Steve Pikiell: Rutgers has ‘options’ at center, did not add transfer because ‘it’s not fantasy sports’
Rutgers basketball coach Steve Pikiell bristled at concerns about the center position.
Steve Pikiell: Rutgers has ‘options’ at center, did not add transfer because ‘it’s not fantasy sports’
- Thread starter Tango Two
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He says that now but he wanted a Center but had no money to get one. That was discussed here and the Other board extensively.
Pike’s quote “You get the best players that you can get that want to come here within your means,…”. Translation of “within your means” is Pike saying we didn’t have the NIL money to add the Centers that I actually did pursue.
Yes 100%. If we had the means Clifford would still be here and we would be talking Final 4
I actually thought this was the most interesting quote in the article: "I think they’re all good, especially our five, which wasn’t a great position for us last year. It really wasn’t."
Yet, if Cliff had stayed, I truly believe this is a Top 20 team, or better. Cliff did not improve much, had no offensive game, and bad hands but I would love to have him back, and now his time appears to have been under-appreciated. How quickly we forget some great defensive games he had vs. Edey, Jackson-Davis, and Cockburn.
please don't give Cliff any extra motivation for when we play them
Uh ... none of those so-called great defensive games occurred LAST season, rather they were 2 seasons ago.
Fact, look it up: Last season, one of RU's biggest problems is that nearly every center RU faced last year schooled Omoruyi, out playing him substantially.
It IS true that when Omoruyi produced a double-double, RU was 9-0. The problem is he had just 9 double-doubles in 32 games.
Here is a selected game log against various centers:
Princeton (L): Okay, not really a traditional center vs center. Omoruyi had 12 pts, 7 reb (6-12 FG) ... Princeton had TWO players with more rebounds (Caden Pierce with 15 and Matt Allocco with 9).
Georgetown (W): RU won, Omoruyi had 8 pts and 6 reb ... Supreme Cook (not all that good), still had 6 pts and 6 reb.
Illinois (1st game) (L): Omoruyi was 3-10 FG, 7 pts, 9 reb, 8 blocks - did outplay Dainja (who only played 8 min), and played Hawkins even - with his blocks being a big difference.
Wake Forest (L): Omoruyi had 4 pts and 4 reb in 27 minutes ... Reid, in his 1st game back, dominated (even shooting just 4-13 FG), with 12 pts, 14 reb in 27 minutes ... Heck, their starting center who played just 12 minutes, had 5 pts and 4 reb.
Seton Hall (W): Omoruyi played well, 11 pts, 13 reb, 7 blocks ... a double-double and an RU win. He did outplay Bediako (a mediocre center) - though Bediako still did get 11 reb, along with 6 pts.
Miss. State (L): Omoruyi was completely dominated by their center, Jimmy Bell. Bell had 17 pts and 18 reb (6 offensive) ... Omoruyi played just 21 minutes, in constant foul trouble, 3 pts and 0 (yes, ZERO) reb.
Ohio St (L): Omoruyi battled Okpara to a draw ... meaning he did NOT outplay Okpara ... each had 7 pts and 7 reb, Okpara 2-3 FG, Omoruyi 2-6 FG.
Iowa (L): Freeman outplayed Omoruyi, mostly - Omoruyi did have 9 reb, along with 6 pts. Freeman had 15 pts and just 4 reb - on 5-7 FG.
Indiana (W): Omoruyi did have 11 reb, but just 5 pts on 2-7 FG. Indiana's post players? Reneau had 13 pts and 6 reb (6-10 FG) and Ware had 13 pts and 17 reb (5-10 FG).
MSU (L): Omoruyi played just 20 minutes, had 4 pts and 7 reb. MSU's center, Sissoku, played 18 minutes, scored 3 pts and had 7 reb ... Essentially equal ... against MSU's only 5th or 6th best player - if that.
Nebraska (1st game) (W): Omoruyi played very well, 14 pts, 15 reb, 4 blocks, helped squash Mast, and outplayed Gary and Allick.
Illinois (2nd game) (L): Omoruyi was great, with 22 pts and 9 reb, 10-19 FG. Outplayed Hawkins and Dainja.
Purdue (1st game) (L): Omoruyi played pretty well, 13pts, 6 reb (needed more), 5-10 FG ... But Edey obliterated him, with 26 pts, 12 reb, 4 blocks, 9-12 FG. Sure, Edey was the best player in the US ... but Omoruyi did much better vs Edey the prior year - both games.
