Social Mobility (continued from China thread)

Discussion in 'Current Events, Politics and Off Topic Banter' started by RUDiddy777, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. RUDiddy777

    RUDiddy777 All American
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    @GoodOl'Rutgers

    We can chat about this here.

    Your view - the 1% are there because they worked harder or are more talented. It’s not fair to ask them to pay more. I’ll let you make your argument.

    My view - some of the 1% are there because they worked hard or are more talented. Many more are there because their parents were in the 1%. I also think many of the top .1% just ain’t that talented. Did Don Jr. (or Sr) or Paris Hilton or other mediocre children of the super wealthy demonstrate that they did anything other than being born to the right parents?

    To be honest, I think we’re both probably referring to the top .1% - so I don’t want to change the terms of the argument. As I don’t consider the top 1% to be all that insanely well off (AGI ~450k) and they’re certainly not buying big yachts to transport their little yachts.
     
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  2. RUDiddy777

    RUDiddy777 All American
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  3. bac2therac

    bac2therac Legend
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    so they inherited their wealth...so why would you want to take it away from them...it was the legacy of their family, is not yours or the governments money
     
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  4. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    About 80% of millionaires and 60-65% of billionaires are self-made.

    I support a flat income tax. If someone makes 10 times more than you, that person pays 10 times more in taxes. This is as fair as fair gets. Everyone is treated equally.
     
  5. RUDiddy777

    RUDiddy777 All American
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    Show your work. Is there any analysis that supports your assertion ”About 80% of millionaires and 60-65% of billionaires are self-made.”
     
  6. RUDiddy777

    RUDiddy777 All American
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    So you prefer aristocracy to meritocracy?
     
  7. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    It's called Google professor. Not that hard or tricky.
     
  8. RU_Planning

    RU_Planning Heisman Winner
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    What percentage of their income do low and moderate income folks pay for health care or housing compared to the millionaires and billionaires?
     
  9. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    There should be no estate/death tax. That money was already taxed. Don't penalize parents for being successful.
     
  10. bac2therac

    bac2therac Legend
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    I believe in the government keeping their stinky filthy paws off of money that isnt there...

    do you believe in stealing from the rich to feed the underserving poor..aw
     
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  11. bac2therac

    bac2therac Legend
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    zero or under $100
     
  12. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    I would be kind and say exempt the first $20k for singles and $40k for families, but afterwards, just one consistent tax rate for everyone.
     
  13. rutgersdave

    rutgersdave Heisman Winner
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    There basically isn’t an estate tax anymore but the really rich $11.8 million. I would think you would have given the kid $4-5 million on top of the 11.8 million before you died.
     
  14. rutgersdave

    rutgersdave Heisman Winner
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    Your business, you probably don’t report half your real income. You act like you won’t take social security for your retirement or Medicare.
     
  15. rutgersdave

    rutgersdave Heisman Winner
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    That’s about right. If you’re in management at a Fortune 100 company in the right industry for 15-25 years, and you save and invest wisely, most managers will be millionaires by 60.
     
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  16. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    It's not for you or the government to decide how much parents leave for their kids, they earned it, paid taxes on it, and deserve to do whatever they want with it.

    Remember, the true measure of success is multi-generational, and that should be embraced.
     
  17. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    Some before 40.
    :)
     
  18. Harambe_be_my_qb

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    All money is taxed multiple times. It happens when it is transferred from entity to another. Inheritance is income for the offspring for another person. The tax is on the income that the living person gets.

    You actually belive that if Kim is born to a family with great wealth and Shannon is born into a family with no wealth that in addition to all three advantages Kim will have in health care, education, and all the other factors that wealth can provide a child, that she should be exempt from having millions of dollars of income taxed. Meanwhile where is your equivalent advocacy for Shannon? If she earns the same amount in her lifetime which actually will have to come from work she will end up with less money.

    You believe in a system that gives extra benefit to people based on who their parents are. That is the opposite of equality.
     
  19. ruhudsonfan

    ruhudsonfan Hall of Famer
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    80% of millionaires are self-made is stupid inside this conversation

    If you are 60+ in New Jersey, your house is paid off and even made modest contributions to your 401k, you are, by definition, a millionaire.

    You could still find yourself eating catfood in your 80s
     
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  20. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    I believe in the family and that true success is multi-generational. As the story goes, my grandparents had very little but worked to get my parents into college and have a solid middle class life, my parents worked so my sister and I can grow up in great town, neighborhood, and public school and succeed beyond them. My wife and I are working hard to give our daughter the best education possible (private) and allow her to reach her potential in what she is destined for.

    Success is built generation by generation. Everyone can do better than their parents and leave for their children a little more.
     
  21. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    As Chris Rock say, there is a difference between being rich and being wealthy! Rich can be temporary if you do stupid things.

    I always think about net worth and being a "millionaire" via assets not including home equity, especially at younger ages. It's not something you can really tap into.
     
  22. ruhudsonfan

    ruhudsonfan Hall of Famer
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    Fair distinction

    To reinforce the point, my mom is a lifelong educator. She owns her own home in north Jersey that is paid for. She's maxed out all retirement options for the last 20 years. She is a "millionaire" having never made more than $120k from her primary job.

    She certainly doesn't have eff you money. She is retiring end of this year. Assuming her pension and health care don't get blown up, she will live comfortably as a "multi-millionaire." But not have life changing assets--for her or her estate.
     
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  23. NorthernKnight

    NorthernKnight Hall of Famer
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    I think Hudson is correct and that this whole discussion fails until we decide what is "wealth".

