Penn State

[lawmatt78]

Academics (US News - undergraduate) - PSU - 37; RU - 69

Athletics (Director's Cup) - PSU - 5; Rutgers -120

3 questions:

Is it fair to say they are kicking our ass?

If so...how do we fix this?

As a student (or student-athlete)...what are the compelling reasons to pick Rutgers over PSU?

 

[NotInRHouse]

We all know the USNWR are BS and that State Penn aggressively gamed for obvious reasons. Does anyone outside of Central PA believe that it's better than Wisconsin or GT, nevermind RU? What other major schools essentially have a community college farm system like that...literally anyone who is a PA resident can get a degree from there.

RU needs to game the system, take more OOS...which I think we are doing.

As to your last question...I don't normally say this to you, but surely you jest. The atmosphere there is suffocating, it's in the middle of nowhere.

My last point is so obvious that I won't even make it. But anyone with an ounce of ethics would raise questions about someone with a degree from there on an interview and I'm confident a lot of alumni would have repulsive answers.

I welcome anyone and everyone from NJ who believes otherwise to please go there, and please never return.

The comparison is best made with, say, Maryland...who is the same boat as us in most ways because they are not a morally depraved institution where people in a rural area have nothing else to bank on.

The fact that people from NJ take interest in going there is much more of (another) poor reflection on our state.

 

[derleider]

Step 1. GO back in time and create a system that essentially pre-rigs itself for US News rankings despite their main campus having exactly the same students (same SAT, same GPA, etc) as RU-NB. No one believes that PSU is a top 40 school. Seriously. The fact that they can reject a huge number of applicants (gives them a huge boost in selectivity) and then get the best of them back gives (gives them a huge boost in the value added category - HUGE).

NIRH I think is being a little unfair. The PSU system is actually a great one in my mind and I dont think they created it decades ago to game a ranking system which hadnt even been invented yet. IT makes plenty of sense - slap the PSU label on a bunch of schools, promise the best from those schools that they can get into the real PSU. creates a large university community, allows for a way for underperforming high school students to access a good education, spreads te schools name throughout the state.

2. Go back in time, actually care about athletics before 2000 and hire Joe Paterno.

How about this compelling reason - its half the price and the degree is just as valuable.

How do we fix it. Depends on what you mean by fix it. If you mean make RU a better school in the eyes of US News, there are a dozen different things we could do to game the rankings - and we wouldnt even have to attract better students, faculty, or even spend alot of money - in fact many of them would make things worse for students. If you mean make RU a better school - we are in the process of doing it and have been for decades.

This post was edited on 6/30 2:52 PM by derleider

 

[NotInRHouse]

Hire a criminal!?!

When I googled SAT scores when someone here said it was tougher to get in there...I think RU's were actually HIGHER.

Numbers don't lie. Their student quality isn't a top 40. RU is much better.

USNWR is increasingly more senseless.

I hate their system actually. Plenty of schools have more apps, not because they are kinda a community college. We just need to get the message out better.

And their atmosphere is suffocating. It's not meant for most people IMO (and why plenty of people in PA go to Pitt or OOS).

 

[lawmatt78]

So they aren't top 40 because their departments/school rankings aren't consistent w/ a top 40 school?

This is one reason Michigan should perhaps be ranked higher. The departments and schools rankings are ridiculously high - over 100 programs/departments in top 10.

I'm not sure the atmosphere is as much of a turn-off as NIRH implies. Is it really that from most other big schools in college towns?

Also, we should post the SATs - NB v. State College - instead of speculation. If I weren't busier right now, I'd look them up and post.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Per google which isn't letting me copy, RU is 575/620 and State Penn is 580/615- so identical.

And yes- RU has a ton of highly ranked departments, certainly more so than schools ranked higher than us. What are Clemson and UConn known for besides cheating?

And yes- it's incredibly suffocating- I have been to other college towns, you don't see the coach's face in the store window.

Put it like this- compare what happened when Tressel was fired to Paterno- or when Michigan and Indiana had basketball scandals years ago.

There is very minimal tolerance for independent thought out there.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by lawmatt78:
So they aren't top 40 because their departments/school rankings aren't consistent w/ a top 40 school?

This is one reason Michigan should perhaps be ranked higher. The departments and schools rankings are ridiculously high - over 100 programs/departments in top 10.

I'm not sure the atmosphere is as much of a turn-off as NIRH implies. Is it really that from most other big schools in college towns?

Also, we should post the SATs - NB v. State College - instead of speculation. If I weren't busier right now, I'd look them up and post.

