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Status of RU Basketball Program - Jellyman's View

jellyman

Heisman Winner
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Jul 25, 2001
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I want to start by saying that generally I support whoever the current RU coach is, in any sport. Many of you know this from prior discussions (in person and on the message boards), regarding other coaches, both football and basketball.

There is no doubt this year seems particularly awful, the worst since the Littlepage years ... maybe even worse in some ways, than the Littlepage years.

This post is neither an attack on Jordan and his staff, nor a support of Jordan and his staff, by the way, though there will be statements supporting both sides. I still feel I just have to trust the new Athletic Department administration until proven otherwise.

I should state, that even for the most optimistic fans (and as many know, I generally fall into that category), there is very little evidence supporting the program is headed in the right direction.

The MOST telling negative to me, as an optimist, is not the actual on-court performance (for which there can be some reasonable explanation other than coaching, even though many might disagree). Rather, the most telling negative implications, to me, were the complete strikeout of any signed commits in the Fall signing period. Sure, there ARE good players available in the Spring (contrary to what some posters might state). But for such a critical recruiting class, one that needed to produce actual contributing pieces as early as thew 2016-2017 season (as frosh), and a class for which Jordan was apparently waiting enough for that he saved a potential scholarship he could have handed out in the last class, that might have helped THIS season ... and zero signed players? That is extremely worrisome, in my opinion.

As to the on-court performance, I think it is nearly impossible to tell how well the coaching staff is actually doing as coaches. I know that many are firm in their views as to how poorly the coaches are coaching the players, but I am not convinced by their arguments. On the other hand, I am not convinced the coaching staff is doing WELL coaching the players either ... I literally do not know. That is probably a bad sign, I suppose.

I will say I have been disappointed in the defense most of the season. But the coaching staff DID make a change to improve the defense (and it did help), by benching Foreman for Grier ... moving Foreman to his much more natural position of PF. That helped the defense quite a bit, before Freeman got hurt.

And I actually believe that before the injuries, the offense showed some good things ... for example, other than Daniels, I think RU got a TON of good shots in their offensive flow and sets. Unfortunately, RU's players are simply not good shooters or finishers. Obviously, the coaching staff has to take some of the blame for not recruiting players good enough to make open shots or finish around the rim. But they should get credit for fashioning an offense that GETS open shots.

In re the current performance the last 2-3 weeks ... I think there is actually almost nothing the coaches can do, given the short roster. And only part of the problem is not enough recruited players. The injuries have been devastating to a team that already had almost no margin for error. Before the injuries mounted (remember, RU started with a key bench player hurt, in Doorson), RU should have beaten St. Johns (lost mainly due to a real abberration in Sanders' FT shooting ... Sanders was 1-6 FT.,s including at least 1 missed 1 and 1 ... he hits 4-7, with the front end of the 1 and 1, and RU wins that game, and maybe even easily) ... and RU had a great shot to beat Wake Forest (2 open shots in the last 12 seconds, down 1 each time). While Wake Forest is not a great team, they are at least a decent team (9-5), with wins over UCLA, Arkansas and LSU (with competitive losses to Xavier and Louisville). And RU probably should have beaten them.

But when Freeman went down, that was a KILLER blow. He was RU's best or 2nd best player, on an already thin roster - and by far and away RU's best interior scorer and rebounder.

And when Diallo went down ... oh my! Diallo was not a great player, and was disappointingly poor on defense. By now RU had exactly 2 players who could play Center and PF: Lewis and Foreman. That forced RU to move Laurent to the back-up PF slot, from the back-up WF slot. In the 1st 2 games he played that role, RU was hurt badly because Laurent literally did not know how to play post defense (either on ball or rotational help). But by the 3rd game he was MUCH improved, and was playing very well, including creating some mismatches on the offensive end as well. Still, he is really NOT a PF - just what RU had to work with, as RU had no other option. And still, RU had just 3 players to play PF and Center ... which made worse RU's defensive and rebounding issues. And for the Indiana and Maryland games Foreman was nowhere near 100%, with a bad ankle - but played anyway. I suspect that he might have played at all, had RU had available a healthy Freeman and Diallo (though I cannot prove that).

