had an isolationist tradition but by '38 they should have seen the writing on the wall. 1940 was too late.
France and England had suffered incredible losses of young men during WW1 , and were thus very reluctant to get into a repeat with Germany.
Luckily, Germany was stupid enough to attack the Soviet Union and Japan was stupid enough to attack Pearl Harbor.
I think you need to back all the way to the Napoleonic era.
France was widely considered to have the strongest army in 1939. They just weren’t ready for blitzkrieg.
How in the world is the USA possibly worse off now than in 1939? We have far and away the world’s most powerful military.
I’m reading a great book called The Splendid and the Vile by Erik Larson. All about Churchill in the very beginning of WW2. They talk about British battles in Iraq, and truthfully I had no clue there was fighting in Iraq during WWII.
Churchill’s “The Second World War” is series of six books and goes into great detail from the years before the war through the war and aftermath.
People would be shocked at just how broken US military is
US out of artillery ammo - they shipped it to Ukraine - cant catch-up even in 5 years.
Many Navy ships out of commission for repairs, slow construction projects, poor training etc. Navy ships crash into each other despite detection hours in advance. Ships vulnerable to new weapons from China/Russia/NK - nuke tipped torpedo drones with celestial targeting. Its never been easier to sink a carrier (and they are currently missing from S China Sea - Xi appreciated the help). Hypersonic missiles cant be stopped
Then poor leadership chased away many of the better service people and new people dont want to join. Radical social de-engineering is main focus now. Afghanistan withdrawl was epic disaster that has enemies grinning. Allies weren't even notified - billions in arms went to enemies and Taliban wants to invade Israel if it gets permission from Iran.
US couldn't make PPE in pandemic and its industrial capacity is shadow compared to WWII days. To top it all off US doesn't have functional leadership due to long known cognitive issues belatedly acknowledged.
“Unclassified public wargames suggest that, in a conflict with China, the United States would largely exhaust its munitions inventories in as few as three to four weeks, with some important munitions (e.g., anti-ship missiles) lasting only a few days. Once expended, replacing these munitions would take years,” the report states.
The US might lose a war with China, congressional commission says
Insufficient industry, readiness, innovation, and funding hamper military’s ability to prevail in conflict, key experts find.
www.defenseone.com
America isn’t ready for another war — because it doesn’t have the troops
In an era of increasing conflict, from Gaza to Ukraine, America isn’t ready for another war. We don’t have enough Army soldiers or Navy sailors.
www.vox.com
People would be shocked at just how broken US military is
US out of artillery ammo - they shipped it to Ukraine - cant catch-up even in 5 years.
Many Navy ships out of commission for repairs, slow construction projects, poor training etc. Navy ships crash into each other despite detection hours in advance. Ships vulnerable to new weapons from China/Russia/NK - nuke tipped torpedo drones with celestial targeting. Its never been easier to sink a carrier (and they are currently missing from S China Sea - Xi appreciated the help). Hypersonic missiles cant be stopped
Then poor leadership chased away many of the better service people and new people dont want to join. Radical social de-engineering is main focus now. Afghanistan withdrawl was epic disaster that has enemies grinning. Allies weren't even notified - billions in arms went to enemies and Taliban wants to invade Israel if it gets permission from Iran.
US couldn't make PPE in pandemic and its industrial capacity is shadow compared to WWII days. To top it all off US doesn't have functional leadership due to long known cognitive issues belatedly acknowledged.
“Unclassified public wargames suggest that, in a conflict with China, the United States would largely exhaust its munitions inventories in as few as three to four weeks, with some important munitions (e.g., anti-ship missiles) lasting only a few days. Once expended, replacing these munitions would take years,” the report states.
The US might lose a war with China, congressional commission says
Insufficient industry, readiness, innovation, and funding hamper military’s ability to prevail in conflict, key experts find.
America isn’t ready for another war — because it doesn’t have the troops
In an era of increasing conflict, from Gaza to Ukraine, America isn’t ready for another war. We don’t have enough Army soldiers or Navy sailors.