25/75 percentile

PSU
SAT Critical Reading: 520 / 620SAT Math: 550 / 660
Rutgers
SAT Critical Reading: 500 / 620SAT Math: 540 / 670
Here are the cumulative percentages for each 100 SAT points.

As you can see RU is better at math, and similar at reading.

Rutgers has 41% of its incoming freshman in the top 10% of their class vs only 35% for PSU

So yeah - as far as the actual consumers of a college education are concerned, whatever advantages PSU has, are not being translated into drawing better students. Like I said - their setup gives them a big bump in the US News value added.

As for NIRH - PSU probably has the highest gown to town population ratio in the Big Ten - only Purdue would challenge it - and its only an hour from Indianapolis - PSU is three or so hours from any major city.



This post was edited on 7/1 9:12 AM by derleider

 

[TonyLieske]

Originally posted by derleider:

How about this compelling reason - its half the price and the degree is just as valuable.

This is the one that always gets me. Rationally speaking I would almost always suggest that a good students first choice in university should be Ivy League, but second choice should be the State's flagship university. And the 3rd or 4th choice should likely be the state's second tier university.

Unless you have some oddball major you are going to get essentially the same education at any flagship (usually land grant and AAU) state university. Paying the extra money to go to a marginally more prestigious private school or an OOS public university is just crazy to me...although it seems pretty damn popular.

Don't get me wrong, I went through the same thing as a kid so I can sympathize. I was no where near Ivy League quality but the school I really wanted to go to was American University. I was in love with the campus. But when it came down to deciding where to go I simply couldn't justify spending the crazy amount on tuition + room and board at that school (and since student loans were paying 90% of my expenses, I had to be rational) and "settled" for Rutgers. Looking back it was absolutely the right decision.

Speaking of money, I saw this posted on a Temple board:

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2014/07/01/Pitt-Penn-State-remain-highest-in-tuition-nationally-for-public-universities/stories/201406300178

As bad as NJ is, PA is even worse when it comes to attending in state universities. I was also kind of surprised that NJIT and TCNJ both got ranked among the most expensive and yet Rutgers did not.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by TonyLieske:

Originally posted by derleider:

How about this compelling reason - its half the price and the degree is just as valuable.

This is the one that always gets me. Rationally speaking I would almost always suggest that a good students first choice in university should be Ivy League, but second choice should be the State's flagship university. And the 3rd or 4th choice should likely be the state's second tier university.

Unless you have some oddball major you are going to get essentially the same education at any flagship (usually land grant and AAU) state university. Paying the extra money to go to a marginally more prestigious private school or an OOS public university is just crazy to me...although it seems pretty damn popular.

Don't get me wrong, I went through the same thing as a kid so I can sympathize. I was no where near Ivy League quality but the school I really wanted to go to was American University. I was in love with the campus. But when it came down to deciding where to go I simply couldn't justify spending the crazy amount on tuition + room and board at that school (and since student loans were paying 90% of my expenses, I had to be rational) and "settled" for Rutgers. Looking back it was absolutely the right decision.

Speaking of money, I saw this posted on a Temple board:

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2014/07/01/Pitt-Penn-State-remain-highest-in-tuition-nationally-for-public-universities/stories/201406300178

As bad as NJ is, PA is even worse when it comes to attending in state universities. I was also kind of surprised that NJIT and TCNJ both got ranked among the most expensive and yet Rutgers did not.

Ironically - I in fact did that - although I had an oddball major - meteorology - which is (or was - Maryland has recently added an undergraduate degree) offered only at Millersville, PSU, and Rutgers in the general mid-Atlantic area.

But generally I agree - its actually hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that private schools even exist beyond religiously oriented school, let alone exist in such abundance and at such great expense vs comparable public schools.

But in the end American college choice is largely about the lifestyle, not the actual return on the financial investment. And for some reason parents buy into that whole thing. Can you imagine if your kid said - I'm going to borrow $200,000 to start a business that I could actually start for $50,000 given the return on investment. Or I'm going borrow money to buy a Porsche instead of a Honda because you know, I like how it feels.

 

[bob-loblaw]

Part of me thinks that often the problem is that we often look through life in scarlet collared glasses...

There's a major problem perception wise with rutgers that has remained present in the decade plus since I first went there. Whether it's being a student and getting the RU screw, or merely the perception that has come on from the last 18 mos of error after error - it has made me stop and ask; are we really as good as I (and this board)!have lead ourselves to believe?