Penn St. (L): Omoruyi was outplayed by ... Wahab!!! Omoruyi had 8 pts and 6 reb, Wahab had 9 pts and 11 reb!
Michigan (1st game) (W): Omoruyi had a double-double, 15 pts and 11 reb, 6-9 FG. Still, Taris Reed still had 12 pts and 15 reb, 5-8 FG, arguably played even with Omoruyi.
Maryland (1st game) (W): Omoruyi had 8 pts, 5 reb on 4-10 FG. RU won DESPITE Omoruyi ... Julian Reese was a ridiculous 8-10 FG, 19 pts, 12 reb. RU won because defensively (and yes, Omoruyi WAS a part of this) they held Young to 3-17 FG with 5 TO.
Wisconsin (W): Omoruyi definitely outplayed Crowl, with a double-double.
Northwestern (W): Omoruyi did not have a double-double, but was 9 pts and 9 reb, and did outplay Nicholson by a mile.
Minnesota (L): Omoruyi again had an excellent game , with 19 pts and 8 reb on 6-10 FG. Offensively. But Payne, the opposing center, outplayed Omoruyi, was even better, 8-12 FG, with 21 pts, 11 reb (7 offensive reb).
Purdue (2nd game) (L): Ouch. Omoruyi had 4 pts and 3 reb. Edey had 25 pts and 7 reb with 7-8 FG, 11-11 FT. RU lost by 30.
Maryland (2nd game) (L): Ouch. Omoruyi had 5 pts, 4 reb and only played 17 min. Reese killed him again: 20 pts, 6 reb, 8-11 FG.
Michigan (2nd game) (W): Omoruyi wildly outplayed Reed this time: 19 pts, 15 reb vs Reed's 12 pts and 8 reb.
Nebraska (2nd game) (L): Ouch, again. Omoruyi played just 22 minutes (coach's decision), with 6 pts, and 2 reb. Gary had 15 pts and 11 reb and Allick had 10 pts and 12 reb.
Wisconsin (2nd game) (L): Crowl outplayed Omoruyi. Omoruyi played 28 minutes, had 7 pts, 5 reb, 3 blocks. Crowl had 17 pts and 11 reb.
Ohio St (2nd game) (L): Omoruyi had only 16 minutes, in foul trouble all game and fouled out ... still had 10 pts and 7 reb. Okpara played him even: 34 minutes, 10 pts 8 reb.
Maryland (3rd game) (L): Omoruyi was awful again ... 24 minutes, 1-7 FG, 2 pts and 5 reb. Julian Reese? 12 pts, 8 reb, 6-8 FG.
Multiple game opposition centers:
Vs Edey (2 games): Edey 51 points, 21 reb, 16-20 FG ... Omoruyi 17 points and 7 reb
Vs Reese (3 games): Reese 51 points, 26 reb, 22-29 FG ... Omoruyi 15 points and 14 reb
vs Okpara (2 games, OSU): Okpara 17 points, 15 reb ... Omoruyi 17 points and 14 reb
vs Crowl (2 games): Crowl 20 points and 24 reb ... Omoruyi 20 points and 18 reb
Without the stats: Omoruyi outplayed Dainja of Illinois by a lot, in both games.
Omoruyi outplayed the Nebraska centers in one game and was badly outplayed in the 2nd game.
Other Centers - 1 game only:
Omoruyi was outplayed by the centers from Wake Forest, Miss. St, Minnesota, Indiana, Penn St., and Iowa.
Omoruyi outplayed the centers on Northwestern and Illinois
Omoruyi was basically played even versus the centers on Seton Hall, MSU
Mississippi State was a complete embarrassment. Cliff was absolutely putrid. I don't think he played a worse game while on the banks.
Wow. That’s an awful lot of research. Good for you. If Omoruyi was outplayed by all of these teams’ centers, I really fear how we will be dominated inside this year. Pike struck out getting a veteran big..plain and simple. If might not have been his fault, but it’s a big miss. I just hate how the narrative is starting to change that Cliff wasn’t that good anyway. ..as if we rally didn’t need another big. That’s convenient. We would have been lucky to win 8-10 games without him last year, even with our cupcake OOC schedule. It’s funny how as bad as he is/was, Alabama sure wanted him and now they’re a preseason #1 team in some polls. I’m the first to admit that he did not develop here. He came with zero offense and he left with zero offense. His hands were terrible and physical centers pushed him around. However, his biggest problem this year was that he couldn’t get the easy buckets because players like Mulcahy and Geo were no longer here to give him the passes he required to dunk (his only move). I don’t see a single big on our roster who is going to be able to put up the stats you laid out above this season.
