Schiano needs more support to Win Championships

[yesrutgers01]

Yes .
But if he had the talent his game day coaching would magically be better

This is a fair question. I do think that with tge coaches we have in place, if we had consistent top 10-20 classes, we would be much better. But, the fact that Greg has had a such a hard time finding a way to win any game against better teams, I’m not sure if he could run tge gauntlet of the playoffs.
This is my biggest concern with Greg. He just can’t pull off a big upset. He can win tge games he is supposed to, he develops good players, build a solid program but he needs to get a statement win or two before I am confident in him.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Last year he had a .444 Conference Win percentage, which easily could have been .555, if not for the Illinois mistake. He is the best this University is capable of hiring. While his game day coaching is suspect, he is an exceptional recruiter.
The talent on the roster is light years better than where it was in 2020. While the roster is a notch below PSU, OSU, and Michigan, it should be competitive with everyone else. That is a testimony to his hard work and dedication, overcoming the constraints for his situation— limited resources.

This. And don’t forget that to date he has an unblemished record in non-conference play. While we don’t play murders row this sure beats getting the snot blown out of us vs Buffalo and losing to Eastern Michigan types.

 

[Section124]

We will never raise blue blood money, but hopefully we can raise enough to compete.
And maybe once in a while we can enjoy a special season.

Al, you are all over the place. The title of this thread is Schiano needs funds to win championships and then you admit you are just looking for a special season once in a while. This thread is just an engagement thread since you don’t even really believe we can win here.

 

[newell138]

So not worth it to aim high, huh ? Then why play ? You’re OK with being the Big10’s version of Wagner ?

Shelby doesn’t expect to ever be OSU and that’s fine but the university being ok with an under .400 conference ceiling with this unwanted by anyone else hack is a disgrace.

Keeping this guy indefinitely with raises and extensions is the same as a tomato can boxer taking a dive every fight only being interested in the paycheck.

I'd hardly call us the BIG version of Wagner. In the 2 major sports we are middle of the pack

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

So not worth it to aim high, huh ? Then why play ? You’re OK with being the Big10’s version of Wagner ?

Shelby doesn’t expect to ever be OSU and that’s fine but the university being ok with an under .400 conference ceiling with this unwanted by anyone else hack is a disgrace.

Keeping this guy indefinitely with raises and extensions is the same as a tomato can boxer taking a dive every fight only being interested in the paycheck.

He’s not being kept “indefinitely”. Eventually he’s going to retire and based on where we are, we’ll be in a much better position than when he started round two. The program has been steady since he returned and recruitment is trending up despite financial limitations.

“Aim high” makes no sense in the context your using it in. Let’s bring someone in who has never been head coach of a major conference team and assume they have more of a chance of leading us to the promise land in a future year because Greg hasn’t done so thus far. You realize that’s like thinking a coin is more likely to land on heads next time since tails has come up 3 times in a row.

The reality is anyone close to a slam dunk is out of our budget right now and from a long term perspective, maintaining a steady program is important. Greg is just as likely to have the pieces come together for a banner season like 2006 as anyone from the realistic pool of replacements your going to suggest. The guy you were hoping for went 5-7 at Kansas last year. He won 2 games in his first season and had another 6-7 season. So basically - the data suggesting he’s mountains better than Greg is based on one 8 win season in the B12 (a lesser conference by far than the BIG) with a bowl win over UNLV. Wow - big deal.

 

[rutgersal]

Al, you are all over the place. The title of this thread is Schiano needs funds to win championships and then you admit you are just looking for a special season once in a while. This thread is just an engagement thread since you don’t even really believe we can win here.

We need support to win. That’s the whole point of this thread. Without support, we have to settle for a special season once in a while. Support gives us a fighting chance, though there are no guarantees.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I'd hardly call us the BIG version of Wagner. In the 2 major sports we are middle of the pack

This is why nobody pays attention to him. BIG version of Wagner (aka an embarrassing FCS team) yet we’ve gone bowling the past 2 years and are in a very good place with recruiting. No - we’re not in the natty conversation mix, but we’re arguably closer to a dark horse contender than we are to the BIG version of Wagner. How can we be an embarrassment to the conference when we haven’t even lost to anyone outside of the conference in non-conference play?