This has been the darkest time for this school, when it should be a celebratory period. The big 10/cic, umdnj merger and the CAC redevelopment should be ushering in grand times at the school and in its perception across the state. The reality is that it's still viewed in a negative light by prospective students (recruits) and current students.

I don't think the bottom has completely fallen out yet and I don't see us making a big bump in rankings or athletic prowess for several years. I do think that when the dust settles p, mergers are smoothed out and cic $ flows in, the trajectory is going to rocket upwards, but I just can't see that happening for another four or five years.

 

[derleider]

Well the data above shows that we are at least as good as Penn State at attracting students, so whatever flaws we think we have, the students of NJ generally don't agree. And thats with RU expanding by nearly a third in the past decade. If we were still at 24,000 undergrads instead of 30,000 we would be well ahead of PSU in student body.

reality is that US News is basically based on one thing - how much money are you spending relative to your neighbors. RU just doesn't have the money to spend. It doesn't have a compliant sate. It doesn't have a rich donor base. It doesn't have a historic endowment to draw on.

So outside of some shift in calculations (like the one that vaulted PSU up from around 50 to inside the top 40) don't expect a huge shift. There will be some movement in the margins. Maybe over the long term the school pride fostered by the Big Ten will lead to increased investment from alumni and the state. But thats a decades long project.

Either way - we are doing what we can. Building new buildings to enhance our campuses, including the long neglected College Ave and Livingston campuses. Expanding research facilities massively and continuously. Raising money to lure more and better professors. At some point we bump up against the demographic reality of being a Northeastern State U in a rich state.

On issue is that students are obviously shortsighted - they have no sense of history. Whatever complains they have - the campus is undeniably better than ti was five years ago. The school is better. The sports are better. The food choices, and entertainment options are better. Transportation is better. The school is more logically designed than a decade ago. The opportunities to get into research are better. Part of it is, in fact I think classic Jersey negativity.

Outside of state funding, everything is better than it was five years or ten years ago. Its just that other places are getting better even faster.
This post was edited on 7/1 11:06 AM by derleider

 

[NotInRHouse]

Perhaps the geography contributes to it- but PA is overall the most conservative Northeast state and among the least diverse especially in comparison to NJ which I think has something to do with it.

RU's entire problem is messaging. RU allows these moronic SL narratives. How many NJ residents know about the numbers Der posted? Why not take out a full page ad in all the NJ newspapers?

I agree about going OOS. I really wanted to go to NYU (I got into American btw, when I applied it was considered easier than RU!) but in retrospect RU was 100% the right call and NYU would have been a waste of money.

As a general proposition, I do not understand how NJ parents justify OOS unless it's Ivy League, Stanford, Duke, maybe Michigan and UVA, but certainly no one ranked lower than that, over Rutgers. Anyone who thinks you stand a better chance landing a job or grad school placement with a degree from State Penn over RU is clueless. Not to mention the inherent suspiscion you will get in some quarters.

OTOH, I can see if your kid doesn't get into RU and TCNJ- the other NJ schools are pretty poorly regarded- and your kid gets into an easier OOS state school like a SUNY or WVU or something- that costs just as much or less. That I get.

 

[BoroKnight]

Data? All well and good. But consider this:

Because a former manager had a thing for Penn State grads, he hired a lot of them. (This would cover a period from 1998 to about 2005 or so.) And every single one of them, without exception, was incredibly proud he or she went to Penn State. A lot of us went to Rutgers, and you just didn't get the same feeling. Ever. It was very defensive, in fact.

Hell, when we drove out to State College for the Penn State game in 1988, I thought that town was fun as hell. I can see why people want to spend four years there. I am a big fan of New Brunswick, but there was no comparison. I love Rutgers. I know its history better than most, I know its traditions, I learned the words to "The Bells Must Ring" when I was in high school -- no, I didn't have relatives who went there, it was my state school dammit! -- and I know I'm not "normal" or "typical." I was rare. But the Penn State thing was not. They all had it. And they can convince a visiting high school student or prospective athlete.

You can't quantify that. But it's real. And it doesn't mean they all love child rape.

And what's with this "inherent suspicion" BS you people talk about for Penn State grads? You think some employer is really going to associate a 22-year-old in 2018 with Jerry Sandusky? Living in the same fantasy world that expected Penn State football to disappear off the face of the earth. Guys got fired, some guy died, and they move on. A little worse for wear for a couple of years, but they move on. And so does everybody else, except a few on this board.

 

[e5fdny]

Having a child just starting high school in Monmouth County we had the opportunity to check out the academies that make up the specialized schools in the Vocational District.

