Simpson v Davis - Honor of Troller Shelby65

[lion1983]

So ... I thought I'd put this baby to rest, with actual analysis - cuz I have too much time on my hands. Forget that Shelby65 is a troller, speaks of himself or herself in the 3rd person (which is ... well ... quite narcissistic, eh, but obnoxious for sure). Let's just look at Simpson and Davis, side by side ... since in another thread Shelby and a couple of others seem so obsessed with them.

Shelby65 continues to argue, without any basis, evidence or analysis, except for a couple of very cherry-picked stats (like FT%), that Simpson is and was clearly the better player, is way better, etc. Is this actually true, based on the stats? Not even including our eyeballs?

First, let's look in detail at JUST each player's freshman season. Because comparing Simpson's SOPHOMORE season to Davis' FRESHMAN season is not really the proper or fair comparison when one is arguing "body of work" and potential development ... lets look at Apples to Apples. I would also argue that Davis is a purer PG, by style, while Simpson viewed himself and played a style more like a "lead" guard than a pure PG - and tried to model his play after his oft-stated favorite RU player, Baker.

Without NAMING either player at first, here are the stats:

MPG: 23 vs 20
PPG: 5.6 v 7.1
RPG: 3.1 v 1.6
APG: 1.9 v 1.5
TO/G: 1.3 v 0.9
Steals/G: 1.1 v 0.8
Blocks/g: 0.3 v 0.1
Ass/TO Ratio: 1.5 v 1.65
FG%: 37% v 37%
Shot Attempts: 175 v 246
3-point FG%: 22% v 22%
3-point Att: 36 v 60
2-point FG%" 41% v 42.5%
2-point attempts: 139 v 186
eFG%: 39.4% v 40%
FT% (a giveaway): 52% v 79%
FT att: 69 v 58

If you look at Per 40 Minutes, using just the counting stats because the percentages and ratios stay the same:

PPG: 9.7 v 14.2
RPG: 5.4 v 3.2
APG: 3.2 v 2.9
TO/G: 2.2 v 1.8
Steals/G: 2.0 v 1.5
Blocks/g: 0.5 v 0.2

More stats, more random:

1) As a frosh, Simpson had 11 double-digit scoring games, versus Davis having just 7. Davis' were spread out over the course of the season, while Simpson had 5 of his 11 in the last 6 games - 4 in a row at the end ... when he was given 30+ mpg in desperation by Pikiell, desperation for any offense. In those 4 games he shot 39% FG, still just 20% 3-point, but 46% from 2-point FG - but still only a 42% eFG - because he was taking many more 3-pointers (and missing) ... giving many the HOPE he would become a consistent double digit scorer as a sophomore, and could average 12 - 14 ppg. Simpson's assist/TO ratio dropped from 1.65 to 1.25 as he got more touches. I would argue Simpson was playing the role of a "lead guard" style PG not a pure PG.

2) As a freshman, Simpson had 6 games with 3 or more assists, and just 3 games with 4 or more assists. As a freshman, Davis had 11 games with 3 or more assists, and 5 games with 4 or more assists. These stats (from this point, and point #1 right above), support MY analysis that Davis and Simpson played very different roles: Davis as a purer PG, Simpson as a "lead guard" style PG.

3) As a SOPHOMORE, Simpson had a strange season, frankly - besides the obvious of being, literally, the WORST shooter in the NCAA. He DID have several terrific games: He had 11 games where he scored 10 or more points, and 7 games with 14 or more points ... on the other hand, he ALSO had 7 games with 2 or FEWER points, and 11 games with 4 or fewer points ... extremely inconsistent. Either he was able to score, in about 1/3 of the games, or he was completely useless and even damaging, also in about 1/3 of the games. To Simpson's credit, he did have 18 games in which he had 3 or more assists, including 10 with 4 or more assists ... yet he still only averaged 2.9 assists/game ... meaning he had many games with NOTHING], 1 or zero assists (7 overall).

One more thing Shelby criticized Davis for: Saying he was NOT a PG and was too shirt ot be a 2G ... well, Davis is 6'2" (which I agree is too short to be a 2G - though Jameer Young of Maryland and Boo Buie of NW seemed okay at that - but both were great offensive talents). But Simpson is just 6'3" - not all that much a difference.

I think the stats show pretty definitively that when Davis and Simpson were BOTH freshmen, they were extremely similar from an offensive efficiency standpoint (i.e. FG%, 3-point FG, 2-point FG, etc.), though Simpson took many more shot attempts (40% more overall, 66% more 3's and 34% more 2's) ... like MANY more, much less a PG than a shooter mentality - and in 13% FEWER minutes ... i.e. SIMPSON was the "chucker" and shot hog, NOT Davis ... and Davis played more minutes per game, yest took many fewer shots ... EXCEPT FT's: Davis took more FT attempts (i.e. drawing more fouls).

But the stats also show they were very different STYLE players - as pointed out above.

Defensively, Simpson is and was an excellent defensive player - and probably the better help defender (if my eyeballs are any good). But Davis is an elite on-ball defender, quicker, a much better rebounder, created more turnovers (and not just because he had more steals, but also because he created more havoc), and for his size is a very good shot-blocker.

Add to that the simple fact that Simpson was simply an AWFUL shooter last season, his sophomore season ... I give Davis the edge, and the greater upside - though stats-wise we may have to look through the static as they play different styles. I do wish Simpson well at St. Joes - where he will get a chance to improve and maybe be more consistent rather than the odd flashes, as their starting PG. Davis wlll be a reserve for RU because of the roster make-up, but IF ... and I say IF ... he improves his FG% and FT%, will earn minutes this year and lay a groundwork for a potential starting role as pure PG next season, if he stays.