And then Laurent got hurt ... I have never seen a team with such injury problems, and all in the same slots. Now RU had ... nothing in the frontcourt ... just Foreman and Lewis. Ouch. Maryland was a no hope contest under the circumstances: A Final Four contending team against a below-average team before injuries, but now with only 7 scholarship players, and on the road. RU had to cover 6'7" to 6'10" players who could bot post up and shoot the 3-point shot, with Mike Williams (6'2") and Grier (6'4) ... hopeless. Frankly, though the Nebraska performance was disappointing - mainly how RU was so uncompetitive - if one looks at this objectively, without an agenda to either support or oppose the retention of Jordan as coach, the result should not be surprising. Nebraska's best player is a 6'7" GUARD. They have a number of 6'9" to 7'0" players in the frontcourt, and RU's back-up PF is Grier (6'4"). Nebraska's best player could just shoot right over any RU back-court player ... but RU was so undersized in the frontcourt, that there was no way to compensate in other ways to offset that Nebraska player's performance. There was a time in the game when RU had FIVE guards on the court: Grier as the tallest player, at 6'4". RU actually ran excellent offensive sets with that line-up, getting some very good shots ... though Goode missed an open 3, and RU missed 3 lay-ups, with that line-up. The problem was that RU literally could not defend or rebound they were so small.

Without FReeman, Diallo and Doorson, RU is going to be forced to give major minutes to Daniels, and too many minutes to Goode. And there is nothing any coaching can do to change that simple fact. Goode is simply too slow to defend any P5 player that RU has faced to date - he is a major liability on defense, despite great effort. And though he is supposed to be a shooter, he is not being successful shooting the ball. He is just shooting 7-26 from 3-point range (27%), which really hurts RU, since RU has to work SO hard to get him his open shots (since he cannot create his own), only to have him miss so often, and at such crucial parts of games. His 3-point shot form looks fine to me ... but he has a very slow release, in my opinion. And Daniels ... when RU had cut Maryland's lead, and then Nebraska's lead (okay, RU was not going to win either game, but RU did have points where they were rallying), Daniels just kills those rallies with simply awful turnovers and often even worse shots. Daniels is a rally-killer and a offensive set-killer. Plus he plays completely lackadaisical defense ... "ole" defense.

If everyone comes back, there is a core that can improve for 2016-2017: Sanders, Johnson and Williams at guard, Laurent at WF, Freeman, Foreman, Doorson and Diallo upfront. RU would need an additional real SHOOTER recruited at G/WF, or maybe 2, and could use one more frontcourt player for rebounding and defense. That may not be an NCAA team, but it could be a competitive team.

I do not know if Jordan can get those 3 players needed to come to RU, nor whether he can keep the current core together (keeping Sanders is REALLY important, as he IS going to be a great player).

Frankly, I would almost hope Freeman could, and be willing to, redshirt this year. The season is lost, and it would be nice for the program to have him for 2 additional seasons. But if he can come back by early February, but does not, RU might not win another game, which has other implications (none good).
 
Well balanced. Tough to disagree with anything.

Very easy for fans, me included, to get emotional watching the last 3 blowouts.
 
Jelly is pretty spot on

In a different way...to date ...on a 1 to 10 scale...(10 best and 1 worse with 5 being average) I give Eddie

Recruiting
Absolute grade....5.5 (we have a roster of 3 star players with 2 4 star players)
Relative grade ...7.5 (this is based on what we have to offer and where the program was the day we took over)

Player development on offense...5
Player development on defense...2

Macro X's and O's coaching on offense...6 (we have got pretty good looks compared to the rice era...though this is getting worse without a balanced line up)

Macro X's and O's cosching on defense...2

Macro development of basketball IQ of players...Indetermined this year due to injuries. First two years ...3
 
Jelly

As my grade imply ...the question is Eddie the guy to keep the kids belief (I.e. No transfers) and develop the skills (especially on defense and awareness) what we have on out roster which will translate to improvements and a better record
 
My eyes tell me D is the biggest problem, but statistics say our offense is worse.

As for recruiting....grade is completely incomplete. Any analysis based on recruiting stars is worthless (Sorry Shack).
 
Excellent objective summary. I've taken a half step back from the ledge.

We need to hope we can keep all these guys together and land a few late signees that can contribute.
 