First, I was amazed by the quality of the students. Very sharp kids, especially the ones at BioTech, HighTech and Allied Health. Both BioTech and HighTech are way, way up there in the national rankings and I think for 2013/14 BioTech might be #1 in NJ with HighTech not far behind.

The second thing I found very interesting in our visits were the amount of kids enrolling at Rutgers. Not just getting accepted (which considering the type of student is not surprising) but actually going there. It was a lot higher than I thought it would be. A lot higher.

I am sure there is some sort of financial incentive for those going to Rutgers, but these are the type of NJ HS kids who could go almost anywhere (and would probably be getting the financial aid they need at the other schools too) and are now going to Rutgers. I don't know if this has happened as much in the past?

Rutgers IS better now than it was when a lot of us were there and it looks like the best and brightest at the best New Jersey high schools are starting to realize this.

I wonder if this is part of a Rutgers marketing plan - come to us smart kid and we'll pick up the check, the $$$ of college these days, a combination of both or something else?


.




This post was edited on 7/8 9:13 AM by e5fdny

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by e5fdny:
Having a child just starting high school in Monmouth County we had the opportunity to check out the academies that make up the specialized schools in the Vocational District.

First, I was amazed by the quality of the students. Very sharp kids, especially the ones at BioTech, HighTech and Allied Health. Both BioTech and HighTech are way, way up there in the national rankings and I think for 2013/14 BioTech might be #1 in NJ with HighTech not far behind.

The second thing I found very interesting in our visits were the amount of kids enrolling at Rutgers. Not just getting accepted (which considering the type of student is not surprising) but actually going there. It was a lot higher than I thought it would be. A lot higher.

I am sure there is some sort of financial incentive for those going to Rutgers, but these are the type of NJ HS kids who could go almost anywhere (and would probably be getting the financial aid they need at the other schools too) and are now going to Rutgers. I don't know if this has happened as much in the past?

Rutgers IS better now than it was when a lot of us were there and it looks like the best and brightest at the best New Jersey high schools are starting to realize this.

I wonder if this is part of a Rutgers marketing plan - come to us smart kid and we'll pick up the check, the $$$ of college these days, a combination of both or something else?


.




This post was edited on 7/8 9:13 AM by e5fdny

I'd be surprised if Rutgers has that much extra money for financial aid. Probably a lot of what is going on is simply that Rutgers, as the in-state school, is cheaper than the competition, and this particularly helps in an era of recession and eternal recovery from recession.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Perhaps the geography contributes to it- but PA is overall the most conservative Northeast state and among the least diverse especially in comparison to NJ which I think has something to do with it.

RU's entire problem is messaging. RU allows these moronic SL narratives. How many NJ residents know about the numbers Der posted? Why not take out a full page ad in all the NJ newspapers?

I agree about going OOS. I really wanted to go to NYU (I got into American btw, when I applied it was considered easier than RU!) but in retrospect RU was 100% the right call and NYU would have been a waste of money.

As a general proposition, I do not understand how NJ parents justify OOS unless it's Ivy League, Stanford, Duke, maybe Michigan and UVA, but certainly no one ranked lower than that, over Rutgers. Anyone who thinks you stand a better chance landing a job or grad school placement with a degree from State Penn over RU is clueless. Not to mention the inherent suspiscion you will get in some quarters.

OTOH, I can see if your kid doesn't get into RU and TCNJ- the other NJ schools are pretty poorly regarded- and your kid gets into an easier OOS state school like a SUNY or WVU or something- that costs just as much or less. That I get.

Because people don't read newspapers. I have no idea what mailers we send to students, but I would assume something similar (selectively comparing us to other local publics) is in there and our other advertising geared towards potential students.

Part of it is of course prestige - 10 people from your high school might go to RU, whereas PSU might get two. You look better even if you aren't (and you pay twice as much). WIth the density of schools in the area, its easy enough to stay regional and still go out of state.

 

[e5fdny]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by e5fdny:
Having a child just starting high school in Monmouth County we had the opportunity to check out the academies that make up the specialized schools in the Vocational District.

First, I was amazed by the quality of the students. Very sharp kids, especially the ones at BioTech, HighTech and Allied Health. Both BioTech and HighTech are way, way up there in the national rankings and I think for 2013/14 BioTech might be #1 in NJ with HighTech not far behind.

The second thing I found very interesting in our visits were the amount of kids enrolling at Rutgers. Not just getting accepted (which considering the type of student is not surprising) but actually going there. It was a lot higher than I thought it would be. A lot higher.