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Hard to hear that as anything other than a real shot at Cliff. Can’t imagine we will get more out of Ogbole, Somerville and Martini than we got out of Cliff, but hope I am wrong. I think it’s just spin and not what Pikiel really thinks about them. If the centers we have really are better than what we had last year, this will be one tough team to beat.
I don’t think anyone knows what we will get for. Ogbole yet. If he can play good defense, rebound, hit at least 60% from the line, and stay on the floor, I will be thrilled.
Omoruyi was so bad one of the best teams in the country game him over $1M in NIL. What in the world are some of you thinking? The whole team was majorly flawed last year. The major problem was shooting. Not Cliff.
Cliff is an incredible physical and athletic speciman. However, that did not translate to becoming dominant basketball skills as the post above shows. He looked disjointed on the basketball floor many times. He will be solid with Alabama because he does not need to be the focus of attention. He has a strong surrounding cast that will prop him up. Alabama is much like what Cliff had here 2 years ago, but not last year. Last year we needed him to be the focus but the surrounding cast was weak. He could not live up to that level of expectation.
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I promise you Nate Oats’ Nerd Ball operation wouldn’t shell out for a bad player. Omoruyi’s value isn’t totally evident from box score comparisons — we effectively eliminated dribble drives to the rim because of his shot blocking presence.
This.
Look, several thoughts:
1) Omoruyi was not the central flaw to last season's team. Obviously, the more significant flaws were a combination of a lack of 3-point shooting capability (Griffiths was desperately needed to be a 33% - 35% 3-point shooter and a 11-13 ppg scorer - and was not), lack of development from Simpson, and lack of LENGTH on defense ... and lack of even decent depth.
2) That said, BECAUSE of the other flaws, last season's team REALLY needed Omoruyi to be a star ... which he was not. He NEEDED to be a 14+ ppg scorer, with 55% FG ... and did not come close. He NEEDED to be a reliable double-double player ... and was not. I am not saying it was his fault - maybe it was beyond what he was capable of accomplishing, and asking too much. But given Spencer and Mulcahy leaving so late they could not be adequately replaced, that was what RU needed from Omoruyi - and did not get.
3) To those who say RU is not likely to get from this year's centers what Omoruyi provided, you are probably correct - but THIS year's team may need something DIFFERENT, which they might get. The 3 players apparently slotted to play the most minutes at center, Ogbole, Sommerville and Martini offer different skills and potentially different contributions than did Omoruyi/Woolfolk.
4) It would not surprise me if Omoruyi averaged 8-10 ppg and 10 rpg, and is a 1st team all defensive SEC player this year. And hats off to him if that happens! But that does not mean he would do the same at RU, and does not change the FACTS of his deficiencies from last season. Bottom line, 2 years ago, Omoruyi was significantly better than Julian Reese, Pharrell Payne, Taris Reed, and though clearly not as good, he battled Edey to near standstill in at least 1 of the 2 games. LAST season, all those players, and MORE outplayed him by wide margins when face to face.
Too long, didn't read, but Cliff isn't a great one on one defender. He might be the best help defending center in the country though. You are looking at him through the wrong lens. Also, stop bringing up that damn Princeton game as proof of anything. Didn't the two guys you mention each play like 10 more minutes than Cliff?
Cliff was in the 94th percentile nationally in defensive rebounding %, 99th percentile in block %, 99th in Hakeem % (block % + steal %), 99th percentile in blocks per personal foul, 98th in personal foul efficiency. Think about the help he had last year, it was non existent.
Ogbole will be average at best Pikiell is banking on the depth of the position helping, but also just the rest of the team and how skilled they are. If Ogbole can grab 6-7 rebounds a game, and finish a lob, or inside pass for a dunk, Pikiell is fine with that. Lathan will come along eventually and be the more skilled big that Rutgers needs. It will be center by association, which is I believe something Jay Young prefers. Jay Young will be improving these guys. I hope Ogbole can outperform.
Getting a sense that by end of year Ogbole will be into games sporadically when others have foul problems. Seems to fit the Pikiell pattern of hype in preseason, visible confirmation that product on court does not meet the pre-season hype, followed by diminishing or no playing time by end of season.
