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Pa.'s system of public higher education is in trouble

I think NJ has more young people than PA to fill the spots we have. Their rural areas are in bad shape.
 
NJ because it doesn’t have an abundance of public universities and colleges I believe have kept their enrollment steady or slightly increasing. I see William Paterson and Montclair State building more dorms on campus. With out of state tuition in other states and private schools continuing to increase, more and more NJ students will see the bargain of the NJ colleges.

The payout for the Jerry Sandusky child abuse didn’t help Penn State.
 
rutgersdave said:
NJ because it doesn’t have an abundance of public universities and colleges I believe have kept their enrollment steady or slightly increasing. I see William Paterson and Montclair State building more dorms on campus. With out of state tuition in other states and private schools continuing to increase, more and more NJ students will see the bargain of the NJ colleges.

The payout for the Jerry Sandusky child abuse didn’t help Penn State.
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Actually, Penn State's main campus has increased enrollment over the last few years. It's everything else that's shrinking.
 
camdenlawprof said:
Actually, Penn State's main campus has increased enrollment over the last few years. It's everything else that's shrinking.
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They need to close at least 5-6 campuses and they can’t worry about the affect on the local economy.

With international students attendance dropping in addition, many schools will be in trouble adjusting.
 
rutgersdave said:
They need to close at least 5-6 campuses and they can’t worry about the affect on the local economy.

With international students attendance dropping in addition, many schools will be in trouble adjusting.
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Yes, but it has nothing to do with Sandusky. If it did, Happy Valley's enrollment would be shrinking. Instead, the campus has been able to attract OOS students and actually increased enrollment.
 
How many kids are graduating each year from PA high schools?

My guess is less than it was 5 or 10 years ago

I knew people from NJ that went to places like West Chester and Kutztown but I don't know that it's enough to keep the smaller colleges afloat.

I would think Pitt and Temple are OK and their strong grad programs will keep them going

But some of these rural colleges there may not be enough kids to fill them.

In NJ it's a different dynamic. We never had enough spots for a good number of HS grads to stay here anyway. And we don't have any part of the state really sinking into the economic abyss.
 
camdenlawprof said:
Yes, but it has nothing to do with Sandusky. If it did, Happy Valley's enrollment would be shrinking. Instead, the campus has been able to attract OOS students and actually increased enrollment.
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The payment for Sandusky took funds from the Penn State system which may have increased tuition for all Penn State locations.

Had to bring up Sandusky.
 
NotInRHouse said:
How many kids are graduating each year from PA high schools?

My guess is less than it was 5 or 10 years ago
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In Pennsylvania, 119,765 students graduated high school in 2018. In 2012, there were 123,599. That's a 3.1% decline in 6 years.

For comparison, NJ had 96,955 graduates in 2018 and 93,818 in 2012. That's a 3.3% increase.

Certainly the decline in HS grads in PA doesn't help the situation. But it doesn't alone explain the 14% drop in college enrollment described in the article.
 
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Not like I have been running around doing interviews, but I think that a good amount of NJ kids that in the past went to Pennsylvania state colleges like Kutztown, East Stroudsburg, and a bunch more are now going to Rowan. Stockton continues to grow as well. In addition to Pomona, they just opened a second campus right by the ocean in Atlantic City. The dorms looked beautiful.
 
HeavenUniv. said:
Not like I have been running around doing interviews, but I think that a good amount of NJ kids that in the past went to Pennsylvania state colleges like Kutztown, East Stroudsburg, and a bunch more are now going to Rowan. Stockton continues to grow as well. In addition to Pomona, they just opened a second campus right by the ocean in Atlantic City. The dorms looked beautiful.
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Parents are becoming more aware of cost and student loans and just find in state public schools in NJ more attractive. I believe I saw the Pennsylvania schools offering in state tuition for out of state student that reside within a couple miles from campus.
 
rutgersdave said:
Parents are becoming more aware of cost and student loans and just find in state public schools in NJ more attractive. I believe I saw the Pennsylvania schools offering in state tuition for out of state student that reside within a couple miles from campus.
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I feel like years ago the costs were comparable but today I see OOS for example Kutztown is 22k and in state Stockton is 13k. At that point I see WVU is also 22k for OOS. But I guess some kids want a smaller school.
 
Upstream said:
In Pennsylvania, 119,765 students graduated high school in 2018. In 2012, there were 123,599. That's a 3.1% decline in 6 years.

For comparison, NJ had 96,955 graduates in 2018 and 93,818 in 2012. That's a 3.3% increase.

Certainly the decline in HS grads in PA doesn't help the situation. But it doesn't alone explain the 14% drop in college enrollment described in the article.
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Only other thing I could think of is more kids not going to college. Maybe in rural PA they are fracking, mining, or something else. But I think we'd need to look at other states information.
 
It's the same thing I've said in a couple other threads. It's a buyer's market for kids in the 3.2 GPA/1150 SAT range. They really can't get into the Top 100 or so colleges, so all the rest are fighting for them. Given a choice between paying $25,000 for Stockton, Kutztown, or UMaine, you have to ask yourself if staying close to home is really that important. These other flagship State Us will gladly give in-state rates to a kid who will boost their average student profile.

