Surfer Guy Ref John Higgins

[mildone]

That's the lunacy of the flop rule and how it's implemented.
It's nearly impossible to draw an offensive foul in that situation unless you go down.
If you go down, they might call you for a flop even if the offensive player put his shoulder in your chest
Horrible rule, horribly implemented.

The flop rule makes sense (penalizing players for simulating contact). But I agree that it's problematic because, as you say, it can be hard to know the player intended to flop versus lost their balance in anticipation of the contact or whatever.

Still, it's not really all that different than most foul calls in that the refs are forced to make a judgement call. I think they should have to review the play before confirming it. Or do they have to do so already? I don't recall.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Flop rule is fine if the officials call fouls without guys flopping when fouled. If Paul flopped when being bullied to the paint I am sure a charge would have been called.

 

[Scarlet83]

Those folks are mathematically challenged and are generally losers for watching the NBA. They probably sleep with night lights and don’t floss

I like sleep with night lights line, Greene. That’s a keeper!

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Stole that one from a college GameDay 10+ years ago when someone made a sign that said Russell Wilson sleeps with a night light

 

[Scangg]

In this particular case, the coach was complaining to the league about refs not calling more fouls on opposing teams. The league isn't gonna do anything. They want no part of it. Coach was wasting his time (a fact confirmed by his statements in the press conference).

But it really doesn't matter what the coaches are going for. They will still fail. Even when it's an objectively unfair major factor in a win or loss, such as what happened with OSU, the league still did nothing more than pay it lip service.

And that's with something objective that determined the result of the game and that everybody could clearly see in the replay. No judgement necessary. And still the league did nothing meaningful.

And finally, despite fan paranoia, the refs are by far the most likely to be the least biased people at the game. Conversely, all the coaches and players and fans are highly biased. The league isn't going to second-guess a bunch of subjective judgement calls made by the less biased folks in favor of the more biased folks. Just never gonna happen. It would lead to chaos.

Except the league has already done something about it. They started bringing in refs from other conferences since the B1G refs have been so bad

 

[mildone]

Except the league has already done something about it. They started bringing in refs from other conferences since the B1G refs have been so bad

Are you certain about that? Or making an assumption? Is there a link to a statement from the Big Ten discussing the new refs and that they were brought in due to poor officiating by existing Big Ten refs? Also, did the Big Ten fire the refs being replaced in games by refs from other conferences?

Is there a thread here that discusses all this I missed?

 

[BigEastPhil]

Was Rashod Kent in the building last night?

Lol. Rashod was a guest of mine at the game yesterday. Juel Wiggan will also be a guest of mine at a future game this year. Game tbd. 🤨

 

[SirPerceval]

This game did have a 1995-2000 NBA feel to it. A ton of backing in to the paint and a lot of contact. Paul needed to hit the floor on one of those back ins. Tough spot because if he goes down he could be called for floo

He can’t since he’s now branded as a flopper

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Lol. Rashod was a guest of mine at the game yesterday. Juel Wiggan will also be a guest of mine at a future game this year. Game tbd. 🤨

I once saw him shopping at the Bridgewater mall.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Lol. Rashod was a guest of mine at the game yesterday. Juel Wiggan will also be a guest of mine at a future game this year. Game tbd. 🤨

we are running out of games and Michigan is a blackout

 

[G- RUnit]

Second foul he called on Cliff was bad but he’s a decent/good ref.

 

[fluoxetine]

The flop rule makes sense (penalizing players for simulating contact). But I agree that it's problematic because, as you say, it can be hard to know the player intended to flop versus lost their balance in anticipation of the contact or whatever.

Still, it's not really all that different than most foul calls in that the refs are forced to make a judgement call. I think they should have to review the play before confirming it. Or do they have to do so already? I don't recall.

Flop rule is fine if the officials call fouls without guys flopping when fouled. If Paul flopped when being bullied to the paint I am sure a charge would have been called.

Flop rule sucks. If you flop you are on the ground which is penalty enough. It’s the ref’s responsibility not to fall for it

 

[jerseybird]

Flop rule is fine if the officials call fouls without guys flopping when fouled. If Paul flopped when being bullied to the paint I am sure a charge would have been called.

If a player flops after minimal contact from an opponent which wouldn't cause anybody else on the court to fall, then he is leaving the call up to the official's discretion. They got to stop watching those soccer videos where the guy falls down writhing in pain, and then, 10 secs later, he is sprinting down the field.