 

[Scangg]

Why isn't Shelby on ignore?

@G- RUnit is the one who brought this up relentlessly btw

 

[G- RUnit]

Just pointing out hypocrisy and all the hell that Simpson caught last year. Hardly trolling by any stretch.

Rentless? If you look at my original review I thought many positives from the game. It’s all there. Not trolling. I brought up what I believed was a negative of the game. No name calling and believe fair commentary after what was written on this board all last season.

I thought 0-4 from off guard off Dylan, very good looks and wide open shots mind you, and missing at least one silly drive, bailed out by ref (which truth be told should have been a three point play) and which could have easily been 0-6, IMHO is a legitimate concern. Once attacked for that post I’m going to respond. Hardly trolling. No name calling or third person commentary on my part.

As to Lions opinion, I think many astute basketball fans can fairly disagree.
I think Davis plays very good D. Plays hard. Samething Simpson did for two years.

But elite and far better than Simpson? There’s absolutely no support that other than Lion’s opinion. Creates more havoc than Simpson?? Absolutely no support for that.

Davis quicker than Simpson? Pike said Simpson was one of the quickest players he’d ever seen. Think Coach Pike disagrees.

Davis is a better rebounder and better at steals? No support for that. In fact Simpson was better in both steals and rebounds while forced to be both the primary ball handler and shooter. More assists and better ratio too.

Clearly only guy on team last year who could get off his own shot. Yes he was an awful shooter but here’s the killer, so was Davis.
And if want to mock Simpson for being the worst shooter in the country who was just as poorly the worst foul shooting guard in the country.

Shot hog and chucker? Awful close to trolling no? And who did RU fans want shooting? Cliff? Mag who quit on team and took little to no heat ever? Hyatt, sure but he did get his shots. Lots of short and hypocritical memories.

Wish Simpson had had the luxury of only playing defense. Cant help but wonder what might have happened if he had the luxury of playing with Dylan. Will never know. Do know he played hard every game and hustled.

Being one of the best free throw shooters in the country and conference is cherry picking stats?? Hmmmmm. Lion might get deserve some blow back and disagreement as to his definition of cherry picking.

Like it or not despite awful shooting, Simpson won us many games over two years. I’m still amazed with Paul and Cam leaving last minute, Mag throwing in the towel, only getting JWill last minute, that we were almost .500. Simpson should have received more credit and less scorn. Might be unpopular take on this board but not without support.

And Scangg BTW, BTW worry about your self before needlessly calling out other posters if you don’t like their opinions.

 

[BillyC80]

Seems like the biggest issue, with both having identically low shooting percentages as freshmen, was that Simpson took so many more shots, especially when he had a pure shooter with him in the backcourt.

 

[NickRU714]

Seems like the biggest issue, with both having identically low shooting percentages as freshmen, was that Simpson took so many more shots, especially when he had a pure shooter with him in the backcourt.

And the problem is what value would Davis be adding to the court then?
If he's not a shooting threat and not the PG (would ever be on the court without Dylan or JWill) then he's just taking up space and allowing his defender to hedge towards Dylan/Ace.

 

[BillyC80]

And the problem is what value would Davis be adding to the court then?
If he's not a shooting threat and not the PG (would ever be on the court without Dylan or JWill) then he's just taking up space and allowing his defender to hedge towards Dylan/Ace.

Was referring to their freshman years. It remains to be seen what Davis will add for his sophomore year.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Why isn't Shelby on ignore?

@G- RUnit is the one who brought this up relentlessly btw

I am think we put the lion on probation here for not having him there

 

[Scangg]

Just pointing out hypocrisy and all the hell that Simpson caught last year. Hardly trolling by any stretch.

Rentless? If you look at my original review I thought many positives from the game. It’s all there. Not trolling. I brought up what I believed was a negative of the game. No name calling and believe fair commentary after what was written on this board all last season.

I thought 0-4 from off guard off Dylan, very good looks and wide open shots mind you, and missing at least one silly drive, bailed out by ref (which truth be told should have been a three point play) and which could have easily been 0-6, IMHO is a legitimate concern. Once attacked for that post I’m going to respond. Hardly trolling. No name calling or third person commentary on my part.

As to Lions opinion, I think many astute basketball fans can fairly disagree.
I think Davis plays very good D. Plays hard. Samething Simpson did for two years.

But elite and far better than Simpson? There’s absolutely no support that other than Lion’s opinion. Creates more havoc than Simpson?? Absolutely no support for that.

Davis quicker than Simpson? Pike said Simpson was one of the quickest players he’d ever seen. Think Coach Pike disagrees.

Davis is a better rebounder and better at steals? No support for that. In fact Simpson was better in both steals and rebounds while forced to be both the primary ball handler and shooter. More assists and better ratio too.

Clearly only guy on team last year who could get off his own shot. Yes he was an awful shooter but here’s the killer, so was Davis.
And if want to mock Simpson for being the worst shooter in the country who was just as poorly the worst foul shooting guard in the country.

Shot hog and chucker? Awful close to trolling no? And who did RU fans want shooting? Cliff? Mag who quit on team and took little to no heat ever? Hyatt, sure but he did get his shots. Lots of short and hypocritical memories.

Wish Simpson had had the luxury of only playing defense. Cant help but wonder what might have happened if he had the luxury of playing with Dylan. Will never know. Do know he played hard every game and hustled.