If you think the state schools are having a tough time, imagine what the Drews & the Riders of the world are facing.
 
Stockton just got an $8 million dollar donation, largest in school history. Money going to both campuses.
 
RUJohnny99 said:
It's the same thing I've said in a couple other threads. It's a buyer's market for kids in the 3.2 GPA/1150 SAT range. They really can't get into the Top 100 or so colleges, so all the rest are fighting for them. Given a choice between paying $25,000 for Stockton, Kutztown, or UMaine, you have to ask yourself if staying close to home is really that important. These other flagship State Us will gladly give in-state rates to a kid who will boost their average student profile.

If you think the state schools are having a tough time, imagine what the Drews & the Riders of the world are facing.
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Based on the numbers I saw Stockton would be less than Kutztown by like 10k all in if you're in NJ. Not peanuts but if the family has money I guess it's no matter.

I would think, just me, that it would make more sense to go to a bigger state school in that price range...but I guess some kids don't want that. I see for example FSU is 21k OOS which is actually less than Kutztown but 550 is to the lower point of their range. ASU is 22k and I think they're basically auto admit. But maybe parents are worried about too much fun at those places.
 
Upstream said:
Certainly the decline in HS grads
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US News
Colleges Set to Fight for Fewer Students
A declining birthrate means the college-going population could decline by more than 15 percent.
This is a national demographic trend but not surprising some States worse off than others. And as others have pointed out as a State with a historic under-capacity of in-state college seats for the well prepared students our primary/secondary education system produces makes even more sense NJ will be less impacted.
 
srru86 said:
US News
Colleges Set to Fight for Fewer Students
A declining birthrate means the college-going population could decline by more than 15 percent.
This is a national demographic trend but not surprising some States worse off than others. And as others have pointed out as a State with a historic under-capacity of in-state college seats for the well prepared students our primary/secondary education system produces makes even more sense NJ will be less impacted.
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Damn, GenXers like me are gonna break the education pyramid scheme.

Makes sense that people with young children in the 2001-08 timeframe would migrate to better opportunities when local industries evaporated. I bet in some of those towns the state college is probably the last decent job in the area.
 
Expect to hear more students and parents talking about the University of Louisville. They are hitting the college fairs hard in New Jersey and are emphasizing cost. They are offering tons of money to New Jersey kids with good to very good grades and SATs. My youngest nephew is only a sophomore in high school, but he went to a college fair in Monmouth County and UL was there. On the front of the brochure, in very large letters, is Affordability. Inside, specific price discounts for NJ families mentioned.
 
rutgersdave said:
They need to close at least 5-6 campuses and they can’t worry about the affect on the local economy.

With international students attendance dropping in addition, many schools will be in trouble adjusting.
Click to expand...
Wonder if they could just merge them into regional systems—Univ of Northern Pennsylvania, Univ of Western Pennsylvania, Southern Pennsy, Central Pennsylvania, and Eastern Pennsylvania. Have three, four, or five current schools in each region transition into these new names. Eliminate multiple presidents,vice presidents, deans, share resources , etc. Maybe stress concentrations at specific schools-ex Arts at one, Education at another, Business at another,etc.
 
RUJohnny99 said:
It's the same thing I've said in a couple other threads. It's a buyer's market for kids in the 3.2 GPA/1150 SAT range. They really can't get into the Top 100 or so colleges, so all the rest are fighting for them. Given a choice between paying $25,000 for Stockton, Kutztown, or UMaine, you have to ask yourself if staying close to home is really that important. These other flagship State Us will gladly give in-state rates to a kid who will boost their average student profile.

If you think the state schools are having a tough time, imagine what the Drews & the Riders of the world are facing.
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I know Rider in particular is in trouble. Think about it...it costs what...$35K a year in state and really isn't special academically. Not sure what the selling point is there.
 
HeavenUniv. said:
Expect to hear more students and parents talking about the University of Louisville. They are hitting the college fairs hard in New Jersey and are emphasizing cost. They are offering tons of money to New Jersey kids with good to very good grades and SATs. My youngest nephew is only a sophomore in high school, but he went to a college fair in Monmouth County and UL was there. On the front of the brochure, in very large letters, is Affordability. Inside, specific price discounts for NJ families mentioned.
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I have been to Louisville, and I think many Jersey kids would find it a culture shock. Kentucky stuck with the Union in the civil war, but the culture is *very* southern -- not modern south the way places like Atlanta, but very traditional south.
 
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camdenlawprof said:
I have been to Louisville, and I think many Jersey kids would find it a culture shock. Kentucky stuck with the Union in the civil war, but the culture is *very* southern -- not modern south the way places like Atlanta, but very traditional south.
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Sure is and I agree it would shock some but not all. Culture doesn't always deter these kids looking for a change of scenery. Some schools such as Alabama and South Carolina and Clemson have been successful getting NJ kids to head down south by throwing out scholarship money.
 