Greene

I hear you but despite having only one guy capable of setting A decent pick on offense, we are getting almost 70 a game and a turnover tags is okay

Giving up 75 a game causing less than 13 turnovers in 30 second shot clock? Bad bad bad

Problem is the defense...and it was a problem before the big man injuries
 
I am a defense guy so I'd like to agree with you.I am just looking at raw data.

Year 3 308th off 203rd def
Year 2. 287th off. 112th def
Year 1. 145th off. 201st def

This year our scoring is up. Our possessions have gone from 65.7 per game to 70.9. Shot clock? Quick defensive possessions?

Mack and Jack we should have been better offensively. Kenpom uses point per possession. Can't think of a purer way to quantify offense.

The star stuff again bothers me. How many stars was Etou? He had the talent that his stars said. Why did Eddie land him? I am sure schools stayed away or didn't roll out the red carpet. I suspect there is the same with our 4 star guys.
 
I think points per game is a bad indicator personally of offense and defense.

First of all on both counts you need to toss out the games against the really bad teams.

If you're factoring in Rutgers Newark , Central Ark , Cent Ct , Mass Lowell it's flawed data. You play those teams as tune ups. It gives you very little in terms of an indicator as to where you are relative to Big Ten schools.

To me offensively the most critical stat is the Assist to Turnover ratio. The 2nd most important stat in the basketball of today is 3 point shooting percentage.

You need to be 1 1/2 to 1 at least to be reasonable and as a team if you aren't above 30 % from 3 that's poor and a real indictment of your backcourt.

Defensively the 2 key areas IMO are TO's of your opponents and rebounding.

We know rebounding in the case of Rutgers is sku'd because of the injuries but how many TO's you force relative to how many you commit will give you a sample size of where you are defensively.
 
Td Irish

I agree about the schedule still skewing the stars Bedause you still have your stats with too high a percentage based on "cream puff" games...need more games

However, Part of my comments is just quickly pulling out the cream puff game data and see where we at...but i used the full season numbers Bedause people can see those easy....
 
I know that but if you're a coaching staff this is the way you need to be evaluating performance.
 
Against the non 200+ opponents we haven't sniffed a point per possession offensively....0-10. D1 average is 1.028 points per possession.

In conference only games we are at .887 points per possession. 13th place is .971 points per game. multiply the difference we are 6 points on one side of the court worse thatn the 2nd worst team in b1G. Northwestern is in the middle at #7 at 1.075 points per possession. That is 13 point differential.....add in D, oh boy.

...but this is sort of regressing from main topic.

bottom line this is what has to happen, though I am a bit cooler on Sanders.

"If everyone comes back, there is a core that can improve for 2016-2017: Sanders, Johnson and Williams at guard, Laurent at WF, Freeman, Foreman, Doorson and Diallo upfront. RU would need an additional real SHOOTER recruited at G/WF, or maybe 2, and could use one more frontcourt player for rebounding and defense. That may not be an NCAA team, but it could be a competitive team.

I do not know if Jordan can get those 3 players needed to come to RU, nor whether he can keep the current core together (keeping Sanders is REALLY important, as he IS going to be a great player)."
 
bottom line this is what has to happen, though I am a bit cooler on Sanders.

"If everyone comes back, there is a core that can improve for 2016-2017: Sanders, Johnson and Williams at guard, Laurent at WF, Freeman, Foreman, Doorson and Diallo upfront. RU would need an additional real SHOOTER recruited at G/WF, or maybe 2, and could use one more frontcourt player for rebounding and defense. That may not be an NCAA team, but it could be a competitive team.

I do not know if Jordan can get those 3 players needed to come to RU, nor whether he can keep the current core together (keeping Sanders is REALLY important, as he IS going to be a great player)."

Sanders would look a LOT better if he were playing with players who would hit open shots after he delivered the ball, or finish around the rim after he delivered the ball. He looks less good when he ALSO has to carry the offensive scoring load ... he has done that in a couple of games, but has forced his shot in other games, when he feels he has to carry the load.

I am comfortable stating that Sanders is currently the best point guard RU has had in a LONG, LONG time ... better than Farmer, better than Geoff Billet ... not sure how far back to go. And I mean NOW. He will be way better if he stays 4 years. He does still make mistakes of inexperience, true enough, and does force things. But he would force a lot less if his teammates made open shots.
 