 

[rutgersal]

This is a fair question. I do think that with tge coaches we have in place, if we had consistent top 10-20 classes, we would be much better. But, the fact that Greg has had a such a hard time finding a way to win any game against better teams, I’m not sure if he could run tge gauntlet of the playoffs.
This is my biggest concern with Greg. He just can’t pull off a big upset. He can win tge games he is supposed to, he develops good players, build a solid program but he needs to get a statement win or two before I am confident in him.

Better support would improve his ability to land the Top 10-20 classes we yearn for, which would help us beat better teams. Hard to be successful when you’re going into every season with 3 likely losses. This year it’s Oregon, Penn State, and OSU.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Better support would improve his ability to land the Top 10-20 classes we yearn for, which would help us beat better teams. Hard to be successful when you’re going into every season with 3 likely losses. This year it’s Oregon, Penn State, and OSU.

While more money would certainly help it seems like money is somewhat less of a factor in football than basketball. Tradition still seems to matter to an extent and player development isn’t completely obsolete the way it has become with hoops.

 

[rutgersal]

While more money would certainly help it seems like money is somewhat less of a factor in football than basketball. Tradition still seems to matter to an extent and player development isn’t completely obsolete the way it has become with hoops.

Yes. In football, physical development is more of a factor, whereas in basketball it’s important but not as big a factor. Which is why we are able to get by with smoke and mirrors by plugging holes with lower conference kids in football. Doesn’t work so well in basketball.

In basketball we have to pay up for talent because it’s a smaller pool of kids and talent is scarcer.

We have to put ourselves in the best position to land the tier of kids just under the elite, while competing for an elite kid once in a while. That means parity in facilities with peers like Maryland and Syracuse, who have pulled ahead of us in recent years. Our football facilities improvements in 2004, helped us land the talent, which enabled us to beat Syracuse most years, which is what we did from 2005-2012. Their new facility will make it more difficult to recruit against them.

 

[Shelby65]

He’s not being kept “indefinitely”. Eventually he’s going to retire and based on where we are, we’ll be in a much better position than when he started round two. The program has been steady since he returned and recruitment is trending up despite financial limitations.

“Aim high” makes no sense in the context your using it in. Let’s bring someone in who has never been head coach of a major conference team and assume they have more of a chance of leading us to the promise land in a future year because Greg hasn’t done so thus far. You realize that’s like thinking a coin is more likely to land on heads next time since tails has come up 3 times in a row.

The reality is anyone close to a slam dunk is out of our budget right now and from a long term perspective, maintaining a steady program is important. Greg is just as likely to have the pieces come together for a banner season like 2006 as anyone from the realistic pool of replacements you’re going to suggest. The guy you were hoping for went 5-7 at Kansas last year. He won 2 games in his first season and had another 6-7 season. So basically - the data suggesting he’s mountains better than Greg is based on one 8 win season in the B12 (a lesser conference by far than the BIG) with a bowl win over UNLV. Wow - big deal.

No, indefinitely is the right term. Lowest bar in D1.

Never a such thing as a slam dunk, or even probably better. But accepting mediocrity is a loser’s mentality. Got to keep trying to hopefully land a big winner rather than keep the guy who isn’t.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Better support would improve his ability to land the Top 10-20 classes we yearn for, which would help us beat better teams. Hard to be successful when you’re going into every season with 3 likely losses. This year it’s Oregon, Penn State, and OSU.

Understood- but we still need to get one of these wins at some point. We are no longer a doormat and have the capability to pull off an upset. Even last year- how well we played against OSU says that we have the talent that if everything breaks right for us and everything wrong for them...or at least a couple of big turnovers- then a great HC finds a way to find a win like that every once in a while.

The way Greg has built the team- getting mid to high 3 star and some low 4 star players out of HS and the ability to keep them 3-4 years and fill in the gaps with the really smart transfers...we are getting to a point a big upset should happen soon.

 

[LotusAggressor]

The never ending Quixotic quest for a fieldhouse and championship football. RU is fortunate to be in this athletic conference. It could have played out differently. Continue to get more competitive should be the goal. Maybe we will have one of those magical years at some point, which would be a qualifier in a 16 team playoff. We are not going to be Michigan or OSU.

Last season could have been that magical year. Curious coaching decisions, injuries, and a couple of no-show efforts derailed that train.