Being one of the best free throw shooters in the country and conference is cherry picking stats?? Hmmmmm. Lion might get deserve some blow back and disagreement as to his definition of cherry picking.

Like it or not despite awful shooting, Simpson won us many games over two years. I’m still amazed with Paul and Cam leaving last minute, Mag throwing in the towel, only getting JWill last minute, that we were almost .500. Simpson should have received more credit and less scorn. Might be unpopular take on this board but not without support.

And Scangg BTW, BTW worry about your self before needlessly calling out other posters if you don’t like their opinions.

Yes, relentlessly. You would bring it up in pretty much every thread all season long

 

[lion1983]

I am think we put the lion on probation here for not having him there

Sorry - I did not know you could put someone on ignore (I did so today on Shelby) - but I am not sure I understand what that does, exactly.

G-RUunit - my post was not directed at any of your comments. But I will address them here:

1) Shelby picking just ONE stat to cite as making Simpson superior is cherry picking, when there are many stats that show that Davis is better at a number of things.

2) You are simply wrong about steals and rebounds. There is plenty to support that Davis is "better" at steals and rebounds ... like ... actual stats. Especially when you compare each player's freshman seasons. In each player's frosh season Davis had more steals and more rebounds than did Simpson ... and on a per 40 minute basis (Davis played 23 mpg to Simpson's 20 mpg in each of their frosh years), Davis had 33% more steals and 70% more rebounds. I'd say that "supports" Davis was "better" than Simpson in those 2 categories.

3) It is true that Pikiell said Simpson was one of the quickest players he has had ... but that does not mean Davis is not quicker. I would say that if I had to decide, I would say Simpson has a better vertical leap, but with the eyeball test Davis is absolutely - and with the ball in their hands there is no doubt in MY mind Davis is quicker in getting the ball up court ... But I know I cannot prove that. But I am sure of it. Even so, even if you are correct Simpson is quicker (and we will have to agree to disagree), the STATS show Davis was the better steals player, and despite being shorter and in your opinion not as quick, the FAR better rebounder.

4) You talk about Davis being "bailed" out vs Wagner on 2 shots where they called the foul. I call bull-donkey on that characterization. Davis DRAWS fouls ... his problem last year was 52% FT ... ugh. If he shows he can shoot 70%+ he will score more per 40 minutes and earn playing time, especially at the end of games. Drawing fouls consistently is NOT accidental , but a skill- Davis drew more fouls than Simpson did, especially on a 40 minute basis. And players who draw fouls more often do so because they beat their defender more often, usually.

5) In re using the terms ball hog, etc., and whether that is trolling: I only used those expressions because Shelby65 used them - it was in response to him arguing Davis was a shot hog and Simpson was not. FYI: I do agree 100% that Simpson took more shots than he should have given how awful his shooting was NOT an indication of him being a ball or shot hog - and for the reasons you cite: No one else who could create their own shot. That said, without putting any judgment or label ... as freshmen, Simpson in 2022-23 took MANY more shots than did Davis - many, many more. No judgment or label, but a fact ... and he did take all those extra shots while being a bad shooter (as opposed to being awful like in 2023-24). My POINT in re shot-hoggery, again using Shelby's characterization that Davis was a shot hog while Simpson was NOT was that Shelby was simply wrong - and the stats show that. In more minutes than Simpson in each of their frosh seasons, Davis attempted hugely fewer shots (as a frosh Simpson took 40% more FG's, 66% more 3-pointers, while getting many fewer FT's than did Davis). And that is simply the FACTS, not a characterization or judgment or trolling.

6) And though I cannot prove it, I do contend Davis is the superior ON-BALL defender to Simpson, and more disruptive (steals and blocks being 2 elements that while not absolutely determinative, are at least one POSSIBLE "proof" or indicator of disruption - more prrof than there exists that Simpson is the better defender). I granted that Simpson was an excellent defender, and I even allowed that Simpson might be the better help defender.

 

[Shelby65]

The above is pure farce and not worth full rebuttal. You’re making shit up.

1.Shelby did not suggest only JMiss is a shot-hog (his term was shot hunter). He said both of them are, referring often to the other last year as DChucker. What distinguishes them in this area is that DMiss often turns it over taking on three defenders before ever taking the shot, while Simpson didn’t often muff the dribble..
2. It’s absurd to credit JMiss for shot blocking talent. Get a clue about the game.
3. Shelby doesn’t have a horse in the race. He didn’t like either player, or Fernandes for that matter but he did think NF was a better offensive player than both of them.

 

[GRU23]

Really it can be boiled down to something as simple as there was no need for two of this archetype, and JMike was the younger one and friends with Ace. Derek had his chance to take his leap and failed. He played pretty good D last year but there was always a ceiling how effective he could be on that end due to his skinniness. JMike has a stronger build and was already stellar defensively as a freshman, something Derek was not. Also, even though not really backed up by stats yet but I just feel more comfortable out there with JMike, at least he showcases touch on layups and in the intrasquad scrimmage showcased a floater that I hope to see more of. Then the last thing is it seems people really gravitate towards JMike, where people seemed to not have much respect for Derek last year. Ultimately, JMike had the right connections and more willing to play the current role asked than Derek would have and he at least has a bit of upside to improve

 

[G- RUnit]

Agree to disagree.

Yes, relentlessly. You would bring it up in pretty much every thread all season long

In fairness this Board was also relentless all season long against Simpson.

I’m not going to apologize for defending a player who hustled, gave 100 effort, played great D even when his offense suffered and won us games over two years, indeed he won us games as a freshman and a sophomore.