I am sure there is some sort of financial incentive for those going to Rutgers, but these are the type of NJ HS kids who could go almost anywhere (and would probably be getting the financial aid they need at the other schools too) and are now going to Rutgers. I don't know if this has happened as much in the past?

Rutgers IS better now than it was when a lot of us were there and it looks like the best and brightest at the best New Jersey high schools are starting to realize this.

I wonder if this is part of a Rutgers marketing plan - come to us smart kid and we'll pick up the check, the $$$ of college these days, a combination of both or something else?


.





This post was edited on 7/8 9:13 AM by e5fdny

I'd be surprised if Rutgers has that much extra money for financial aid. Probably a lot of what is going on is simply that Rutgers, as the in-state school, is cheaper than the competition, and this particularly helps in an era of recession and eternal recovery from recession.

That's what I was thinking too but still was impressed how many were still going regardless after hearing all the bad stuff on here and in the paper.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by e5fdny:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by e5fdny:
Having a child just starting high school in Monmouth County we had the opportunity to check out the academies that make up the specialized schools in the Vocational District.

First, I was amazed by the quality of the students. Very sharp kids, especially the ones at BioTech, HighTech and Allied Health. Both BioTech and HighTech are way, way up there in the national rankings and I think for 2013/14 BioTech might be #1 in NJ with HighTech not far behind.

The second thing I found very interesting in our visits were the amount of kids enrolling at Rutgers. Not just getting accepted (which considering the type of student is not surprising) but actually going there. It was a lot higher than I thought it would be. A lot higher.

I am sure there is some sort of financial incentive for those going to Rutgers, but these are the type of NJ HS kids who could go almost anywhere (and would probably be getting the financial aid they need at the other schools too) and are now going to Rutgers. I don't know if this has happened as much in the past?

Rutgers IS better now than it was when a lot of us were there and it looks like the best and brightest at the best New Jersey high schools are starting to realize this.

I wonder if this is part of a Rutgers marketing plan - come to us smart kid and we'll pick up the check, the $$$ of college these days, a combination of both or something else?


.





This post was edited on 7/8 9:13 AM by e5fdny

I'd be surprised if Rutgers has that much extra money for financial aid. Probably a lot of what is going on is simply that Rutgers, as the in-state school, is cheaper than the competition, and this particularly helps in an era of recession and eternal recovery from recession.

That's what I was thinking too but still was impressed how many were still going regardless after hearing all the bad stuff on here and in the paper.

I'm actually not that worried about the stuff in the paper or on here. Almost all of it concerns the athletic program, and I think most applicants couldn't care less. (Sports fans tend to assume that everybody else -- at least every other guy -- is interested in going to football games,but obviously the student section at the stadium would be overflowing if that were true.) Applicants tend to focus on what good they and their families can get out of going to Rutgers, and well they should.

 

[e5fdny]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by e5fdny:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by e5fdny:
Having a child just starting high school in Monmouth County we had the opportunity to check out the academies that make up the specialized schools in the Vocational District.

First, I was amazed by the quality of the students. Very sharp kids, especially the ones at BioTech, HighTech and Allied Health. Both BioTech and HighTech are way, way up there in the national rankings and I think for 2013/14 BioTech might be #1 in NJ with HighTech not far behind.

The second thing I found very interesting in our visits were the amount of kids enrolling at Rutgers. Not just getting accepted (which considering the type of student is not surprising) but actually going there. It was a lot higher than I thought it would be. A lot higher.

I am sure there is some sort of financial incentive for those going to Rutgers, but these are the type of NJ HS kids who could go almost anywhere (and would probably be getting the financial aid they need at the other schools too) and are now going to Rutgers. I don't know if this has happened as much in the past?

Rutgers IS better now than it was when a lot of us were there and it looks like the best and brightest at the best New Jersey high schools are starting to realize this.

I wonder if this is part of a Rutgers marketing plan - come to us smart kid and we'll pick up the check, the $$$ of college these days, a combination of both or something else?


.







This post was edited on 7/8 9:13 AM by e5fdny

I'd be surprised if Rutgers has that much extra money for financial aid. Probably a lot of what is going on is simply that Rutgers, as the in-state school, is cheaper than the competition, and this particularly helps in an era of recession and eternal recovery from recession.

That's what I was thinking too but still was impressed how many were still going regardless after hearing all the bad stuff on here and in the paper.

I'm actually not that worried about the stuff in the paper or on h ere. Almost all of it concerns the athletic program, and I think most applicants couldn't care less. (Sports fans tend to assume that everybody else -- at least every other guy -- is interested in going to football games,but obviously the student section at the stadium would be overflowing if that were true.) Applicants tend to focus on what good they and their families can get out of going to Rutgers, and well they should.

