Rowan drops SAT/ACT requirement

[retired711]

Rowan has now given applicants the option of submitting an additional essay (no doubt produced with mommy's and daddy's "help:) instead of taking the SAT or ACT. Don't laugh; this kind of thing is happening at a lot of schools, including some very fine ones. I wonder whether this trend will spread to Rutgers. In fact, I wonder if we might end up in the U.Texas-Austin position of having to take the top eight % from each high school, good or bad.

Rowan demands essay instead

 

[TonyLieske]

I think I read Temple is doing the same thing.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Rowan has now given applicants the option of submitting an additional essay (no doubt produced with mommy's and daddy's "help:) instead of taking the SAT or ACT. Don't laugh; this kind of thing is happening at a lot of schools, including some very fine ones. I wonder whether this trend will spread to Rutgers. In fact, I wonder if we might end up in the U.Texas-Austin position of having to take the top eight % from each high school, good or bad.

Thats for the entire UT system.

NJ graduates rouhgly 100,000 students a year I think, so taking 10% automatically would be about 10,000. Thats more than all of RU's campuses combined take every year. But some of them would go elsewhere, so 10% might work. Maybe 6 or 8% is the number. I honestly don't think its a bad policy, for the RU system as a whole - if you are in the top 6 or 8 or 10% (whatever it takes to make the enrollment numbers work) of your HS class, you get in automatically.

 

[retired711]

DerLeider, I'd be interested in why you think the UT system would be a good one. I'm undecided.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
DerLeider, I'd be interested in why you think the UT system would be a good one. I'm undecided.

Because I take the mission of the school to support the state more seriously than alot of people - particularly when viewed as one system.

Also, I went to a relatively poor school. I can sympathize with how hard it is to succeed coming out of that kind of environment. Giving people a leg up - at least the chance to prove themselves seems like the right thing to do. If they get in, and then cant hack it - so be it.

Plus, I think it would be good PR for RU, and likely wouldnt change MUCH (if implemented as I suggested) in who we actually accept.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
DerLeider, I'd be interested in why you think the UT system would be a good one. I'm undecided.

Because I take the mission of the school to support the state more seriously than alot of people - particularly when viewed as one system.

Also, I went to a relatively poor school. I can sympathize with how hard it is to succeed coming out of that kind of environment. Giving people a leg up - at least the chance to prove themselves seems like the right thing to do. If they get in, and then cant hack it - so be it.

Plus, I think it would be good PR for RU, and likely wouldnt change MUCH (if implemented as I suggested) in who we actually accept.

Those are good arguments.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Such a system could be a problem for RU I think. Texas did that largely as a reaction to local politics. But also, they ran a small risk. The top 10% of a high school in the Valley will have a lot of interest in UT, as will the top 10% in Plano or whatever rich Texas area.

OTOH...the 10% at Camden and Newark will likely be interested. The top 10% at Rumson and Millburn, not so much.

Plus I think RU isn't lacking in diversity. I don't think even the biggest leftists on campus would bark up that tree.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Such a system could be a problem for RU I think. Texas did that largely as a reaction to local politics. But also, they ran a small risk. The top 10% of a high school in the Valley will have a lot of interest in UT, as will the top 10% in Plano or whatever rich Texas area.

OTOH...the 10% at Camden and Newark will likely be interested. The top 10% at Rumson and Millburn, not so much.

Plus I think RU isn't lacking in diversity. I don't think even the biggest leftists on campus would bark up that tree.

I actually think there will be a lot of interest -- and if not, Rutgers can simply use its conventional admissions system to make up the difference.

As for diversity, it depends what you mean. There are plenty of different ethnic and racial groups on campus. But blacks and Latinos remain underrepresented. So too, I suspect, are all low-income students.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Well who are we comparing to? The overall population or our peer universities?

We are probably top 3 in minorities in the B1G if not #1. Versus the state, Asians are probably overrepresented (as I believe they are about 1/4 of the RU population but probably half of that in state population) while I think the black and Latino populations are minorly underrepresented if I recall the last time we looked at this here. Something like, 12% or so each of the NJ population, and 8% each of the RU population.

I'm curious what makes you think more NJ students from the top HS would pick RU...just the automatic acceptance? In my experience, the most qualified NJ grads that pick RU do so for cost effectiveness, not wanting to go to far from home, or being lazy in high school but kicking butt on the SATs and then ending up there. I actually know more than one person that got 1400+ on the SATs, including someone with a 1600, that was in that boat. Old scores, BTW, lol. I think the other factor is a cultural one. Increasingly, Chinese, Korean, Indian, Middle Eastern, and Jewish students make up a large portion of the population, and don't necessarily do so at other Northeast schools. But all these people probably pick RU anyway.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Well who are we comparing to? The overall population or our peer universities?