 

[rutgersal]

Understood- but we still need to get one of these wins at some point. We are no longer a doormat and have the capability to pull off an upset. Even last year- how well we played against OSU says that we have the talent that if everything breaks right for us and everything wrong for them...or at least a couple of big turnovers- then a great HC finds a way to find a win like that every once in a while.

The way Greg has built the team- getting mid to high 3 star and some low 4 star players out of HS and the ability to keep them 3-4 years and fill in the gaps with the really smart transfers...we are getting to a point a big upset should happen soon.

The next step in our progression, is to be able to beat the Iowa/Nebraska/Wisconsin type teams, and we’ll have a great chance to do so in September, when we play Iowa. I’m hopeful we can also pick off Penn State or Oregon.

OSU is out of reach for now.

 

[Caliknight]

Schiano had all the support in the world 1.0 version. We were on par in every way with our league mates. He never won. He’s not winning in the B1G regardless of NIL or field houses. He’s a great leader, very good DC, solid recruiter, average at best game day coach.

Not sure about the DC. His D got rung up like a cash register in the last bowl game. Modern offenses have always been a huge thorn in his side. He has a hard time understanding you can zig when the old school playbook calls for a zag.

 

[scarletbergen]

While more money would certainly help it seems like money is somewhat less of a factor in football than basketball. Tradition still seems to matter to an extent and player development isn’t completely obsolete the way it has become with hoops.

$$$$$$$ is everything in everything!

We need MORE money!

 

[rutgersal]

Not sure about the DC. His D got rung up like a cash register in the last bowl game. Modern offenses have always been a huge thorn in his side. He has a hard time understanding you can zig when the old school playbook calls for a zag.

You’ve got to be kidding me. Last year was a minor miracle that easily could have gone south. Could have easily been 4-8 but we finished 7-6, and we were a bonehead coaching call away from
8-5. Previously we haven’t even come close.

Injuries limited our results, with our starting ends banged up and the LB corp hit hard.

Schiano’s best coaching job ever, with a strong assist from Joe H. We are still building the talent and depth, and have a fair chance of exceeding last year’s results.

 

[Caliknight]

No, not kidding. He's never been a great game day coach and never will be. That's ok. He is great at organizing, time management, and implementing his program. He would be best served focusing on just getting kick ass coaches and getting out of their way. All coaches have some issue and that's his biggest one. I've long said the very characteristics that have brought him to this level of success will be the very ones that stop him from gaining further success.

 

[rutgersal]

No, not kidding. He's never been a great game day coach and never will be. That's ok. He is great at organizing, time management, and implementing his program. He would be best served focusing on just getting kick ass coaches and getting out of their way. All coaches have some issue and that's his biggest one. I've long said the very characteristics that have brought him to this level of success will be the very ones that stop him from gaining further success.

He is also great at recruiting. Everyone knows his game day coaching faults, but he nevertheless has been able to maximize our results. The biggest constraint on his success is money, which limits our talent level.

 

[Caliknight]

The Illinois "bonehead call" as you put isn't maximizing results. We are a 6-8 win program at best under Schiano. That will never change. Field house, no field house, NIL, won't matter. He's not a big winner. He's the guy you call to clean up a mess, which he does very well. But he's not the guy you call to beat Ohio St.

And all that is ok. Lots of program are in the position we are in.

 

[rutgersal]

The Illinois "bonehead call" as you put isn't maximizing results. We are a 6-8 win program at best under Schiano. That will never change. Field house, no field house, NIL, won't matter. He's not a big winner. He's the guy you call to clean up a mess, which he does very well. But he's not the guy you call to beat Ohio St.

And all that is ok. Lots of program are in the position we are in.

It’s maximizing results when you haven’t won 7 games since 2014, prior to last year. Now we’ve done it twice, and should have a chance of exceeding that total this year. Provide him the support and he will continuously improve our results. That’s all we’re after for now.

 

[Caliknight]

It’s maximizing results when you haven’t won 7 games since 2014, prior to last year. Now we’ve done it twice, and should have a chance of exceeding that total this year. Provide him the support and he will continuously improve our results. That’s all we’re after for now.

We can agree to disagree on that. OSU has crazy support, athletes the whole thing. When he was at the pinnacle of the sport his defense was just meh. There is a reason OSU didn't even sniff him. They are built to win. He's not that guy.