I can’t help but wonder how this Board would have reacted if Simpson had another 0-Fer and the same line as Davis. I suspect he would have been ripped. I find it curious with two players with similar games, that one is a hero and one became a villain and driven out of town.

Likewise Mags was a cult hero for many of you and got a free ride when he tanked last year. Nothing. But Simpson kid who played with heart and soul…

It’s a message board. Fair topic IMHO.
All good! Go RU!

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Agree to disagree.

In fairness this Board was also relentless all season long against Simpson.

I’m not going to apologize for defending a player who hustled, gave 100 effort, played great D even when his offense suffered and won us games over two years, indeed he won us games as a freshman and a sophomore.

I can’t help but wonder how this Board would have reacted if Simpson had another 0-Fer and the same line as Davis. I suspect he would have been ripped. I find it curious with two players with similar games, that one is a hero and one became a villain and driven out of town.

Likewise Mags was a cult hero for many of you and got a free ride when he tanked last year. Nothing. But Simpson kid who played with heart and soul…

It’s a message board. Fair topic IMHO.
All good! Go RU!

There is definitely truth in what you say. There is a part of fans being upset because Simpson let them down. So many fans were so bullish on him (there was a poster adamantly pushing back on this) going in to last year and he let them down. He also took more shots than Davis so the "ball hog" tag was worn more.

Also consider this.....I have always said players get 1 1/3 years before fanbases objectively look at players. Late November of the sophomore year is when fans stop giving players "free passes"

 

[FinalFourOrBust]

Neither player is very good and hardly worth the time to compare

 

[RUInsanity]

There is definitely truth in what you say. There is a part of fans being upset because Simpson let them down. So many fans were so bullish on him (there was a poster adamantly pushing back on this) going in to last year and he let them down. He also took more shots than Davis so the "ball hog" tag was worn more.

Also consider this.....I have always said players get 1 1/3 years before fanbases objectively look at players. Late November of the sophomore year is when fans stop giving players "free passes"

Said this before. It's been one game. After one game last season (Princeton loss) the fanbase was up in arms about the entire team, coaching staff and scheduling. Early season mid major wins last season there was not a lot of Simpson callouts. That did not really start happening until around December. GUnit is drawing a false equivalency. Davis is one game in his sophomore season. If he becomes ball centric with a higher volume of inefficient missed shots....the entire forum will be on his case just as with Simpson.

 

[lion1983]

There is definitely truth in what you say. There is a part of fans being upset because Simpson let them down. So many fans were so bullish on him (there was a poster adamantly pushing back on this) going in to last year and he let them down. He also took more shots than Davis so the "ball hog" tag was worn more.

Also consider this.....I have always said players get 1 1/3 years before fanbases objectively look at players. Late November of the sophomore year is when fans stop giving players "free passes"

This is a very good post, FYI.

I was certainly very hopeful on Simpson going into last season - but because of the state of the team, perhaps more "desperately" hopeful.

The problem with the expectations for Simpson were that RU needed him to meet the hopes of fans like me to do well as a team. And he not only fell short, but woefully short. With Spencer leaving in May (which killed), and then Mulcahy leaving in JUNE (really awful), RU needed THREE players to step up in big ways ... it did not have to be Simpson, but he was one of the most likely. RU needed THREE players to up their game, to take a step forward:

1) They needed Omoruyi to step up and improve ... to improve as the NBA'ers told him he had to (develop a bit more of a shot and had to learn how to drive to the basket from the wing). Stats-wise, RU needed Omoruyi to average 13-14 ppg and 10 rpg. HE DID NOT.

2) They needed TWO players to step up as leading scorers ... one to average 13-15 ppg, and another to average 11-12 ppg. The TWO players most likely to be able to do that last season were ... Simpson and Griffiths. IMO Hyatt was never the guy - he has always been a 6th man ... Fernandes was a maybe as a transfer, but at 5'11" and without the athletic or offensive skills of a guy like Jameer Young, for example - or even Jacob Young - seemed unlikely as well. Simpson had showed a flash at the end of his freshman season, in those last 4-6 games, when given the role of "lead" guard, not just PG - and many players do make a substantial leap forward during their sophomore seasons. HE DID NOT STEP UP - in fact, he stepped BACK. And the other player who HAD to step forward to SCORE, at least, was the top 50 player, Gavin Griffiths ... HE ALSO DID NOT STEP UP.

So ... part of the problem for Simpson in the fans' eyes was not merely that he took a step back, but to compound that, he took a step BACK, when the team and the fan's hopes required him to take a step FORWARD and UP. A double whammy.

FYI: I was not advocating for Simpson to transfer - But I knew it was inevitable given the incoming players, and Davis and Williams returning. It was obvious Harper and Williams would start, and that Davis would at least be co-equal to Simpson ... forgetting any incoming potential transfers. And with all due respect for Simpson, Acuff, Derkack and Hayes are all likely better than Simpson, until Simpson proves otherwise at St. Joes.

Pikiell learned from his mistakes of the prior year that left RU short (with Spencer and Mulcahy leaving very late) ... He even gave warning before the season ended: He would basically insist players commit or not ASAP upon the season ending, so as not to get caught short. So ... Simpson had his potential role explained by Pikiell, I suspect - as did Griffiths ... and ... so Pikiell moved forward and on. Rightly so. I like Simpson - and hope he does well - but he was awful last year ... but he had no real role on this year's team.

And I think 1 and 1/3 season is still too short to fully evaluate a player.

BTW, Davis and Simpson were similarly ranked coming out of high school ... but Davis was slightly higher ranked.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

And I think 1 and 1/3 season is still too short to fully evaluate a player.

that is just when the honeymoon usually ends.