In 1939 the US Army had 180,000 troops, less than Portugal. That included what is now the air force, which had no fighter that could equal the ME-109, the FW-190 or the Japanese Zero. For that matter the Spitfire as well. Today's planes are the best in the world. The tanks were obsolescent, now top of the line. I don't have munitions data, but I doubt a substantial supply existed. This not to say that no problems exist with today's military, but comparatively speaking they are in much better shape
ummm... what? The nationalist movement here says stop it with all the foreign wars.
If anything the bigger fear for world war is this internationalist movement that is aiming to erase borders and community identities in favor of totalitarian control by the internationalist set.
From the national oil reserves to ammunition reserves and parts and maintenance and recruiting/retention issues and experience outflow.. I think you'd be surprised just how bad off we are. How quickly we can replace with drones and drone operators from a company like Anduril.. that is the real issue.. and hypersonic missiles and such... and deciding just what we need military power for.. its proper use.
Had England not expanded and Colonized Singapore, Hong Kong, Burma, India and and Indochina…there would have been no Bridge over the river Kwai.
Churchill had to know spending all his waking hours in his war rooms trying to figure out a way to hold off Hitler, praying we’d enter the war.
He was going to have to fight the Japanese on a whole different front😊
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Read the Tuchman book on WWI losses, even early on. But you don't avoid a repeat by being unprepared.
I was just in London and visited the war rooms, I’m consuming everything I can about Churchill.
I’m guessing if someone asked him in 1939 at the height of the Battle of Britain about Japan, he would have rolled his eyes and said “please one dictator at a time”
There was no national oil reserve in 1939. As I said earlier, there can be issues with today's military, but outside of the navy there was for all intents and purposes NO military in 1939. Want proof? Despite a late start in '40 and '41 the US was still woefully under prepared for '41.
I’m not going to turn this into a domestic political debate about the rise of Nationalism here because that will end predictably. There is a big difference between sending American troops somewhere and fully supporting NATO and allies in Europe. Regarding the immigration issue, there is nothing new here, historically there has always been rising anxiety , fear, paranoia, nativism during migration surges. Whether it was the mid 19th century, the late 19th - early 20th century or the last 20 years. Rising Nationalism in the late 19th century led directly to the outbreak of WW1 and WW2 in Europe. The US will not be able to avoid involvement if something similar happens today.
For all of you that want to talk about the importance of understanding history and the events leading to WWII - don't forget that in the years following, for all of the horrors and injustice they endured, the allies abandoned and turned their backs on Poland to appease the USSR:
Speaking as one who traces his roots back to Poland (50%... mother's side of the family), I'm wondering what exactly anyone thought the allies could have done in that situation to help Poland ?
If you want to speak about the contributions of the Polish flyers in the Battle of Britain, fine. Appeasing the Soviet Union in 1945 it's a more complicated story than simply appeasement. In 1939 the UK and France declared war on Germany, but didn't have the forces to affect the outcome. In 1945 the Soviets invaded again on their way to Berlin. Like much of Eastern Europe they were dominated by the USSR. But outside of going to WWII.02 there was little they could do.
That museum that shows teh basement they used.. was it below the Brish museum? Wherever it was.. phenomenal.
And that's why certain political elements call whats is happening "nationalism".. because it has those old connotations instead of what it is today.. patriotism.
INTERNATIONALISM and OPEN BORDERS is the real threat to any idea of what people think of as their rights and their traditions as an American.
Not sure I understand this.
UK and France went to war to defend Poland and it ended up in a world war costing millions of lives. After the war, no country,.. no DEMOCRATIC nation not even the USA, had the stomach for more war. The USSR and Communist China and Communists in Korea had no such limitations.
Should we have? That's a hard call. I think, maybe, yes.. that was the chance to end communism perhaps forever... but we had helped arm the USSR to defeat Germany... could we have fought them and finished off Japan and successfully occupied Germany and Japan while fighting the USSR?
Dunno.
Ww2 actually began the day the Versailles treaty ended world war 1.