I said when he was hired, right the ship, get us respectable, then the next hire. That's the one where we will have a real chance.

With the new President coming from LSU, if I am Schiano, I'm standing at attention more than I had been. Which is a good thing for everyone.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

The Illinois "bonehead call" as you put isn't maximizing results. We are a 6-8 win program at best under Schiano. That will never change. Field house, no field house, NIL, won't matter. He's not a big winner. He's the guy you call to clean up a mess, which he does very well. But he's not the guy you call to beat Ohio St.

And all that is ok. Lots of program are in the position we are in.

This is a very fair assessment. That said, it should be noted that as you said in a separate post, he’s better served to delegate. He’s actually done a heck of a lot more of that (at least on offense) in round 2. So it’s safe to say he’s at least trying to learn from the past and grow. Certainly you are right that game day decision making isn’t his strength but everyone and anyone has strengths and weaknesses.

The bottom line is that we, right now, as a program are not close to being in a position where seeking out a replacement would be in our best interest. The program is trending in the right direction with recruiting and many other football related areas. It’s not like Schiano is 45 and will be around forever. Whether or not he’s able to lead us to a break through type season or not under his tenure, Rutgers fans can at least feel reasonably well assured that his steady leadership for however many more years Greg decides to stick around will set us up to be in a much better position when it comes time for him to retire.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Yes. In football, physical development is more of a factor, whereas in basketball it’s important but not as big a factor. Which is why we are able to get by with smoke and mirrors by plugging holes with lower conference kids in football. Doesn’t work so well in basketball.

In basketball we have to pay up for talent because it’s a smaller pool of kids and talent is scarcer.

There’s probably some truth to this (at some positions more than others) - but it’s not what I meant. Development skill as a coach has historically played a major role in success for both sports (in different ways) but in basketball, NIL makes this path to success close to obsolete because developmental kids are just so much more visible in hoops and as you said - there are way less players to keep track of. A talented developmental kid on our 2 deep for football, in contrast has next to nothing to use to market themselves based on should they enter the portal. A couple snaps isn’t convincing anyone of much or differentiating our 2 deep guys from say Maryland or North Carolina’s.

 

[rutgersal]

We can agree to disagree on that. OSU has crazy support, athletes the whole thing. When he was at the pinnacle of the sport his defense was just meh. There is a reason OSU didn't even sniff him. They are built to win. He's not that guy.

I said when he was hired, right the ship, get us respectable, then the next hire. That's the one where we will have a real chance.

With the new President coming from LSU, if I am Schiano, I'm standing at attention more than I had been. Which is a good thing for everyone.

His defense wasn’t just Meh. He had a good defense, two out of three years. The last year the defense slipped due to graduation, and it took time for the new kids to acclimate. The new President will take one look at our donation levels and he’ll realize what the real problem is and that he isn’t at LSU anymore. Schiano will continue to do a great job for us.

 

[rutgersal]

There’s probably some truth to this (at some positions more than others) - but it’s not what I meant. Development skill as a coach has historically played a major role in success for both sports (in different ways) but in basketball, NIL makes this path to success close to obsolete because developmental kids are just so much more visible in hoops and as you said - there are way less players to keep track of. A talented developmental kid on our 2 deep for football, in contrast has next to nothing to use to market themselves based on should they enter the portal. A couple snaps isn’t convincing anyone of much or differentiating our 2 deep guys from say Maryland or North Carolina’s.

Now I see what you meant, but the kids we are landing in basketball also require some development. Baye Fall averaged 1.3 pts last year. The European kids and the freshmen will also require development as they acclimate to this level of play. They are going to have to get a lot better to contribute at this level. I take your point on the football developmental kids.

 

[kupuna133]

We can agree to disagree on that. OSU has crazy support, athletes the whole thing. When he was at the pinnacle of the sport his defense was just meh. There is a reason OSU didn't even sniff him. They are built to win. He's not that guy.

I said when he was hired, right the ship, get us respectable, then the next hire. That's the one where we will have a real chance.

With the new President coming from LSU, if I am Schiano, I'm standing at attention more than I had been. Which is a good thing for everyone.

Agreed! Schiano better be reaching out to his connections in Baton Rouge to see what the new president drinks and be ordering whatever it is by the case load. From reading up on the new president he expects championships. And from what it looks like he knows how to rally donors to make that happen.