To me there are 2 Sanders
1. Sanders with Daniels on the floor
2. Sanders without Daniels on the floor

sanders is the best point guard we have had since I have been a Rutgers fan 1989. He needs to remain with us.
 
To me there are 2 Sanders
1. Sanders with Daniels on the floor
2. Sanders without Daniels on the floor

sanders is the best point guard we have had since I have been a Rutgers fan 1989. He needs to remain with us.

I agree with every word in this post.

Daniels is a cancer (maybe this is too harsh ... or not) on the court. Could be a GREAT guy, a terrific representative as an RU student athlete, and loyal to RU, for which he should be complimented. But on the court he is a major negative. But few other players means he has to play.
 
I agree with every word in this post.

Daniels is a cancer (maybe this is too harsh ... or not) on the court. Could be a GREAT guy, a terrific representative as an RU student athlete, and loyal to RU, for which he should be complimented. But on the court he is a major negative. But few other players means he has to play.

Based on where I sit and who is around me I get the sense you are right about the positives you list.
 
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Let's face it...

without injury, our 9th and 10th guys (both fifth year) seniors are starting and our 11th guy are getting big minutes....that bodes trouble anywhere,

I can't see how we can complain too much about the offense, even if the points per possession is low...when we have no one to grab an interior offensive rebound and one guy who could set a decent pick.

What we complain about is how we are playing defense. There is hustle and effort that is missing periodically (eddie called it out and that is on eddie) and I don't see enough extra energy scrapping for balls (Mike William is a 100% exception and sometime foreman and sanders)
 
I agree with every word in this post.

Daniels is a cancer (maybe this is too harsh ... or not) on the court. Could be a GREAT guy, a terrific representative as an RU student athlete, and loyal to RU, for which he should be complimented. But on the court he is a major negative. But few other players means he has to play.

Stop with the Daniels bashing. Ridiculous.
He almost single handily won the St. John's game.
Leading scorer and rebounder the GW game.
Leading rebounder the Maryland game. 11 points and 10 rebounds.
RU's best game of the year against Indiana was when Daniels was inserted.
Nobody has been good. Daniels has not been a cancer. Really piss poor choice of words. Unfair too.
 
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There are 2 ways to improve perceived lack of hustle on the defensive end
1. hustle more
2. get an athletic 6'11' guy who blocks shots

The capitulating defensive play probably doesn't even occur if Lewis was out there.
 
Stop with the Daniels bashing. Ridiculous.
He almost single handily won the St. John's game.
Leading scorer and rebounder the GW game.
Leading rebounder the Maryland game. 11 points and 10 rebounds.
RU's best game of the year against Indiana was when Daniels was inserted.
Nobody has been good. Daniels has not been a cancer. Really piss poor choice of words. Unfair too.

Defending Jelly...the cancer word was a bit harsh as he said. Sanders and Daniels have not gelled playing together. Part of that is on Sanders. There is no denying Daniels on ball defense has been bad....and when the ball is in his hands (and quite a few other players) he is almost always looking to create for himself.

Daniels, along with sanders FT shooting, blew the St. John's game. In the 1st half Daniels carved up a disinterested St. John's defense that later tightened up.
 
Defending Jelly...the cancer word was a bit harsh as he said. Sanders and Daniels have not gelled playing together. Part of that is on Sanders. There is no denying Daniels on ball defense has been bad....and when the ball is in his hands (and quite a few other players) he is almost always looking to create for himself.

Daniels, along with sanders FT shooting, blew the St. John's game. In the 1st half Daniels carved up a disinterested St. John's defense that later tightened up.

Wouldn't be in the game were it not for Daniels and liked his swish at the buzzer. Guts enough to take it and make it albeit late. How did our other buzzer beater shots go?
 
There is a psychological component to playing defense which involves effort.Playing for a team that is outclassed in size and talent makes players as the game progresses to slack off because the result is pretty well known. Its like when teams face the UConn women the result is known before hand based on intimidation alone.Winning streaks of 50 plus games simply demoralize opponents.In Rutgers case losing breeds demoralized players who show lack of effort and execution.

By just every measurable stat Rutgers is one of the worse teams in the country and that perception has been going on for far too long.The best players have transferred and the remaining players endured futility .
 
RU would need an additional real SHOOTER recruited at G/WF, or maybe 2, and could use one more frontcourt player for rebounding and defense. That may not be an NCAA team, but it could be a competitive team.