 

[BKIn118]

Lol. Rashod was a guest of mine at the game yesterday. Juel Wiggan will also be a guest of mine at a future game this year. Game tbd. 🤨

All kidding aside…Rashod has been back for games several times in the past few seasons.

Juel used to be a regular many years ago, but havent seen him for quite some time. I’ll reach out to see how he is!

 

[fatsam98]

Watching San Diego State - Utah State and I swear he's reffing it. Must be some good waves there for him to fly out same day. That or he has a twin

 

[goru7]

Watching San Diego State - Utah State and I swear he's reffing it. Must be some good waves there for him to fly out same day. That or he has a twin

Not only is he reffing at San Diego State tonite but Brook Wells is in Minnesota for Indiana / Minnesota . These refs fly all over the country. I think it is a few thousand a game , especially in the Power 5/6 and maybe $4,000 - $5,000 a game. Not a bad living but you have to take the heat and be fairly competent

 

[Scangg]

Are you certain about that? Or making an assumption? Is there a link to a statement from the Big Ten discussing the new refs and that they were brought in due to poor officiating by existing Big Ten refs? Also, did the Big Ten fire the refs being replaced in games by refs from other conferences?

Is there a thread here that discusses all this I missed?

It was discussed somewhere, but why else would they all of a sudden be bringing in refs from other conferences?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

No Pat Driscoll sightings this year

 

[fluoxetine]

Not only is he reffing at San Diego State tonite but Brook Wells is in Minnesota for Indiana / Minnesota . These refs fly all over the country. I think it is a few thousand a game , especially in the Power 5/6 and maybe $4,000 - $5,000 a game. Not a bad living but you have to take the heat and be fairly competent

This is part of the problem with the officiating. They are way overworked.

 

[mildone]

It was discussed somewhere, but why else would they all of a sudden be bringing in refs from other conferences?

So nobody actually knows the reason, people are just speculating?

If I were to speculate, it would be to guess refs change for the exact same reasons other people change jobs. Like all professions, there's always attrition and movement between organizations. There could be dozens of reasons for a Big Ten or other conference ref to change jobs. For all I know, some refs float between conferences all the time.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that refs are sometimes fired for non-performance. But I've seen no factual data that supports the theory that officiating in one conference is significantly different than in any other conference. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that there are fan of teams in pretty much every conference who have a theory that the refs that work their games are the worst refs out there.

 

[29PAS]

my memory is terrible....refresh me on this game

Rashod Kent's senior night game where he fouled out. My recollection is in the post game interview, he took a light hearted swipe at the refs by asking "Who fouls out on senior night"? Higgins might have been one of them.

 

[RUKnights86]

One thing I have noticed this year is what I will call "fresh" new faces to BIG games, not just RU games but the conference overall. In the last few years it has been the same cast of characters who do all BIG games. But as the OP noted, we are getting guys like Higgins (who usually does a lot of Big 12 games) and some like Breeding who are known to do Big East games. Really not sure what it is about overall in the grand scheme of things.

As far as guys doing games on back to back nights, that is not uncommon and a regular occurrence. As one poster mentioned Brooks Wells did the Minny game last night after ours, which is not a crazy thing if you think about it since there's was a 9pm EST tip.

I have noticed we have only seen very limited of some of the more regulars that we used to see in the past (Courtney Greene for example I think I first spotted at the OSU game for the first time all year).

 

[BigEastPhil]

Let’s not forget Randy Ayers - who is actually another highly regarded ref in ACC - who has reffed 2 of our games -and who unfortunately he presided over the Ohio state “loss”.

John Gaffney from the BE also reffed the Seton Hall game.

We also have have seen very little of Larry Scirotto.

Conference has certainly made a legitimate intent to bring in high quality refs from other conferences and it appears are mixing up the refs a lot more so they don’t ref an abundant number of games for a conference team - or at least certainly with us so far

 

[knight82]

I remember one time years ago, I happened to be talking to Bob Wenzel and mentioned how I dont think it's good to have a game reffed by a guy doing his sixth game in seven nights. Bob's response was I'd rather have one of the top guys who is tired than one of the lesser ones who is fresh

 

[Scangg]

So nobody actually knows the reason, people are just speculating?