Gotcha. He is relatively new to sport. I just expect physicality, and rebounding. If he does both, I would be happy with his contributions. I saw the hype and just think he will be a very much okay player, but the play is dependent on the rest. They can overlook average contributions when the rest of the team is pretty good.
We will miss Cliff's shot-blocking abilities most of all. He was an ELITE shot-blocker. But I think the reduction in blocked shots will be offset by better perimeter defense with all of the length we have with our guards and wings. And Ogbole is a pretty good shot blocker in his own right.
We will miss Cliff's rebounding too, though I think Ogbole's best trait is his rebounding ability, so we might not miss Cliff's rebounding as much as we otherwise would have. It remains to be seen whether Sommerville and Martini will be able to rebound as well as Ogbole, however.
We will not miss ANYTHING about Cliff's offensive game. NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH. He was a major liability on offense, in a year where we needed him to be a 15 and 10 guy. It's not his "fault," mind you -- because he is what he is -- but that's what we needed and didn't get.
But we don't "need" our center to be a major threat on offense THIS YEAR. Not with Dylan and Ace's shotmaking and distrtibution abilities, and not with Martini's and Hayes' 3-pt shooting ability. If the combination of Ogbole, Sommerville, and Martini (when playing the 5) can combine for 9 points and 10 rebounds in 40 minutes, we will be fine.
We will miss Cliff's rebounding too, though I think Ogbole's best trait is his rebounding ability, so we might not miss Cliff's rebounding as much as we otherwise would have. It remains to be seen whether Sommerville and Martini will be able to rebound as well as Ogbole, however.
We will not miss ANYTHING about Cliff's offensive game. NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH. He was a major liability on offense, in a year where we needed him to be a 15 and 10 guy. It's not his "fault," mind you -- because he is what he is -- but that's what we needed and didn't get.
But we don't "need" our center to be a major threat on offense THIS YEAR. Not with Dylan and Ace's shotmaking and distrtibution abilities, and not with Martini's and Hayes' 3-pt shooting ability. If the combination of Ogbole, Sommerville, and Martini (when playing the 5) can combine for 9 points and 10 rebounds in 40 minutes, we will be fine.
Man, Degaz ... I do like your style and points.
To add ... this year's team will be very different than any other team RU has had ... a very different mix (and even LEVEL) of talents, with a different focus on offense. RU's offense will be almost entirely reliant on how good Harper and Bailey are - and how good the supporting shooters (Martini and Hayes) will be, and how good the tertiary wing players (Williams, Davis, Acuff, Derkack) will be in support, and/or in the moments when Harper and Bailey are either off the floor, or just off (which will happen from time to time).
Also, I believe one thing I HAVE seen enough of is that Ogbole sets just ferocious high screens - which will be extremely valuable, given how HARPER plays and sets up the offense.
Also, even if Ogbole only gives 15 mpg, I think that would be very helpful ... presuming Sommerville can provide 15-20 mpg, and Martini 5 mpg ... does Bailey really play a few minutes at the 5? Grant? The better Ogbole is able to rim protect and play post defense without fouling, the more minutes he will get - offense will never be the reason he is in the game. I believe even at 15 mpg Ogbole has a chance to average 4 ppg and 5 rpg. Not Omoruyi numbers, but solid per minute numbers, and with the high screen capabilities, a valuable and useful piece. I do not think that is asking too much. - not even expecting too much.
In re the post asking about Acuff v J. Williams, based on watching 10 games of Williams, and tape on Acuff, I would say that Acuff is more of a shooter than Williams, but they have moderately similar mid-range games.
Here are the stats, from sports-reference.com/cbb:
Williams played much more, earlier in his career, for Temple in the AAC, than did Acuff for Duquesne of the A-10 ... And though the A-10 is likely the better league NOW, with the defections of AAC schools (especially Houston and SMU), at the time Williams played for Temple as a Frosh and Soph, the AAC was probably better (its best teams were better than the A-10's best teams, the A-10 had more decent teams - was less top heavy) ... AND ... Temple was a WAY better team then was Duquesne (Acuff's team).
So ...