 

[Caliknight]

His defense wasn’t just Meh. He had a good defense, two out of three years. The last year the defense slipped due to graduation, and it took time for the new kids to acclimate. The new President will take one look at our donation levels and he’ll realize what the real problem is and that he isn’t at LSU anymore. Schiano will continue to do a great job for us.

If he's worth anything he will roll up his sleeves and get to work on fundraising. Then he will hold the next football coach that he and his AD hires to some winning standard.

As of today, GS isn't walking on water like some here and he thought he was. A tale as old as time- Presidents want their own hires and so do AD's. Schiano wasn't on the clock before but he's going to be now. Benchmarks need to be communicated and held to.


GS was at Ohio St. for two years. The first being Co DC with Fickell who had the D humming. Then he was given the reigns completely and I wouldn't say imploded but it was woefully below OSU standards including a 49-20 loss to Purdue- once again a modern offense befuddles him. Along with that came getting gashed by Maryland for 51. No one at OSU was unhappy to see him go as DC. If we are being honest, another year like that and he probably would have been fired.

He's a program builder. He's not a winner. There is a big difference.

 

[rutgersal]

Agreed! Schiano better be reaching out to his connections in Baton Rouge to see what the new president drinks and be ordering whatever it is by the case load. From reading up on the new president he expects championships. And from what it looks like he knows how to rally donors to make that happen.

LSU has budget to win Championships. Rutgers does not.

 

[kupuna133]

LSU has budget to win Championships. Rutgers does not.

Stop.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Stop.

Yeah- the constant money thing is getting so annoying. And I personally enjoy Al’s football stuff.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Now I see what you meant, but the kids we are landing in basketball also require some development. Baye Fall averaged 1.3 pts last year. The European kids and the freshmen will also require development as they acclimate to this level of play. They are going to have to get a lot better to contribute at this level. I take your point on the football developmental kids.

They absolutely require it. The point I’m making is any progress we make in year 1 will be instantly visible to the sharks in the portal market the following off season. Greg has way more time build relationships and work on development. Redshirting is still a thing as a frosh. And many talented sophomores don’t get enough snaps to be assessed by a potential portal market. This timeline doesn’t exist in hoops. It’s way harder.

 

[LotusAggressor]

The next step in our progression, is to be able to beat the Iowa/Nebraska/Wisconsin type teams, and we’ll have a great chance to do so in September, when we play Iowa. I’m hopeful we can also pick off Penn State or Oregon.

OSU is out of reach for now.

Penn State and Oregon are too.

 

[rutgersal]

They absolutely require it. The point I’m making is any progress we make in year 1 will be instantly visible to the sharks in the portal market the following off season. Greg has way more time build relationships and work on development. Redshirting is still a thing as a frosh. And many talented sophomores don’t get enough snaps to be assessed by a potential portal market. This timeline doesn’t exist in hoops. It’s way harder.

True

 

[rutgersal]

If he's worth anything he will roll up his sleeves and get to work on fundraising. Then he will hold the next football coach that he and his AD hires to some winning standard.

As of today, GS isn't walking on water like some here and he thought he was. A tale as old as time- Presidents want their own hires and so do AD's. Schiano wasn't on the clock before but he's going to be now. Benchmarks need to be communicated and held to.


GS was at Ohio St. for two years. The first being Co DC with Fickell who had the D humming. Then he was given the reigns completely and I wouldn't say imploded but it was woefully below OSU standards including a 49-20 loss to Purdue- once again a modern offense befuddles him. Along with that came getting gashed by Maryland for 51. No one at OSU was unhappy to see him go as DC. If we are being honest, another year like that and he probably would have been fired.

He's a program builder. He's not a winner. There is a big difference.

The order is once adequate fundraising results are realized and resources obtained, then we can talk about what the head coach should be achieving.

 

[Caliknight]

I’m prepared to have it now but thanks. Funding didn’t call that TO vs Illinois.

 

[rutgersal]

I’m prepared to have it now but thanks. Funding didn’t call that TO vs Illinois.

Ok. What should the expectations for the head coach be?

 

[Caliknight]

Real bowl games

 

[rutgersal]

Real bowl games

Define real bowl games

 

[LotusAggressor]

I’m prepared to have it now but thanks. Funding didn’t call that TO vs Illinois.

Or fail to adjust against Kansas State.