Some newbie lax questions

[ClassOf02]

I'm new to following lacrosse and so far find it pretty damn captivating. Curious about a few things though and would love some input from those with more expertise (@Caliknight).

1. Shot clock. Why is this at the discretion of the refs, and what's the strategy as to when they start it? Is their leash shorter in the 4th quarter than earlier in the game? Seems obvious to me there should be a set shot clock that starts once a team gains the offensive zone (sorry if my terminology is off). For the lax experts, do you agree to make the shot clock a more objective rule? If so, what time would you choose to put on the shot clock?

2. Faceoffs. What makes a good face off guy? What skills are needed? Is this their only job? Are there different strategies to employ on the face off? In the games I've watched, FOs seem to be a massive factor in momentum changes. It would be interesting to know how much time coaches spend on this aspect of the game.

3. Penalties. Are there only 30 & 60 second penalties, or are there more egregious penalties that can be called?

Thanks...really cool sport and I'll be tuned in against OSU (and a bunch of other games this year, I hope).

 

[Caliknight]

1) Your question is one I ask myself all of the time. It's silly. There should simply be a shot clock that isn't at the discretion of the referees. The fact there isn't is the stupidest thing in all of sports. I think 90 seconds is a fair shot clock. It's enough time for slow down teams to work their offense without being forced to play fast, while rewarding good team defense. It should reset only if a shot hits the goalie, and should start as soon as one team takes possession. I'd like to see a 2 point shot added, so that teams don't just sit in a zone. Much like hoops did with the 3 point line.

2) Coaches spend a lot time on faceoffs. It's always been specialized, but never more than now. It's the only sport I know of that after you score, you get an opportunity to get the ball back right away. It's one of the reason lacrosse, more than any other sport, is prone to runs. It's very much a game of runs. One coach is dedicated to it (and usually goalies) and teams strategize around it. Good face offs guys have very fast hands, are strong, and are animals on groundballs, and are tough as nails. Wrestlers seem to do well in the position. Good face off guys are those things, and very skilled. It's super specialized, and that is pretty much all they do. It's like a kicker on a football team, only these guys are super respected They are probably the toughest guys on the team. Faceoffs are very much about match ups. Quite often, one guy won't do very well against another guy, who does well against another guy, that the first guy doesn't. That is getting really technical, which it is, and not something I am overly knowledgeable about beyond this. It's a sport within the sport. If you saw a D1 practice, like football kickers, they are off practicing their craft more often than not. Again, they are very respected though, unlike kickers.

3) There are others, but those are the main ones. If you get caught using an illegal stick, I believe it is a 3 minute non releasable.

It's a great sport, and fun to play. It encompasses the best of other sports, imo. If you like basketball, you would love lacrosse from a strategy perspective. Throw in the physicality of football, and speed and running of soccer, and it's just a great game.

 

[rbled]

I'm new to following lacrosse and so far find it pretty damn captivating. Curious about a few things though and would love some input from those with more expertise (@Caliknight).

1. Shot clock. Why is this at the discretion of the refs, and what's the strategy as to when they start it? Is their leash shorter in the 4th quarter than earlier in the game? Seems obvious to me there should be a set shot clock that starts once a team gains the offensive zone (sorry if my terminology is off). For the lax experts, do you agree to make the shot clock a more objective rule? If so, what time would you choose to put on the shot clock?

2. Faceoffs. What makes a good face off guy? What skills are needed? Is this their only job? Are there different strategies to employ on the face off? In the games I've watched, FOs seem to be a massive factor in momentum changes. It would be interesting to know how much time coaches spend on this aspect of the game.

3. Penalties. Are there only 30 & 60 second penalties, or are there more egregious penalties that can be called?

Thanks...really cool sport and I'll be tuned in against OSU (and a bunch of other games this year, I hope).

Not Cali, obv but I think I can answer your questions.

1. Yes, the shot clock is at the discretion of the refs. Essentially the ref believes the offense is not attempting to attack the goal, they will call a stall warning which will start a 30 sec shot clock. The offense must take a shot that either hits the pipe or the goalie before the 30 second clock runs out or the ball gets turned over to the other team. Refs definitely are much quicker to call stall warnings towards the end of games. I believe this rule, which was put in place about 3-4 seasons ago is an interim step leading to a full time shot clock. I think most that follow the game agree that this is inevitable and necessary.