 

[thegock]

So ... I thought I'd put this baby to rest, with actual analysis - cuz I have too much time on my hands. Forget that Shelby65 is a troller, speaks of himself or herself in the 3rd person (which is ... well ... quite narcissistic, eh, but obnoxious for sure). Let's just look at Simpson and Davis, side by side ... since in another thread Shelby and a couple of others seem so obsessed with them.

Shelby65 continues to argue, without any basis, evidence or analysis, except for a couple of very cherry-picked stats (like FT%), that Simpson is and was clearly the better player, is way better, etc. Is this actually true, based on the stats? Not even including our eyeballs?

First, let's look in detail at JUST each player's freshman season. Because comparing Simpson's SOPHOMORE season to Davis' FRESHMAN season is not really the proper or fair comparison when one is arguing "body of work" and potential development ... lets look at Apples to Apples. I would also argue that Davis is a purer PG, by style, while Simpson viewed himself and played a style more like a "lead" guard than a pure PG - and tried to model his play after his oft-stated favorite RU player, Baker.

Without NAMING either player at first, here are the stats:

MPG: 23 vs 20
PPG: 5.6 v 7.1
RPG: 3.1 v 1.6
APG: 1.9 v 1.5
TO/G: 1.3 v 0.9
Steals/G: 1.1 v 0.8
Blocks/g: 0.3 v 0.1
Ass/TO Ratio: 1.5 v 1.65
FG%: 37% v 37%
Shot Attempts: 175 v 246
3-point FG%: 22% v 22%
3-point Att: 36 v 60
2-point FG%" 41% v 42.5%
2-point attempts: 139 v 186
eFG%: 39.4% v 40%
FT% (a giveaway): 52% v 79%
FT att: 69 v 58

If you look at Per 40 Minutes, using just the counting stats because the percentages and ratios stay the same:

PPG: 9.7 v 14.2
RPG: 5.4 v 3.2
APG: 3.2 v 2.9
TO/G: 2.2 v 1.8
Steals/G: 2.0 v 1.5
Blocks/g: 0.5 v 0.2

More stats, more random:

1) As a frosh, Simpson had 11 double-digit scoring games, versus Davis having just 7. Davis' were spread out over the course of the season, while Simpson had 5 of his 11 in the last 6 games - 4 in a row at the end ... when he was given 30+ mpg in desperation by Pikiell, desperation for any offense. In those 4 games he shot 39% FG, still just 20% 3-point, but 46% from 2-point FG - but still only a 42% eFG - because he was taking many more 3-pointers (and missing) ... giving many the HOPE he would become a consistent double digit scorer as a sophomore, and could average 12 - 14 ppg. Simpson's assist/TO ratio dropped from 1.65 to 1.25 as he got more touches. I would argue Simpson was playing the role of a "lead guard" style PG not a pure PG.

2) As a freshman, Simpson had 6 games with 3 or more assists, and just 3 games with 4 or more assists. As a freshman, Davis had 11 games with 3 or more assists, and 5 games with 4 or more assists. These stats (from this point, and point #1 right above), support MY analysis that Davis and Simpson played very different roles: Davis as a purer PG, Simpson as a "lead guard" style PG.

3) As a SOPHOMORE, Simpson had a strange season, frankly - besides the obvious of being, literally, the WORST shooter in the NCAA. He DID have several terrific games: He had 11 games where he scored 10 or more points, and 7 games with 14 or more points ... on the other hand, he ALSO had 7 games with 2 or FEWER points, and 11 games with 4 or fewer points ... extremely inconsistent. Either he was able to score, in about 1/3 of the games, or he was completely useless and even damaging, also in about 1/3 of the games. To Simpson's credit, he did have 18 games in which he had 3 or more assists, including 10 with 4 or more assists ... yet he still only averaged 2.9 assists/game ... meaning he had many games with NOTHING], 1 or zero assists (7 overall).

One more thing Shelby criticized Davis for: Saying he was NOT a PG and was too shirt ot be a 2G ... well, Davis is 6'2" (which I agree is too short to be a 2G - though Jameer Young of Maryland and Boo Buie of NW seemed okay at that - but both were great offensive talents). But Simpson is just 6'3" - not all that much a difference.

I think the stats show pretty definitively that when Davis and Simpson were BOTH freshmen, they were extremely similar from an offensive efficiency standpoint (i.e. FG%, 3-point FG, 2-point FG, etc.), though Simpson took many more shot attempts (40% more overall, 66% more 3's and 34% more 2's) ... like MANY more, much less a PG than a shooter mentality - and in 13% FEWER minutes ... i.e. SIMPSON was the "chucker" and shot hog, NOT Davis ... and Davis played more minutes per game, yest took many fewer shots ... EXCEPT FT's: Davis took more FT attempts (i.e. drawing more fouls).

But the stats also show they were very different STYLE players - as pointed out above.

Defensively, Simpson is and was an excellent defensive player - and probably the better help defender (if my eyeballs are any good). But Davis is an elite on-ball defender, quicker, a much better rebounder, created more turnovers (and not just because he had more steals, but also because he created more havoc), and for his size is a very good shot-blocker.

Add to that the simple fact that Simpson was simply an AWFUL shooter last season, his sophomore season ... I give Davis the edge, and the greater upside - though stats-wise we may have to look through the static as they play different styles. I do wish Simpson well at St. Joes - where he will get a chance to improve and maybe be more consistent rather than the odd flashes, as their starting PG. Davis wlll be a reserve for RU because of the roster make-up, but IF ... and I say IF ... he improves his FG% and FT%, will earn minutes this year and lay a groundwork for a potential starting role as pure PG next season, if he stays.