Louisville OOS tuition is 27k OOS.

Seems like FL and AZ schools would be better value
 
RUnTeX said:
Sure is and I agree it would shock some but not all. Culture doesn't always deter these kids looking for a change of scenery. Some schools such as Alabama and South Carolina and Clemson have been successful getting NJ kids to head down south by throwing out scholarship money.
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I understand that, but I think the campuses and locales you cite are much nicer than a fairly urban campus. If an urban campus is desirable, why not just go to New Brunswick/Piscataway?
 
camdenlawprof said:
I understand that, but I think the campuses and locales you cite are much nicer than a fairly urban campus. If an urban campus is desirable, why not just go to New Brunswick/Piscataway?
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I didn't realize you were alluding to campus aesthetics/fabric as part of culture though I suppose that could be a factor.

As diverse as Rutgers' mutiple campuses are, only College Avenue and the Douglass portion of Cook/Douglass are fairly urban in nature.

South Carolina's campus is fairly urban too, being located in downtown Columbia, SC. The football stadium is technically not even on campus because there's no room for it where the academic and social campus core is situated. Clemson is fairly rural in overall surroundings beyond the campus. Not sure where Tuscaloosa sits on the spectrum.

I didn't take campus environment specifically into consideration as i was just thinking of a few schools that I've read about who have not been shy in trying to recruit northeastern students to the deep south despite the potential culture shock.
 
RUJohnny99 said:
I bet in some of those towns the state college is probably the last decent job in the area.
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You'd win that bet.
As an example; it is no coincidence that the fast growing and most vibrant city in Ohio is Columbus. They have zoomed past places like Cleveland and Cincinnati in population and economic activity.
The U is part of it. But also all the firms attracted by the talent drawn in and amenities available because of the campus.
 
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srru86 said:
You'd win that bet.
As an example; it is no coincidence that the fast growing and most vibrant city in Ohio is Columbus. They have zoomed past places like Cleveland and Cincinnati in population and economic activity.
The U is part of it. But also all the firms attracted by the talent drawn in and amenities available because of the campus.
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It also doesn't hurt that Columbus is the state capitol.
 
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Columbus is a decent enough city.

The college town-state capitol combo definitely helped Austin grow a ton as well.
 
Still, I would agree with @srru86 that having a university helps Columbus and Austin. As you know, Austin in particular is a haven for young people. Columbus is, IMHO, more than a "decent enough city." I can imagine someone from NJ wanting to go to U.Texas on academic merit, but it's harder to see the case with OSU.
 
camdenlawprof said:
Still, I would agree with @srru86 that having a university helps Columbus and Austin. As you know, Austin in particular is a haven for young people. Columbus is, IMHO, more than a "decent enough city." I can imagine someone from NJ wanting to go to U.Texas on academic merit, but it's harder to see the case with OSU.
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I remember reading some article posted by someone I know from HS that lives in Columbus (not a OSU alum) that everyone is trying to move there. They definitely have had some growth but not on the Austin level. I think UT and OSU are similarly ranked in USNWR. UT has a very highly ranked law school where I would think most people who want to work in TX go. OSU is not shabby but not as highly ranked as UT for law.

To me, Austin is way too hot in the summer. Columbus I think I would get bored.
 
Austin is a hip town; Columbus not so much. The University of Texas has a source of oil revenue guaranteed by the state Constitution, which means the University is very prosperous. There are other good law schools in Texas, but U.Texas's is by far the best. OSU's law school is OK, and probably the best in the state, but by a thinner margin. I almost decided to teach at OSU's law school rather than Rutgers, but OSU screwed up the timing of their offer. My life would have been considerably different if I had taught there instead.
 
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camdenlawprof said:
Austin is a hip town; Columbus not so much. The University of Texas has a source of oil revenue guaranteed by the state Constitution, which means the University is very prosperous. There are other good law schools in Texas, but U.Texas's is by far the best. OSU's law school is OK, and probably the best in the state, but by a thinner margin. I almost decided to teach at OSU's law school rather than Rutgers, but OSU screwed up the timing of their offer. My life would have been considerably different if I had taught there instead.
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Haha. If you like winning all the time it may have been easier there, unless you were at RU in the late 70s.
 
RUnTeX said:
I didn't realize you were alluding to campus aesthetics/fabric as part of culture though I suppose that could be a factor.

As diverse as Rutgers' mutiple campuses are, only College Avenue and the Douglass portion of Cook/Douglass are fairly urban in nature.

South Carolina's campus is fairly urban too, being located in downtown Columbia, SC. The football stadium is technically not even on campus because there's no room for it where the academic and social campus core is situated. Clemson is fairly rural in overall surroundings beyond the campus. Not sure where Tuscaloosa sits on the spectrum.

I didn't take campus environment specifically into consideration as i was just thinking of a few schools that I've read about who have not been shy in trying to recruit northeastern students to the deep south despite the potential culture shock.
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I visited UofSC in October and was shocked at how non-urban Columbia was. The town itself was closer in feel to Freehold or Somerville than Trenton or New Brunswick.
 
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