2. Generally speaking a good FO guy is compact, flexible,fast twitch with outstanding reaction time. Wrestlers often make go FO guys. They are also usually relentless ground ball guys, which is really all about getting low and effort. Faceoff specialists were commonly called FOGOs (Face Off / Get Off) which is something many still do but this is now considered somewhat of a derogatory term. Having a FO guy that is an offensive threat and/or a good defender is a huge advantage. There are usually a couple of times per game where either the FO guy wins cleanly and start a fast break or gets stuck on the defensive side of the field after losing a FO. It is a huge advantage if they are a scoring threat when they win clean or not a liability on defense. This is a hugely important aspect of the game and IMO coaches do not spend nearly enough time on all aspects of the face off -- from the X to wing play.

3. The majority of penalties are either :30 or 1:00. Most are released when the opposing team scores, but certain penalties like unsportsmanlike conduct can be full time, meaning the team with the man advantage maintains the advantage for the full time of the penalty regardless of how many goals are scored during the penalty. There are certain penalties that can get up to 3 minutes and are generally non-releasable but they are rare. Generally they are related to unsportsmanlike conduct, intentional hits to the head or against defenseless players or illegal equipment.

Enjoy! There is some nuance but it is generally an easy game to follow once you understand the basics. And this team is easy to root for as they play a very aggressive, attacking style that is as fun to watch as it is to play. And this program is just scratching the surface. We have only just begun to match our peers in terms of scholarship funding. We are currently pretty far behind in terms of facilities, but that is about to change as well. We are a sleeping giant in lax as much or more so than any other sport. NJ lax is good and getting better, however we are within a 3-4 hour drive of every major traditional hotbed areas (LI, upstate NY, MD) and Coach Brecht has made excellent in roads in some non-traditional areas where there is loads of untapped talent (UT, TX). If you look at the geographic spread of our roster, it is very much intentional and will ensure we continue to reload with top talent. And as we continue to win, spend time in the rankings and build out our facilities, we will have top HS kids begging to come here.But we need money to make all of this happen, so continue to attend games, buy hot dogs and DONATE!

 

[rbled]

Shit, Cali beat me to it. What he said!

 

[Caliknight]

What you said too. Listen to rbled. He knows what he is talking about.

 

[ClassOf02]

Cool really awesome info. Thanks guys!

 

[bigmatt718]

Philly is also a lax hotbed. I could see South Jersey as an up and comer as well once the youth leagues get better and those kids grow into middle school/high school players. I'm hoping to volunteer/assistant coach for youth lacrosse in South Jersey, and I'm going to emphasize to parents that their kids play other sports like football, basketball, hockey, soccer, wrestling, etc in the off-season as many of the skills acquired in those sports can be translated to lax. Football/basketball players make terrific attackman/defenders, hockey/soccer players make good middies/goalies, and wrestlers make good FO guys.

 

[gef21]

Philly is also a lax hotbed. I could see South Jersey as an up and comer as well once the youth leagues get better and those kids grow into middle school/high school players. I'm hoping to volunteer/assistant coach for youth lacrosse in South Jersey, and I'm going to emphasize to parents that their kids play other sports like football, basketball, hockey, soccer, wrestling, etc in the off-season as many of the skills acquired in those sports can be translated to lax. Football/basketball players make terrific attackman/defenders, hockey/soccer players make good middies/goalies, and wrestlers make good FO guys.

The best players are multi sport athletes and play for club teams in the summer. The kids on my team are mostly football/soccer players and they all play spring lax at school, summer, a tournament or two in the fall, and winter ball.

 

[bigmatt718]

The best players are multi sport athletes and play for club teams in the summer. The kids on my team are mostly football/soccer players and they all play spring lax at school, summer, a tournament or two in the fall, and winter ball.

Definitely sounds right. Lax in the spring/summer, football/soccer in the fall, basketball/ice hockey/wrestling in the winter.

 

[Caliknight]

Playing the game, you could always see the guys that excelled in other sports, and how that translated to lacrosse.

Hockey guys- great hands, crafty and physical around the crease and able to absorb contact very well.

Football- physical. Not shy of contact. Athletic.

Wrestlers- ground ball machines, also physical.

Basketball- athletic, understood defensive and offensive concepts very well.

Soccer- usually fast and could run, had an understanding of space that seemed different.

 

[NJ_CO_RU]

As a follow up top the shot clock question. It's only a matter of time before the shot clock is taken out of the ref's hands. The ref's I talk to hate the discretionary aspect. How it will instituted, and the duration are the debates. For example, should it start after a goalie save/turnover in the defensive zone or when the ball crosses midfield? When this happens, dunno. How this would be enforced at high school levels...dunno

Other rule changes open to debate:

Decreasing the size of the substitution box to 10 yards from 20. In theory, this will take away a timing advantage for the defense (subbing on one end of the box and releasing on the other). I doubt this happens.