Well the other point I was talking about is that this type of kid (considering there are no sports offered at these specialized high schools-if they want to play a sport they do it at their own sending district HS) has a lot of options. And those options will include some very good if not excellent financial aid packages.

And yet they are still choosing Rutgers. So I don't think for this type of student it's all about the $$$.

Here's hoping Rutgers is doing something more than just making it less expensive.


.
This post was edited on 7/8 4:05 PM by e5fdny

 

[virginiaru]

Its probably a mix of lower cost and some recruiting. Check out page 72 of the latest Rutgers alumni magazine with the story of the student who chose Rutgers over MIT.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Actually- A LOT of kids from my HS went to State Penn...probably as many as went to RU. I don't think it's a prestige thing. Based on those SAT scores, it seems to me it's not really harder to get into one- it's a monetary thing- which plays well in some parts in NJ...including where I grew up.

BTW...this past weekend, a proud cult alumnae threatened to kick me out of someone else's house (always so sharp) because I said Paterno bore responsibility for the coverup.

So yes I do think employers concern themselves with the caliber of person that graduates from a place where independent thoughts are frowned upon. I can't think of a school outside of Liberty and its ilk where that kind of thinking is encouraged. Private religious schools have gay groups.

Say a coach should have called the cops on a decade plus of abuse and fire him for not...turn over a car and set it in on fire. Yes, that's who you want working for you. And don't tell me it happens everywhere, the list of coaches fired for less and with expansive resumes is a long one and list of riots is short. Look at the debate we have had on this board. There's name calling, but no one was torching the grease trucks, building a Rice statue...we are allowed reasonable debate because we are an open community where diversity doesn't mean just racial, it means economic, thought, political, etc because NJ is, and I'm so thankful for this everyday, not the state to the west of us, and a bunch of people from NY/NJ/MD/VA with parents who think spending extra money guarantees better education.

And please don't tell me it's isolated, or a few bad apples. Deadspin was posting the facebook statuses they were so bad, thousands rioted, nevermind what's happening on BWI or your daily interactions with them if you deign yourself to do so.

When they say we are...they are...they are and I'm not interested in RU becoming the football North Korea. Compare us to someone else.

 

[retired711]

Any employer would be idiotic for holding Paterno/Sandusky, etc. against a graduate of Penn State. A person who goes there is not in any way endorsing what happened.

 

[lawmatt78]

I have to agree with camdenlawprof. I'm a little sick of hearing about the Sandusky thing.

 

[NotInRHouse]

It's not holding the scandal against the alumni. It's holding the REACTION to the scandal against the alumni,

It's hard to think of time in a democratic country where people wept, rioted, carried on, made statutes, and vocally supported someone who committed a heinous act.

I think it is quite foolish to brush aside that fact if you are interviewing someone from that community.

And forgetting about it, or getting tired of it, will let it happen again and again, as history shows.

I'd like to think there are enough people with morals to question it. And to be sure, some alumni spoke out, and do speak out, and are in reality, and should be commended and applauded, there just don't seem to be much of them.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
It's not holding the scandal against the alumni. It's holding the REACTION to the scandal against the alumni,

It's hard to think of time in a democratic country where people wept, rioted, carried on, made statutes, and vocally supported someone who committed a heinous act.

I think it is quite foolish to brush aside that fact if you are interviewing someone from that community.

And forgetting about it, or getting tired of it, will let it happen again and again, as history shows.

I'd like to think there are enough people with morals to question it. And to be sure, some alumni spoke out, and do speak out, and are in reality, and should be commended and applauded, there just don't seem to be much of them.

No employer has the *slightest idea* what the Penn State graduate did in reaction. It's a little much to assume that every single alum "wept, noted [what's noting?] carried on, made statutes [you mean "statues," don't you?) and vocally supported someone who committed a heinous act." Nor do I think it would be even relevant for an employer to ask about the matter unless the employer is looking for an ethics officer for an athletic department. How is it relevant to whether someone would make, for instance, a good engineer? You're way over the top on this one, NIRH.