Can u expand on this?

 

[G- RUnit]

Said this before. It's been one game. After one game last season (Princeton loss) the fanbase was up in arms about the entire team, coaching staff and scheduling. Early season mid major wins last season there was not a lot of Simpson callouts. That did not really start happening until around December. GUnit is drawing a false equivalency. Davis is one game in his sophomore season. If he becomes ball centric with a higher volume of inefficient missed shots....the entire forum will be on his case just as with Simpson.

I keep trying to get out and they keep dragging me bag in.

If you’re going to raise a false equivalency argument…smh… who had a better freshman year, Simpson or Davis? We all know the answer. Simpson got heat very quickly last year early on even when he hit a game winning shot to win the game.

Lots of revisionist history. Simpson took heat early and often. False equivalency? SMH & Lol!

 

[zappaa]

Simpson was the better, more dangerous and more likely to get hot offensive player between the two…imo
I don’t think JMike has a huge upside defensively to make up for poor offense like Caleb did.
Simpson single handedly was the difference in several winning efforts

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I keep trying to get out and they keep dragging me bag in.

If you’re going to raise a false equivalency argument…smh… who had a better freshman year, Simpson or Davis? We all know the answer. Simpson got heat very quickly last year early on even when he hit a game winning shot to win the game.

Lots of revisionist history. Simpson took heat early and often. False equivalency? SMH & Lol!

I'll be honest....and I think you look in the past threads I said so.

I'd rather have JaMike after both of their freshman seasons.

It's almost like saying who is better Joey Gallo or a competent backup catcher. I'll take the competent backup catcher that knows his role is to play 45 games and do a good job as a defensive catcher. Simpson is like the corner OF that will hit .210 and strikeout a bunch and hit 35 HRs. Maybe he is needed on some teams in some spots, but when you are building a decent team he has absolutely no use.

 

[Shelby65]

Simpson was the better, more dangerous and more likely to get hot offensive player between the two…imo
I don’t think JMike has a huge upside defensively to make up for poor offense like Caleb did.
Simpson single handedly was the difference in several winning efforts

Exactly. Simpson better offense and comparable defense. Where he fell short compared to Davis was in not having arguably the top recruit in the country as his good friend.

 

[PiscatawayMike]

that is just when the honeymoon usually ends.

For the most part, I agree. I gave up on Simpson after the Mississippi State game at The Rock last year. He shot 4-of-13. He was horrid (not as horrid as Cliff, though). If Simpson and Cliff had average games, we would have won. That game put me in such a sour mood. Following the game, I immediately felt the season was gonna be a long one. Unfortunately, my inkling was on the money.

 

[Shelby65]

IIRC Cliff was dominated by the MSU center. Shelby doesn’t recall Simpson being a major reason.

 

[PiscatawayMike]

IIRC Cliff was dominated by the MSU center. Shelby doesn’t recall Simpson being a major reason.

Their BACK-UP center! Jimmy Bell Jr. had 17 pts and 18 rebs. Cliff had 3 pts, 0 rebs, and fouled out in 20 minutes.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

For the most part, I agree. I gave up on Simpson after the Mississippi State game at The Rock last year. He shot 4-of-13. He was horrid (not as horrid as Cliff, though). If Simpson and Cliff had average games, we would have won. That game put me in such a sour mood. Following the game, I immediately felt the season was gonna be a long one. Unfortunately, my inkling was on the money.

.....until JWill came back and gave us life......and then we were let down for the 2nd time. I started to see a path.

 

[Scangg]

.....until JWill came back and gave us life......and then we were let down for the 2nd time. I started to see a path.

Yeaaa that JWill run with Mag back was fun and gave some hope before it all fell apart even worse

 

[Scangg]

Agree to disagree.

In fairness this Board was also relentless all season long against Simpson.

I’m not going to apologize for defending a player who hustled, gave 100 effort, played great D even when his offense suffered and won us games over two years, indeed he won us games as a freshman and a sophomore.

I can’t help but wonder how this Board would have reacted if Simpson had another 0-Fer and the same line as Davis. I suspect he would have been ripped. I find it curious with two players with similar games, that one is a hero and one became a villain and driven out of town.

Likewise Mags was a cult hero for many of you and got a free ride when he tanked last year. Nothing. But Simpson kid who played with heart and soul…

It’s a message board. Fair topic IMHO.
All good! Go RU!

Not sure where you were last year, but Mag got absolutely blasted on the board after he sat out

 

[RutgersClassof2004]

So ... I thought I'd put this baby to rest, with actual analysis - cuz I have too much time on my hands. Forget that Shelby65 is a troller, speaks of himself or herself in the 3rd person (which is ... well ... quite narcissistic, eh, but obnoxious for sure). Let's just look at Simpson and Davis, side by side ... since in another thread Shelby and a couple of others seem so obsessed with them.

Shelby65 continues to argue, without any basis, evidence or analysis, except for a couple of very cherry-picked stats (like FT%), that Simpson is and was clearly the better player, is way better, etc. Is this actually true, based on the stats? Not even including our eyeballs?

First, let's look in detail at JUST each player's freshman season. Because comparing Simpson's SOPHOMORE season to Davis' FRESHMAN season is not really the proper or fair comparison when one is arguing "body of work" and potential development ... lets look at Apples to Apples. I would also argue that Davis is a purer PG, by style, while Simpson viewed himself and played a style more like a "lead" guard than a pure PG - and tried to model his play after his oft-stated favorite RU player, Baker.