Bringing back the crease dive! Way back when, you could leave your feet on a scoring attempt and land in the crease. If the ball went in (without the offensive player hitting the goalie) before the players feet/body hit the ground, the goal counted. If you landed before the ball went in, change of possession. There is some talk of this potentially coming back but again, goalie safety is the issue. I would argue the diving player was generally the guy that got hurt, not the goalie. Personally, I think they should bring this back but maybe give the opposing team a free clear if the attempt fails (just a thought). It's a super exciting play.

The rules committee is fairly progressive so I am optimistic something will be done on the shot clock. I get they want to move slowly so they don't make a joke of the game.

 

[koleszar]

Playing the game, you could always see the guys that excelled in other sports, and how that translated to lacrosse.

Hockey guys- great hands, crafty and physical around the crease and able to absorb contact very well.

Football- physical. Not shy of contact. Athletic.

Wrestlers- ground ball machines, also physical.

Basketball- athletic, understood defensive and offensive concepts very well.

Soccer- usually fast and could run, had an understanding of space that seemed different.

and Skiing as well:)

 

[rufamily]

I'm new to following lacrosse and so far find it pretty damn captivating. Curious about a few things though and would love some input from those with more expertise (@Caliknight).

1. Shot clock. Why is this at the discretion of the refs, and what's the strategy as to when they start it? Is their leash shorter in the 4th quarter than earlier in the game? Seems obvious to me there should be a set shot clock that starts once a team gains the offensive zone (sorry if my terminology is off). For the lax experts, do you agree to make the shot clock a more objective rule? If so, what time would you choose to put on the shot clock?

2. Faceoffs. What makes a good face off guy? What skills are needed? Is this their only job? Are there different strategies to employ on the face off? In the games I've watched, FOs seem to be a massive factor in momentum changes. It would be interesting to know how much time coaches spend on this aspect of the game.

3. Penalties. Are there only 30 & 60 second penalties, or are there more egregious penalties that can be called?

Thanks...really cool sport and I'll be tuned in against OSU (and a bunch of other games this year, I hope).

1. the sot clock will eventually become fixed at either 60 or 90 seconds.

2. face-off guys are a breed apart, and their are several ways to win face off's a couple of years ago the trend went to moto grip one knee guys and they are very effective. If you are a good face-off guy you have multiple moves and counters. Pinch and pop is the most popular but that can be countered by a fish hook. you can clamp, jump and laser the ball. I love wrestlers as face off guys as they love to scrap and are tough as crap. Really good ones can handle and shoot. we use a guy who face's off and then stays on a plays but a lot of teams utilize a FOGO.

3. Technical fouls are normally possession penalties ( if the team with the ball causes the foul they lose the ball , if the defending team is penalized it would be a 30 second foul unless the offensive team scores then the foul is wiped out.) A personal foul is at least 60 seconds and personal fouls to the head can be anywhere from 1 minute to 3 minutes and the can be full time serving penalties. ( penalties in general end with a goal being scored). Your stick can be illegal as well and you can get 1 to 3 minutes for a stick foul.

Multi sport athletes are great from every sport but, we are seeing fewer and fewer of them and club teams and fall tournament invaded the fall. Philly is an excellent area for lacrosse and south Jersey is getting better as both the Olympic and shore conference have good teams their. There is probably a little more depth of team in south Jersey outside of Philly but they are both getting better.

 

[bigmatt718]

Boston U did RU a favor tonight by defeating Bucknell. That all but eliminates them.

 

[biazza38]

Can anyone explain how the RPI is calculated and why ND is so high at 6-5. I get that it has to do with SOS, but what else goes into it

 

[Rutgers83]

I am no expert but it seems to be computer generation of all wins and losses for the team and the opponents teams and while it currently ranks today Maryland as number one and Albany as number 2, I think most would agree that there's some serious flaws in the evaluation possibly because I believe it factors in equally early results as well as current results. Albany was terrific in the beginning of the year but having Albany as number two doesn't make any sense as they totally had the WTF game against UMBC and just got trounced by Yale and not in the calculations is that they lost their best player. Teams can gel and play great and go on a run that only those watching and ranking can factor into the evaluation. Notre Dame and Syracuse are mid-teen level teams, in my opinion, and not deserving of such a high ranking in the RPI.