If I were to speculate, it would be to guess refs change for the exact same reasons other people change jobs. Like all professions, there's always attrition and movement between organizations. There could be dozens of reasons for a Big Ten or other conference ref to change jobs. For all I know, some refs float between conferences all the time.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that refs are sometimes fired for non-performance. But I've seen no factual data that supports the theory that officiating in one conference is significantly different than in any other conference. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that there are fan of teams in pretty much every conference who have a theory that the refs that work their games are the worst refs out there.

They haven't left their current conferences altogether as far as I know. Some highly rated refs from other conferences are taking some games. I don't know why you're trying so hard to come up with an alternate reason and avoiding the obvious one

 

[mildone]

They haven't left their current conferences altogether as far as I know. Some highly rated refs from other conferences are taking some games. I don't know why you're trying so hard to come up with an alternate reason and avoiding the obvious one

There’s no work at all in assuming refs come and go for the same reasons people in all other jobs do. The work would be proving that assumption untrue.

Is there any objective data that shows the Big Ten officiating is worse than in other conferences? That seems to be a critical premise upon which the theory that the Big Ten needs to get better refs is built.

 

[fatsam98]

He's reffing Purdue-Sparty today. After reffing a game on the west coast last night. Dude is everywhere.

 

[BigEastPhil]

He's reffing Purdue-Sparty today. After reffing a game on the west coast last night. Dude is everywhere.

Conference again is bringing in top refs for big games - which is good. Gaffney also was a ref in this game along with DJ - who is probably best fairest ref in conference in my opinion. Unfortunately we ll have Scirotto and lower tier refs for our game vs Iowa. Hopefully they get the message to not interject themselves in every game

 

[fatsam98]

He's reffing Purdue-Sparty today. After reffing a game on the west coast last night. Dude is everywhere.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Made this post on 3/6/19 on the PSU board, and it still rings true…

———————————————————-

Over the weekend, after DJ Carstensen's no-call at the end of the PSU-Wisconsin, I read some comments on some of the PSU forums complaining about the fact that DJ has just done a game 500 miles away the night before. It wasn't surprising to me, since watching college hoops, you see the same guys popping up night after night on TV in different conferences. However, they usually at least seem to be in the same region (ie, guy might do some Big Ten, A10, Big East, etc).

Last night, I was watching the Utah State-Colorado State game and saw Kelly Pfeifer doing the game. Kelly does a lot of Big Ten games (he's had PSU twice this season), but this game was out at Colorado State. This got me to check and see what other conferences he's doing, and wowzers.

This basketball season is now 118 days old. In those 118 days, Kelly has worked 86 of them (note that KenPom shows 87 games, but he's got some bad data for one of them which I let Ken know about this morning). In those 86 games, he's done game in the following conferences (conference games only): Big Ten, Big Sky, Horizon, MAAC, Mountain West, MAC, Pac 12, Summit, and WCC. In 117 days, he's worked games in 25 different states from coast to coast.

Just looking at the past two weeks, he's gone: Ohio to Michigan to Kentucky to New Jersey to Maryland to Illinois to Indiana to California to Michigan to Indiana to Illinois to Montana to Colorado, working 12 games in 14 days.

I don't know what the solution is, but when people complain about the quality of officiating in college basketball, I think one of the symptoms is pretty obvious.

 

[Erial_Lion]

There’s no work at all in assuming refs come and go for the same reasons people in all other jobs do. The work would be proving that assumption untrue.

Is there any objective data that shows the Big Ten officiating is worse than in other conferences? That seems to be a critical premise upon which the theory that the Big Ten needs to get better refs is built.

I’ve always felt the most objective way to evaluate officials is to look at their postseason assignments…the better the referee, the further they advance in the dance. The conference usually stacks up pretty well in that regard.

Some higher profile guys are definitely getting more B1G games (Higgins did some now and then but he’s doing more, Jeffrey Anderson, Keith Kimble, Gaffney as others noted, etc). But some of it is also replacing the guys that retired like Bo, Eades, Wymer, or Lamont Simpson.

 

[mildone]

I’ve always felt the most objective way to evaluate officials is to look at their postseason assignments…the better the referee, the further they advance in the dance. The conference usually stacks up pretty well in that regard.

Some higher profile guys are definitely getting more B1G games (Higgins did some now and then but he’s doing more, Jeffrey Anderson, Keith Kimble, Gaffney as others noted, etc). But some of it is also replacing the guys that retired like Bo, Eades, Wymer, or Lamont Simpson.

That makes perfect sense.