 

[Cofifa]

Penn State encourages a strong sense of community with the undergraduates and actively cultivates it's alumni base. Rutgers needs to improve in this area . My wife and I each have two degrees from Rutgers I hear from Alumni Relations with solicitations for contributions and I quarterly receive a rather nice magazine . Maybe a little Happy Valley along the Raritain could go a long way.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by Cofifa:
Penn State encourages a strong sense of community with the undergraduates and actively cultivates it's alumni base. Rutgers needs to improve in this area . My wife and I each have two degrees from Rutgers I hear from Alumni Relations with solicitations for contributions and I quarterly receive a rather nice magazine . Maybe a little Happy Valley along the Raritain could go a long way.

Colfifa, I have heard this from other Penn State grads. And I can tell you that when there is a Penn State game on TV, the sports bars are jammed with their fans.

BTW, I want to mostly take back something I said above: that I didn't think athletics played that big a part in attracting students to a school. My understanding is that Penn State at Happy Valley is about 51% male. This contrasts with virtually every other institution in the region: at all of them, including Rutgers, women outnumber men. (at my campus, it is close to 57%, no thanks to the law school.) Something is drawing male students to Penn State, and I can't think of what it would be other than athletics. So athletics do make a difference, although I think not as big a one as denizens of the Scarlet Nation boards tend to think.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

Originally posted by Cofifa:
Penn State encourages a strong sense of community with the undergraduates and actively cultivates it's alumni base. Rutgers needs to improve in this area . My wife and I each have two degrees from Rutgers I hear from Alumni Relations with solicitations for contributions and I quarterly receive a rather nice magazine . Maybe a little Happy Valley along the Raritain could go a long way.

In what ways should RU be doing this that they aren't? This comes up a lot and I'm always curious as to what RU is not doing or could be doing that other schools are

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by Cofifa:
Penn State encourages a strong sense of community with the undergraduates and actively cultivates it's alumni base. Rutgers needs to improve in this area . My wife and I each have two degrees from Rutgers I hear from Alumni Relations with solicitations for contributions and I quarterly receive a rather nice magazine . Maybe a little Happy Valley along the Raritain could go a long way.

Colfifa, I have heard this from other Penn State grads. And I can tell you that when there is a Penn State game on TV, the sports bars are jammed with their fans.

BTW, I want to mostly take back something I said above: that I didn't think athletics played that big a part in attracting students to a school. My understanding is that Penn State at Happy Valley is about 51% male. This contrasts with virtually every other institution in the region: at all of them, including Rutgers, women outnumber men. (at my campus, it is close to 57%, no thanks to the law school.) Something is drawing male students to Penn State, and I can't think of what it would be other than athletics. So athletics do make a difference, although I think not as big a one as denizens of the Scarlet Nation boards tend to think.

camden - the latter has mostly (packed sports bars), if not entirely to do with the fact that their football team was one of the two or three winningest for half a century and probably nothing to do with alumni outreach.

As far as athletics - the question still is, as it is everywhere, is athletics drawing better students, or just more applicants of the same, or even lesser quality.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Sorry for the typos, I was in a rush, but I stand by my point.

Don't you think the overwhelming reaction from the student body shows a lack of ethics and morals? Engineers should still have ethics. I wouldn't want someone designing a building that turns over cars or cries on facebook over criminals. And not that interviewers will ask it- but they will consider it. How could you not? Do you think that if say, a BYU alum applies for a job, that that person will not drink alcohol at social functions, and maybe that is a positive or negative depending on the employer?

RU alums should have pride. They should not be delusional. While people from NJ may be a lot of bad things, they are mostly not kool aid drinkers.

 

[Korbermeister]

'While people from NJ may be a lot of bad things'... What's the point of this statement and how does it not apply to every state in the union? It's detracts and distracts from your point.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Sorry for the typos, I was in a rush, but I stand by my point.

Don't you think the overwhelming reaction from the student body shows a lack of ethics and morals? Engineers should still have ethics. I wouldn't want someone designing a building that turns over cars or cries on facebook over criminals. And not that interviewers will ask it- but they will consider it. How could you not? Do you think that if say, a BYU alum applies for a job, that that person will not drink alcohol at social functions, and maybe that is a positive or negative depending on the employer?

RU alums should have pride. They should not be delusional. While people from NJ may be a lot of bad things, they are mostly not kool aid drinkers.

Sure they are. Hell, they continuously elect the same corrupt politicians. They are well known for it.

 

[lawmatt78]

Originally posted by Cofifa:
Penn State encourages a strong sense of community with the undergraduates and actively cultivates it's alumni base. Rutgers needs to improve in this area . My wife and I each have two degrees from Rutgers I hear from Alumni Relations with solicitations for contributions and I quarterly receive a rather nice magazine . Maybe a little Happy Valley along the Raritain could go a long way.

PSU grads have a lot of pride. So do most Big Ten grads.