Without NAMING either player at first, here are the stats:

MPG: 23 vs 20
PPG: 5.6 v 7.1
RPG: 3.1 v 1.6
APG: 1.9 v 1.5
TO/G: 1.3 v 0.9
Steals/G: 1.1 v 0.8
Blocks/g: 0.3 v 0.1
Ass/TO Ratio: 1.5 v 1.65
FG%: 37% v 37%
Shot Attempts: 175 v 246
3-point FG%: 22% v 22%
3-point Att: 36 v 60
2-point FG%" 41% v 42.5%
2-point attempts: 139 v 186
eFG%: 39.4% v 40%
FT% (a giveaway): 52% v 79%
FT att: 69 v 58

If you look at Per 40 Minutes, using just the counting stats because the percentages and ratios stay the same:

PPG: 9.7 v 14.2
RPG: 5.4 v 3.2
APG: 3.2 v 2.9
TO/G: 2.2 v 1.8
Steals/G: 2.0 v 1.5
Blocks/g: 0.5 v 0.2

More stats, more random:

1) As a frosh, Simpson had 11 double-digit scoring games, versus Davis having just 7. Davis' were spread out over the course of the season, while Simpson had 5 of his 11 in the last 6 games - 4 in a row at the end ... when he was given 30+ mpg in desperation by Pikiell, desperation for any offense. In those 4 games he shot 39% FG, still just 20% 3-point, but 46% from 2-point FG - but still only a 42% eFG - because he was taking many more 3-pointers (and missing) ... giving many the HOPE he would become a consistent double digit scorer as a sophomore, and could average 12 - 14 ppg. Simpson's assist/TO ratio dropped from 1.65 to 1.25 as he got more touches. I would argue Simpson was playing the role of a "lead guard" style PG not a pure PG.

2) As a freshman, Simpson had 6 games with 3 or more assists, and just 3 games with 4 or more assists. As a freshman, Davis had 11 games with 3 or more assists, and 5 games with 4 or more assists. These stats (from this point, and point #1 right above), support MY analysis that Davis and Simpson played very different roles: Davis as a purer PG, Simpson as a "lead guard" style PG.

3) As a SOPHOMORE, Simpson had a strange season, frankly - besides the obvious of being, literally, the WORST shooter in the NCAA. He DID have several terrific games: He had 11 games where he scored 10 or more points, and 7 games with 14 or more points ... on the other hand, he ALSO had 7 games with 2 or FEWER points, and 11 games with 4 or fewer points ... extremely inconsistent. Either he was able to score, in about 1/3 of the games, or he was completely useless and even damaging, also in about 1/3 of the games. To Simpson's credit, he did have 18 games in which he had 3 or more assists, including 10 with 4 or more assists ... yet he still only averaged 2.9 assists/game ... meaning he had many games with NOTHING], 1 or zero assists (7 overall).

One more thing Shelby criticized Davis for: Saying he was NOT a PG and was too shirt ot be a 2G ... well, Davis is 6'2" (which I agree is too short to be a 2G - though Jameer Young of Maryland and Boo Buie of NW seemed okay at that - but both were great offensive talents). But Simpson is just 6'3" - not all that much a difference.

I think the stats show pretty definitively that when Davis and Simpson were BOTH freshmen, they were extremely similar from an offensive efficiency standpoint (i.e. FG%, 3-point FG, 2-point FG, etc.), though Simpson took many more shot attempts (40% more overall, 66% more 3's and 34% more 2's) ... like MANY more, much less a PG than a shooter mentality - and in 13% FEWER minutes ... i.e. SIMPSON was the "chucker" and shot hog, NOT Davis ... and Davis played more minutes per game, yest took many fewer shots ... EXCEPT FT's: Davis took more FT attempts (i.e. drawing more fouls).

But the stats also show they were very different STYLE players - as pointed out above.

Defensively, Simpson is and was an excellent defensive player - and probably the better help defender (if my eyeballs are any good). But Davis is an elite on-ball defender, quicker, a much better rebounder, created more turnovers (and not just because he had more steals, but also because he created more havoc), and for his size is a very good shot-blocker.

Add to that the simple fact that Simpson was simply an AWFUL shooter last season, his sophomore season ... I give Davis the edge, and the greater upside - though stats-wise we may have to look through the static as they play different styles. I do wish Simpson well at St. Joes - where he will get a chance to improve and maybe be more consistent rather than the odd flashes, as their starting PG. Davis wlll be a reserve for RU because of the roster make-up, but IF ... and I say IF ... he improves his FG% and FT%, will earn minutes this year and lay a groundwork for a potential starting role as pure PG next season, if he stays.

Neither particularly great. Davis probably more potential. Not really worth this much effort debating.

 

[High Quality H2O]

Really it can be boiled down to something as simple as there was no need for two of this archetype, and JMike was the younger one and friends with Ace. Derek had his chance to take his leap and failed. He played pretty good D last year but there was always a ceiling how effective he could be on that end due to his skinniness. JMike has a stronger build and was already stellar defensively as a freshman, something Derek was not. Also, even though not really backed up by stats yet but I just feel more comfortable out there with JMike, at least he showcases touch on layups and in the intrasquad scrimmage showcased a floater that I hope to see more of. Then the last thing is it seems people really gravitate towards JMike, where people seemed to not have much respect for Derek last year. Ultimately, JMike had the right connections and more willing to play the current role asked than Derek would have and he at least has a bit of upside to improve

I’m somewhere between here and what Lion and Greene were saying. Loved Derek hated that it didn’t work out and yea the role we were asking each of them to play as a sophomore are vastly different.