    We should take a crack at it. I know it depends a lot on where you live, but I'd suggest that a net worth (note it's net worth not assets) of $5 million (real, tangible, not fluff) should be considered the floor of the "wealthy" for this discussion.

    And that's even subjective. $5 million puts you in a really top place in 3/4s of the states. In NJ, NY, Cali its strong but not in that top secure level.

    Income is interesting, but not necessarily the most relevant factor when we are talking about being born on third base.

    And I like the study posted...it really supports my thoughts on intellectual privilege.
     
    23 NorthernKnight, Apr 7, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  24. brianoc

    brianoc Heisman Winner
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    I would modify that a bit by setting some basic amount not subject to tax at all and everything over that basic amount would be subject to the flat rate.

    You could set the basic non-taxable amount at say minimum wage x 40 x 52- so a full time minimum wage salary is not subject above that you pay the flat rate.

    It has to be higher than 10% though. The other issue is how do you count the social security tax paid is that included in the flat amount, Because if that is not counted you need to take the cap of of the taxable amount of social security wages also.
     
  25. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    A million dollars is definitely not eff you money in NJ, but it is in many, many other states. I would say, to retire with no worries in NJ, three million is probably the threshold. That's a much higher bar and likely unachievable to most with main street type of jobs.
     
  26. brianoc

    brianoc Heisman Winner
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    Missed this

    Agree
     
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  27. ruhudsonfan

    ruhudsonfan Hall of Famer
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    I've spent considerable time in several other states.

    A million in liquid assets (non housing) doesn't guarantee smooth sailing in you have 20+ years of life left.
     
  28. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    Well, it should if you are not doing stupid things (e.g., no bookers and blow). Million in none house assets and SS? That should be pretty stable for most.
     
  29. Harambe_be_my_qb

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    So you want to have a system that makes it easier on your family and more difficult for families that are currently in the position as your family was in your grandparents generation. This self interest explains many societal ills.

    You would probably like a system that doesn't have public education. The well to do families can afford to educate their children and the poor people will just have to be educated for a few generations until they bootstrap themselves.

    You dodged responding on the inheritance tax point because you support an injust system. Bringing in your grandparents and talking about generations doesn't diffuse the fact that you hold a pernicious belief those who are already wealthy should have an easier go of things than those who are not born into it.

    You are also ignoring the fact that you're grandparents were likely able to succeed because they benefitted from a society that had more progressive taxation that helped make their social mobility more probable.

    If we look at our university many on this board were able to go to Rutgers when it was well funded by the state. They brag about how they paid for courses with summer work in the sixties and seventies and early eighties. Then they stood by as the relative cost at Rutgers skyrocketed to the point where there is no way to pay for it on your own.

    Not only were you born on third base but you want to move fences back hundreds of feet so that anyone who comes after you has to be ten times as good to make it twice as far.
     
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  30. brianoc

    brianoc Heisman Winner
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    T you should correct him. You did not attend an affordable Rutgers you attended a free Rutgers
     
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  31. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    You are really all over the map with this reply. Bottom line, get married, stay married, have kids, value education. By doing this, you will ensure that your kids have a better life than you and hopefully they will provide a better life for your grandkids. It's a simple concept and something many first generation immigrants are kicking butt with and succeeding very quickly.

    You can't solely view an individual outside of the family unit. Society doesn't work this way and we shouldn't try.
     
  32. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    Not exactly true. I paid for board, books, and grad school (MBA). If you sum up everything, I covered about 3/4 of RU.

    Sorry to mess up your narrative! :)
     
  33. rutgersdave

    rutgersdave Heisman Winner
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    I actually agree with T2K. His family situation is similar to mine except my father was an immigrant as a kid. I think the federal estate tax at $11.8 million is good because you are rich if you’re at this level. The next generation with start with at least 2 to 5 millions, my inheritance will be close to .5 million but there were 5 kids.

    In terms of education, everyone can attend a decent school in NJ by commuting to school instead of living on campus. Tuition and other fees are $15k at Montclair State, a decent school and with grants may be lower. Graduating with 30-40k loan is reasonable. Too many kids think they have the right to go to whatever school no matter the cost.
     
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  34. brianoc

    brianoc Heisman Winner
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    No one is referencing grad school.

    He posted about undergrad.

    East Brunswick to Rutgers does not require board. A kid with money issues commutes
     
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  35. Upstream

    Upstream Hall of Famer
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    OK. You favor a progressive tax with 2 tax brackets:
    0% tax on first $15,000 income
    20% tax on income above $15,000

    But the person earning $20,000 is going to struggle more to pay that 20% more than someone earning $100,000. So maybe it would be more fair to have 3 tax brackets, for example:

    0% on $0-$15,000
    15% on $15,000-$80,000
    20% on $80,000+
     
  36. rutgersdave

    rutgersdave Heisman Winner
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    I want to go back to the 50% and even the 70% before the Reagan tax cuts. I want to try to balance the budget and it’s not only cutting expenses.
     
  37. brianoc

    brianoc Heisman Winner
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    Lower income people will always struggle more than the wealthy

    What we need to do is support some basic services that provide a process for a decent quality of life. For me public education, health care, protection of the environment and transportation to employment markets.
     
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  38. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    Perhaps my new signature?
    :)
     
  39. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    Also, every kid in NJ can get into RU. Go to a CC for a year or two, get good grades and you are essentially guaranteed a transfer spot. RU is a great degree and will never limit your career in any way.
     
  40. T2Kplus10

    T2Kplus10 Heisman Winner
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    The government already does that all (to the best of its ability, which is limited).
     

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