Jelly -- you are a great fan, and a glass half-full kind of guy, but still -- a competitive team? So, I guess you believe that Sanders won't flee because he doesn't want to sit out a year. But to get to "competitive" in Year 4, you need two or three essential pieces. Well, the staff has recruited exactly TWO kids who are legitimate B1G starters and has failed to recruit any shooters or rebounders in three classes. Nigel Johnson was a limited B12 player who flashed in a couple games but people are expecting him to start in the B1G? Oh yeah, it's only Rutgers so he probably will.

I don't know how anyone who watched the St John loss or the Central Arkansas nailbiter ... with everyone available for both except Doorson ... can expect this staff to run a program that can compete in more than a couple of B1G games in 16-17. I thought they were looking at 1-2 B1G wins this year, so the injuries are only going to cost Eddie a couple at most. They only factor into bigger beatdowns and wearing down the kids that are left.

The problems start and finish with -- there has been virtually NO player development in the last year and half. Not many coaching staffs can say that.
 
I agree on the injuries.

As for recruiting, I think Eddie has a plan in place. I believe he might have even let Kwe Parker go because he felt he had better options on the table that he's picking up this Spring.
 
I agree on the injuries.

As for recruiting, I think Eddie has a plan in place. I believe he might have even let Kwe Parker go because he felt he had better options on the table that he's picking up this Spring.

Eddie let Kwe go because he really coveted Ray Salnave. Oh, wait. He committed to Monmouth in the fall. Maybe Eddie really wanted Devonte Green of Long Island. Nope, Green just committed to Indiana on Saturday night.

It had to be because he wanted a Tiny Morton kid (Tripp) to headline his 2016 class ... because we see how much that's working at Seton Hall!!
 
I agree on the injuries.

As for recruiting, I think Eddie has a plan in place. I believe he might have even let Kwe Parker go because he felt he had better options on the table that he's picking up this Spring.
sure that's exactly what happened.
 
I agree on the injuries.

As for recruiting, I think Eddie has a plan in place. I believe he might have even let Kwe Parker go because he felt he had better options on the table that he's picking up this Spring.

WOW! I cannot wait to see the results of his plan. I could see his staff meeting going something like this:

Eddie: Lets sign NO ONE in the Fall and really dig in to get after the mostly unrated players left in Spring. No one will suspect a thing.

Staff: brilliant Eddie...love it.

Eddie: Lets head home guys.

Staff: What about film?

Eddie: VCR is broke...
 
I am comfortable stating that Sanders is currently the best point guard RU has had in a LONG, LONG time ... better than Farmer, better than Geoff Billet ... not sure how far back to go. And I mean NOW. He will be way better if he stays 4 years. He does still make mistakes of inexperience, true enough, and does force things. But he would force a lot less if his teammates made open shots.

+1
 
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If everyone comes back, there is a core that can improve for 2016-2017: Sanders, Johnson and Williams at guard, Laurent at WF, Freeman, Foreman, Doorson and Diallo upfront. RU would need an additional real SHOOTER recruited at G/WF, or maybe 2, and could use one more frontcourt player for rebounding and defense. That may not be an NCAA team, but it could be a competitive team.
Great, comprehensive post, Jelly. However, referencing the above excerpt, I think that, unfortunately, the return of all these players is a highly optimistic assumption. We are going to go winless in the B1G, given the awful run of serious frontcourt injuries, and finish with a 6 win season.. I flatly predict that Sanders will flee for his basketball life, quickly. Maybe even Freeman, in spite of the fact that he is an upper classman and already a transfer player. Even if Sanders is the only transfer, he is a incalculable loss. The guy has the potentisl to be a star.

I truly hate to be so bleak, but as someone who has been following RU MBB since the John Smogyi days (the Magyar Marauder from New Brunswick), this season is going to make Craig Littlepage's final one look like a trip to the final four. Believe me, this situation is infinitely worse. Recruiting prospects will be the lowest ever, given our horrid record. I love EJ and am grateful that he took over after the Rice mess, but Eddie probably doesn't have the energy to turn it around and should go, although his departure ironically could maximize the likelihood of transfers. In fairness, I want to emphasize that the bizarre rash of frontcourt injuries is not his fault. When you are already the weakest team in the league and then you lose 2/3 of your frontcourt players to injury in rapid succession, and you've got guards defending and trying to shoot over and rebound against big men, ...well, there's no fixing such a nightmare in the short term. We might have shown modest progress had we stayed healthy, but the decimation of the frontcourt roster has removed any hope for this year and done longer term damage to the program.