And as far as this years team goes to me it’s less Derek vs JMike argument it’s more Simpson replacement vs Simpson Staying. It’s actually Derek vs…..Derkack.

I’m going to move on to the next thread and then get ready to punch myself in the face the next time this argument comes up again.

 

[GRU23]

I’m somewhere between here and what Lion and Greene were saying. Loved Derek hated that it didn’t work out and yea the role we were asking each of them to play as a sophomore are vastly different.

And as far as this years team goes to me it’s less Derek vs JMike argument it’s more Simpson replacement vs Simpson Staying. It’s actually Derek vs…..Derkack.

I’m going to move on to the next thread and then get ready to punch myself in the face the next time this argument comes up again.

I’d argue Derkack provides something different as he has legitimate side and can provide true rebounding, wing defense. Maybe you could argue it’s actually Acuff you could argue against

 

[fluoxetine]

lol, before I learned my lesson about Shelby i had like a 40 post argument with him about some statistical concept he did not understand while he repeatedly called me an idiot and tried to gaslight me into thinking I didn’t know what I was talking about (I did. He was very wrong)

G r unit basically caused 90% of the Simpson bashing on the board last year with his incessant posts as demonstrated above. Most posters here I think like Simpson and hope he does well but those posts get so annoying and it’s very hard not to reply with the obvious negatives about Simpson’s play

 

[Shelby65]

lol, before I learned my lesson about Shelby i had like a 40 post argument with him about some statistical concept he did not understand while he repeatedly called me an idiot and tried to gaslight me into thinking I didn’t know what I was talking about (I did. He was very wrong)

G r unit basically caused 90% of the Simpson bashing on the board last year with his incessant posts as demonstrated above. Most posters here I think like Simpson and hope he does well but those posts get so annoying and it’s very hard not to reply with the obvious negatives about Simpson’s play

So easy to flat out lie, huh ? Same psychosis as the president-elect. 40 post argument ? LOL. You were proven wrong in the second post.

 

[High Quality H2O]

I’d argue Derkack provides something different as he has legitimate side and can provide true rebounding, wing defense. Maybe you could argue it’s actually Acuff you could argue against

Maybe so, my point was to compare him vs a player that replaced him on the roster at the Guard position vs a player he played along with. Just chose the guy with the alliterative name for fun.

 

[fluoxetine]

So easy to flat out lie, huh ? Same psychosis as the president-elect. 40 post argument ? LOL. You were proven wrong in the second post.

See back then you were a much more subtle troll. Now it’s getting kinda desperate. Talking in the third person, bringing up politics unprompted. Sad.

 

[Scangg]

lol, before I learned my lesson about Shelby i had like a 40 post argument with him about some statistical concept he did not understand while he repeatedly called me an idiot and tried to gaslight me into thinking I didn’t know what I was talking about (I did. He was very wrong)

G r unit basically caused 90% of the Simpson bashing on the board last year with his incessant posts as demonstrated above. Most posters here I think like Simpson and hope he does well but those posts get so annoying and it’s very hard not to reply with the obvious negatives about Simpson’s play

Yeaaa I told him that at one point. He was actually the reason for most of the negative posts about Simpson where people were showing stats about just how historically inefficient he was in response to his posts

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

This is such a silly thread at this point. Whatever Simpson does well at St Joes is meaningless in terms of how he would’ve fit in at RU as part of an offense where his usage would’ve been sliced by around 75%. We’ll never know how he would’ve meshed in a completely different role at Rutgers but nothing about his ball distribution skills or shooting in his first 2 years lends itself to believe he would’ve thrived in the complementary role we were looking for. As others have said - it’s not really Davis vs Simpson but rather the new pieces that were brought in to replace Simpson. Davis is good friends with Ace and was always going to be a part of this season. Hayes is a better fit for what we need. Jordan is also bigger and stronger. Better fit too. Acuff is working his way back from injury so I don’t have a sense of what his role will be.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Don't know exactly how the usage stats are calculated, but I know they add to 100%. Dylan thru 2 games is at 35.7%....maybe when Ace plays Dylan drops to 30%, but Ace will be about 25% or higher....that leaves very little for the 3 remaining players on the court. He would either "be in the way" taking touches away from others OR provide a role just like JaMike and Dercack play and Jwill to a lesser extent.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Don't know exactly how the usage stats are calculated, but I know they add to 100%. Dylan thru 2 games is at 35.7%....maybe when Ace plays Dylan drops to 30%, but Ace will be about 25% or higher....that leaves very little for the 3 remaining players on the court. He would either "be in the way" taking touches away from others OR provide a role just like JaMike and Dercack play and Jwill to a lesser extent.

Exactly. And the bottom line is he’s not that type of player - he’s the kind of kid who wants the ball in his hands. I don’t mean that in a bad way. Davis is kind of that way too but he’s playing with his buddy and has 2 more years after this to be a go to player. It’s different. He also wasn’t ever the “center” of our offense.

 

[Shelby65]

Don't know exactly how the usage stats are calculated, but I know they add to 100%. Dylan thru 2 games is at 35.7%....maybe when Ace plays Dylan drops to 30%, but Ace will be about 25% or higher....that leaves very little for the 3 remaining players on the court. He would either "be in the way" taking touches away from others OR provide a role just like JaMike and Dercack play and Jwill to a lesser extent.

That usage analysis is only when Ace and Dylan are on the court at the same time.

For example, if neither are on the court (hypothetical) then the usage of the five who are also adds to 100% during that stretch.

Or, if just 1 is on the court, usage of the other 4 will increase.