Williams was a STARTER in a COVID shortened season while he was a FRESHMAN, and averaged 9 ppg, 4 ass/g, 3.5 reb/g in 32 mpg. As a SOPHOMORE, he started all 32 games for a rather good - though short of the NCAA - 17-12 Temple team, again averaging 0ver 9 ppg, 4.3 ass/g, 3.5 reb/g. In those 2 seasons, he shot 47% and 49%, respectively, from TWO-point range, but his 3-point FG% dropped from 32% as a freshmen, to 23% as a soph .... and to 21% at RU (he shot 50% from 2-point range for RU last year in 10 games). AND ... he transferred to Iowa St, a high level Big 12 team, though due to an achilles injury missed that whole season - and then chose RU after he had initially chosen Illinois. In other words, he was a full time starter at a solid mid-level team in a more than solid league, and then transferred UPWARD to major teams in strong P6 leagues.
Acuff was 7th in the nation in scoring last year, averaging 21.7 ppg, true. But his history is quite different from Williams' history. Acuff was not a starter as a freshman, averaging 14 mpg, and was a part-time starter as a sophomore, averaging 23 mpg. He averaged 3.7 ppg and 5.7 ppg on those 2 seasons, respectively, shooting 46% and 50% from 2-point range, and 29% and 39% from 3-point range those 2 years. But, as a perspective, as a sophomore, playing for a 6-24 A-10 last place Duquesne team, he was only a part-time starter (vs Williams being a 32 mpg starting PG for a 17-12 Temple team that finished 4th in the AAC). Acuff then transferred DOWNWARD, to a lesser conference - and a poor team within that weaker conference. At Eastern Michigan, Acuff DID star: Full time starter for 2 seasons, 34 mpg as a Junior, averaging 14 ppg (2nd leading scorer), 55% 2-point FG% and 34% 3-point FG%, for a 8-23 team, then as a Senior, for an improved 13-18 (but still 10th place of 12 teams) team, "carrying" them to a material improvement vs the prior year, averaging 21.7 ppg, in a crazy 38 mpg, with a 50% 2-point FG%, and 29% 3-point FG%. He averaged 2.7 and 2.8 ass/g, and last year in 38 mpg averaged 3.6 reb/g.
I interpret the above and reach a couple of very uninformed conclusions:
1) Williams is the better player vs Acuff - has always been the better player ... more athletic, better defender, but also a different role: PG, not 2G. He was a full-time starter every season he played, starting as a freshman, for better teams than Acuff played for, and when he transferred, he transferred UPWARD, to better leagues and better teams, and was still a starter for RU.
2) Acuff is a better SHOOTER than Williams, but he took longer to develop, and transferred DOWNWARD to a lesser league and a lesser team ... and the volume shooting he had to do, and the requirement he carry a poor team in a weak league, led to LESS efficient FG%'s. I think I saw a stat about him that his catch and shoot 3-point FG% was higher by a relevant statistical margin than his overall 3-point FG%.
Williams is a starter - and will be. Acuff is best served as a a reserve on a good P6 team, and when healthy would appear to play the role of offensive spark off the bench, and with a little luck will show as a 33% to 35% 3-point shooter and drive and mid-range scorer subbing for both Harper and Williams.
How J. Davis slots in will be interesting to watch, as he is a distinctly different player than either Williams or Acuff. How many minutes each of those 3 get is TBD - though it would seem certain Williams gets starter minutes. I have always seen Acuff as playing the role Aundre Hyatt should have played - as a reserve off the bench (though Hyatt had better credentials as a recruit than did Acuff ... but Acuff may be a better 3 point shooter in that role, when he does not have to carry a team).
If Cliff would have accepted just being the defensive juggernaut like Rodman or Mutombo, he would have been an elite player. Once they tried to push him outside of his comfort zone, things fell apart for him. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have tried to expand his game in order to get to the NBA, just that it most likely has more of a negative impact on his true strengths.
Who is they? Certainly not anyone at Rutgers. And Cliff is not like Rodman and Mutombo. He made his mark as a help defender, but at best was mediocre in guarding other centers, which quite honestly is the #1 reason there was so little NBA interest in him.
His handlers. And no, he's not at that level, but those players specialized in one specific defensive area. Rodman was a rebounder, Dikembe was a shot blocker. If Cliff just worried about that, last year would have been different, IMO.
Rodman was tenacious defender, and Mutombo was an excellent defender of opposing centers. You can get to the NBA as a defensive specialist, but your primary responsibility needs to be guarding your position.
Overall, I agree with Pike. Depth is better and allows for interesting combinations. Plus, Dylan is going to be setting these guys up in good positions to succeed on the offensive end - more than anyone did for Cliff last season.
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