We are probably top 3 in minorities in the B1G if not #1. Versus the state, Asians are probably overrepresented (as I believe they are about 1/4 of the RU population but probably half of that in state population) while I think the black and Latino populations are minorly underrepresented if I recall the last time we looked at this here. Something like, 12% or so each of the NJ population, and 8% each of the RU population.

I'm curious what makes you think more NJ students from the top HS would pick RU...just the automatic acceptance? In my experience, the most qualified NJ grads that pick RU do so for cost effectiveness, not wanting to go to far from home, or being lazy in high school but kicking butt on the SATs and then ending up there. I actually know more than one person that got 1400+ on the SATs, including someone with a 1600, that was in that boat. Old scores, BTW, lol. I think the other factor is a cultural one. Increasingly, Chinese, Korean, Indian, Middle Eastern, and Jewish students make up a large portion of the population, and don't necessarily do so at other Northeast schools. But all these people probably pick RU anyway.

Comparing us to the B1G is obviously fallacious. Many of their states have minority populations much lower than NJ. The relevant comparison is with the state of New Jersey. African-Americans are 8% at Rutgers and 14% in the state -- their proportion is only a little more than half. Latinos are 11% at Rutgers and something like 18% in the state -- over a 40% difference. Beside, keep in mind that a top 8% (or something like that) would also help all low-income students, who are those most likely to go to relatively poor high schools.

I don't understand your third paragraph. I never said that "more NJ students from the top HS would pick RU." As is too often the case, you are arguing with a straw man of your own invention.

 

[NotInRHouse]

You said "I think there would be a lot of interest" and I said in the post you quoted that wealthy towns would not have much interest. Is that not what you were referring to?

I don't think there is a huge variation in those numbers (less than percentage points)- and I also don't think you'd find many states that really line up with their minority percentages in terms of enrollment.

 

[retired711]

I don't think I was making the point you attribute to me. My point was that it would make Rutgers conspicuous for its admission policies.

Yes, most states don't line up with their minority percentages. But an "is" does not lead to an "ought." I'd suggest that it's those states who are doing the wrong thing. Finally, I would remind you again that low-income white kids would also benefit.

I'm not saying it's an idea that ought to be adopted, but rather that it deserves attention in a society in which those with lower incomes have less upward mobility than in the past.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I certainly get that. Admittedly, I'm asking myself "What's good for RU" in terms of this question instead of a societal benefit. IMO- I wouldn't alter our admissions policy except to become increasingly more competitive and get somewhere around 25% OOS.

If it were up to me, I'd end race based affirmative action, and use income based affirmative action in admissions. I would also ask if the prospective student is the first in his or her family to attend college. We still have racism but going forward the biggest division in our society is income, and it's pretty unfair that you have students with thousands of dollars in college prep taking the same curriculum and exams as those with none. Such a system would have a minimal effect on RU because RU already has a lot of that kind of diversity for a variety of reasons. But it would bring real game change and diversity to many American colleges.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
I certainly get that. Admittedly, I'm asking myself "What's good for RU" in terms of this question instead of a societal benefit. IMO- I wouldn't alter our admissions policy except to become increasingly more competitive and get somewhere around 25% OOS.

If it were up to me, I'd end race based affirmative action, and use income based affirmative action in admissions. I would also ask if the prospective student is the first in his or her family to attend college. We still have racism but going forward the biggest division in our society is income, and it's pretty unfair that you have students with thousands of dollars in college prep taking the same curriculum and exams as those with none. Such a system would have a minimal effect on RU because RU already has a lot of that kind of diversity for a variety of reasons. But it would bring real game change and diversity to many American colleges.

This is de facto income based affirmative action, as HSs are highly segregated by income (probably even more so than by class in NJ because of the township system).

 

[NotInRHouse]

But it could have a negative effect of pulling lesser qualified students and keeping more qualified students out. That's the whole problem with affirmative action- it's too automatic. Essentially, that's a quota system, which the SCOTUS rightfully sneers at. What gets past them is when a school like Michigan makes the totally false claim that it doesn't just add 10 points to the LSAT score of minority applications like every single law school does.

It should be a "factor" test, in essence taking the SAT score into consideration with HOW it was arrived at...not just an up/down.

 

[RUfinal4]

Doesn't RU have a valedictorian program where the #1 kid from each NJ public hs gets scholarship money? Maybe extend that program to the top 5 of each hs class. If you go with a top 5% get in automatically then add an SAT / ACT minimum requirement too. This way if a kid is top 5 in his / her hs class but scores low on the SAT / ACT then they don't get auto admission.

Rutgers should keep the SAT / ACT as part of admission.