No magical wizard of a coach will come here and wade into this fetid swamp. We are in for more years of pain. Maybe when the new facilities are more in the news and closer to becoming a reality, we can start to attract a little more talent, but it's going to be a long haul. The injuries have just derailed RU MBB.
 
I agree on the injuries.

As for recruiting, I think Eddie has a plan in place. I believe he might have even let Kwe Parker go because he felt he had better options on the table that he's picking up this Spring.

lmao are you posting this to get a reaction. Parker left because he got a better offer from Tennessee. This team has little talent and you suggest he let Parker go all the while we have a Justin Goode on our team..lmfao
 
If everyone comes back, there is a core that can improve for 2016-2017: Sanders, Johnson and Williams at guard, Laurent at WF, Freeman, Foreman, Doorson and Diallo upfront. RU would need an additional real SHOOTER recruited at G/WF, or maybe 2, and could use one more frontcourt player for rebounding and defense. That may not be an NCAA team, but it could be a competitive team.
Great, comprehensive post, Jelly. However, referencing the above excerpt, I think that, unfortunately, the return of all these players is a highly optimistic assumption. We are going to go winless in the B1G, given the awful run of serious frontcourt injuries, and finish with a 6 win season.. I flatly predict that Sanders will flee for his basketball life, quickly. Maybe even Freeman, in spite of the fact that he is an upper classman and already a transfer player. Even if Sanders is the only transfer, he is a incalculable loss. The guy has the potentisl to be a star.

I truly hate to be so bleak, but as someone who has been following RU MBB since the John Smogyi days (the Magyar Marauder from New Brunswick), this season is going to make Craig Littlepage's final one look like a trip to the final four. Believe me, this situation is infinitely worse. Recruiting prospects will be the lowest ever, given our horrid record. I love EJ and am grateful that he took over after the Rice mess, but Eddie probably doesn't have the energy to turn it around and should go, although his departure ironically could maximize the likelihood of transfers. In fairness, I want to emphasize that the bizarre rash of frontcourt injuries is not his fault. When you are already the weakest team in the league and then you lose 2/3 of your frontcourt players to injury in rapid succession, and you've got guards defending and trying to shoot over and rebound against big men, ...well, there's no fixing such a nightmare in the short term. We might have shown modest progress had we stayed healthy, but the decimation of the frontcourt roster has removed any hope for this year and done longer term damage to the program.

No magical wizard of a coach will come here and wade into this fetid swamp. We are in for more years of pain. Maybe when the new facilities are more in the news and closer to becoming a reality, we can start to attract a little more talent, but it's going to be a long haul. The injuries have just derailed RU MBB.

Best post in this thread...well said.
 
lmao are you posting this to get a reaction. Parker left because he got a better offer from Tennessee. This team has little talent and you suggest he let Parker go all the while we have a Justin Goode on our team..lmfao

I think you need to stop belittling our players.

I trust in Eddie and I'm sure he had his reasons to let Parker go.
 
Coaches don't "let" players go. Unsigned players leave on their own. And if Eddie let him go then why did the decommit happen AFTER he visited us while committed? Seems like EJ wanted him to be here. Are you suggesting that Parker did something here on his visit that made Eddie not want him anymore? Considering that Shoes' son tweeted about "loyalty is important... etc" after Kwe decommited, I'd highly doubt that.
 
Coaches don't "let" players go. Unsigned players leave on their own. And if Eddie let him go then why did the decommit happen AFTER he visited us while committed? Seems like EJ wanted him to be here. Are you suggesting that Parker did something here on his visit that made Eddie not want him anymore? Considering that Shoes' son tweeted about "loyalty is important... etc" after Kwe decommited, I'd highly doubt that.

Doorson is here because Dixon let him go
 
I think you need to stop belittling our players.

I trust in Eddie and I'm sure he had his reasons to let Parker go.


Parker left to go to a better program, Eddie spun it as he left because of playing time issues...omg on this roster, Kwe wasn't going to have to battle for playing time
 
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