Rutgers is probably near the bottom of the Big Ten in alumni pride. Maybe this is changing with younger grads.

 

[lawmatt78]

Originally posted by Korbermeister:
'While people from NJ may be a lot of bad things'... What's the point of this statement and how does it not apply to every state in the union? It's detracts and distracts from your point.

Well, on average they are more intense, negative, uptight, etc. I think most people who have moved elsewhere would attest to that.

But you're right - it's not really relevant here.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I didn't mean political kool aid which I would separate and it happens in probably 40 of 50 states.

What I meant was people in NJ are natural skeptics- which I think is a good quality.

I think also more than less people in NJ are negative- which is a bad one. And I'm not trying to insult people from NJ. I lived in NY for a total 11 years, two separate periods and two different places and found attitudes mostly similar. People from LI are at least as bad, maybe worse. And the rest of my life I've lived in NJ. Worked in NY and NJ. The negativity is everywhere.

Younger RU alums are up there with anyone in the B1G- it is the "lost generation" of the 80s and 90s that are problem (and the people today often in the best financial position.

That, and as Der often points out, we were a very different school decades ago and many alumni can no longer identify with the school.

That certainly doesn't make us better or worse than anyone else.

My point is- god forbid if something like that happened here, most of the other Power 5, the reaction from the community would not be embrace of someone who protected a criminal for over a decade. And we've seen that when other coaches were canned.

In terms of the OP- the student quality is the same. We clearly have invested less in athletics. The rest? Well that is the debate.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
I didn't mean political kool aid which I would separate and it happens in probably 40 of 50 states.

What I meant was people in NJ are natural skeptics- which I think is a good quality.

I think also more than less people in NJ are negative- which is a bad one. And I'm not trying to insult people from NJ. I lived in NY for a total 11 years, two separate periods and two different places and found attitudes mostly similar. People from LI are at least as bad, maybe worse. And the rest of my life I've lived in NJ. Worked in NY and NJ. The negativity is everywhere.

Younger RU alums are up there with anyone in the B1G- it is the "lost generation" of the 80s and 90s that are problem (and the people today often in the best financial position.

That, and as Der often points out, we were a very different school decades ago and many alumni can no longer identify with the school.

That certainly doesn't make us better or worse than anyone else.

My point is- god forbid if something like that happened here, most of the other Power 5, the reaction from the community would not be embrace of someone who protected a criminal for over a decade. And we've seen that when other coaches were canned.

In terms of the OP- the student quality is the same. We clearly have invested less in athletics. The rest? Well that is the debate.

Oh - no - if it happened now it wouldn't be. If it happened fifty year from now, and during that fifty years we were consistently one of the best teams in the country, all under one legendary coach - then yes, I think the RU and local community would react more or less the same.

So much of the conditions at PSU are because they had great football for so long, under one coach, that it hard to compare with other places.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Are you sure? How about Indiana when Bobby Knight was fired?

People would be pissed- I don't think they'd be in denial. There's a difference.

 

[derleider]

Honestly, I have no idea how Indiana reacted to Bobby Knight being fired. But I would guess there were plenty of IU fans who over the years looked over this ridiculous behavior. I mean what do you suggest is the difference between Indiana and PSU? They are both isolated campuses in small towns where the school dominates the local area and where success in one major sport more or less defines the school.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Are you sure? How about Indiana when Bobby Knight was fired?

People would be pissed- I don't think they'd be in denial. There's a difference.

As I recall, there were many people at Indiana who thought that Knight's conduct was not a big deal or that the student had provoked him (which in fact the student had.) I am not sure I see the difference between their reaction and the Penn State reaction. The Penn State students didn't defend Sandusky; simply could not believe that JoePa had assisted in a cover-up. I think, NIRH, you've taken this far beyond reasonable bounds.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Are you sure? How about Indiana when Bobby Knight was fired?

People would be pissed- I don't think they'd be in denial. There's a difference.

As I recall, there were many people at Indiana who thought that Knight's conduct was not a big deal or that the student had provoked him (which in fact the student had.) I am not sure I see the difference between their reaction and the Penn State reaction. The Penn State students didn't defend Sandusky; simply could not believe that JoePa had assisted in a cover-up. I think, NIRH, you've taken this far beyond reasonable bounds.

More to the point - in the real world no on is going to turn down a random PSU grad over this. You can think they should, or hope they would. But they won't. If it couldn't even convince football players not to go there, it certainly is going to have NO effect on the rest of the student and alumni body other than being called fans of Ped State when they come to NB.