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The Pacheco Lesson

ru-baby

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Aug 11, 2001
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Pacheco's situation tells us much about the state of RU football affairs. Much hand wringing occurs here about coaching, schemes and the many reasons RU struggled this year. Pacheco's situation should bring the issues into more clarity.

What is that situation? One year ago Pacheco started at RU as a rb and did not register a 100 yard game. Total of over 640 yards. Had many plays drawn up for him and emphasis in the offense was not the issue.

One year later, he has a 100+ yard game in the NFL. Against infinitely better competition. What does it tell us? That he is now surrounded by talent that is at or exceeds his competition-but while at RU he was surrounded by talent below the majority of the teams played. No scheming could overcome getting hit before the line of scrimmage, or having no holes. And when injuries occurred, including to the OL, there was no depth to keep things from falling off worse.

RU is playing at a talent deficiency in most games, and worse, at a depth deficiency. The latter makes games later in the season (when it was Mich MSU PSU) all the more challenging, as an already tilted talent differential, became even more pronounced.

Looking at the entire schedule I would say RU had:
- a talent advantage in 2 definite games (Temple and Wagner)
-a talent toss up against BC and Indiana (perhaps better than Indiana but close)
-a talent differential in 8 other games

A 4-8 record can be construed as winning two toss up games talent wise. Our local media and posters somehow issue predictions that presume RU has talent sufficient to win B10 games (not when pushed though) with Nebraska Iowa and MSU. It's just not so. Those would all have bene upsets. Thus, the Pacheco lesson should tell us somewhat what to expect, and should note that two toss ups were won. 4-8 with this lesson in hand is not not terribly unexpected.

Was there coaching issues that made situations worse-yes definitely. Did it tilt outcomes--can argue Iowa and Nebraska but then you have to give advantage to BC and Indiana wins so it's at best a wash.

Can make an argument that the team and coaches overperformed against Mich and PSU until the talent differential caught up (as did the experience differential at qb).

Thus, yes the offsides on kickoffs were maddening. Not pulling an upset is a bummer. But some perspective on what we are dealing with is needed. RU won the games it should have-also won two toss ups, but won none it was trying for an upset (even slight ones). Talent and DEPTH is needed to get over the hump. Yes coaching needs to re-evaluate but to ignore the obvious Pacheco lesson misses the main point. Lewis, Powell, Melton, Hamilton, Bailey, Brown, Monangai and Long are all players who can compete in B10 games. But more are needed, especially on O and especially at wr and likely OL. This is the lesson we are hit over the head with. We have talent to hang in there for awhile-but not get over the top. And coaching didnt this year tip any non toss up games. Both are needed to notch some B 10 wins, with the talent and depth clearly being the main issue.
 
I don’t think anyone is questioning the talent disparity between us and teams like psu, Michigan, and Ohio state. I disagree though that the talent disparity is as big between us and teams like Maryland though. By and large we have recruited similarly to Maryland, they had a high class ranking in 21’ due to two 5* recruits however both have transferred out.

No one was expecting us to compete with the blue bloods this year. It’s entirely different when we lose by a combined 68-0 to Minnesota and Maryland. Let’s just look at those teams results vs PSU, Minn lost 45-17 and Maryland lost 30-0, so in other words both of those teams are what could be considered ‘middling’ big ten programs, they do not play OSU, PSU, or MICH close either, but they are light years ahead of us on the field.

I agree there is a talent disparity, however I refuse to believe Maryland is 37-0 more talented than us…. I just don’t believe that, I’m not saying they aren’t more talented, obviously having an experienced qb helps, but those are the games that are sounding the alarm on Greg.. we can’t be losing 37-0 to Maryland to close out the season in year 3. It simply can’t happen.
 
I see Pacheco being used a lot between the tackles and just off tackle, I wonder why we ran so many stretch plays for him. Rutgers only ran him 167 times in 12 games that's 14 carries a game and he had a 3.87 avg..

I would have made him the bell cow back and fed it to him at least 25 times a game like Minny does with Ibraham. He's got over 300 carries in 11 games. That's coaching not talent, just like Ibrahim wears down defenses and gets the bulk of his yards in the 4th, Pacheco just wasn't given the chance.
 
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I don’t think anyone is questioning the talent disparity between us and teams like psu, Michigan, and Ohio state. I disagree though that the talent disparity is as big between us and teams like Maryland though. By and large we have recruited similarly to Maryland, they had a high class ranking in 21’ due to two 5* recruits however both have transferred out.

No one was expecting us to compete with the blue bloods this year. It’s entirely different when we lose by a combined 68-0 to Minnesota and Maryland. Let’s just look at those teams results vs PSU, Minn lost 45-17 and Maryland lost 30-0, so in other words both of those teams are what could be considered ‘middling’ big ten programs, they do not play OSU, PSU, or MICH close either, but they are light years ahead of us on the field.

I agree there is a talent disparity, however I refuse to believe Maryland is 37-0 more talented than us…. I just don’t believe that, I’m not saying they aren’t more talented, obviously having an experienced qb helps, but those are the games that are sounding the alarm on Greg.. we can’t be losing 37-0 to Maryland to close out the season in year 3. It simply can’t happen.
Hen you have a QB and a offensive game plan, they are 37 points better then us. Locksley knew he needed a QB and got one that he coaches at Bama. He went out last year and got one from GT. They got a receiver from Florida, recruited TEs that can catch. Lockley is know as an offensive coach which makes it easier to bring in offensive transfers. We have a defensive coach who teams aren’t know for offense, which makes it difficult to bring in the offensive players we need to compete in the Big 10. If you can score you can’t win
 
I see Pacheco being used a lot between the tackles and just off tackle, I wonder why we ran so many stretch plays for him. Rutgers only ran him 167 times in 12 games that's 14 carries a game and he had a 3.87 avg..

I would have made him the bell cow back and fed it to him at least 25 times a game like Minny does with Ibraham. He's got over 300 carries in 11 games. That's coaching not talent, just like Ibrahim wears down defenses and gets the bulk of his yards in the 4th, Pacheco just wasn't given the chance.
I agree with what you are saying, but there are other factors as well. When the team is down 2 TDs or more, you can't run as much. Also, when the offense goes 3 and out on multiple possessions there just aren't enough plays in a game to run the ball.
 
I agree with what you are saying, but there are other factors as well. When the team is down 2 TDs or more, you can't run as much. Also, when the offense goes 3 and out on multiple possessions there just aren't enough plays in a game to run the ball.
I know what you're saying, but we did a lot of shuffling in and out of RB's last year. Ibrahim only leaves the field when he calls for a breather. One thing Row the Boat dude does well, is he identifies his best players and rides them the whole game. We play Pop Warner where everyone gets a chance with some foolish notion that we'll be fresher in the 4th qtr..
 
I see Pacheco being used a lot between the tackles and just off tackle, I wonder why we ran so many stretch plays for him. Rutgers only ran him 167 times in 12 games that's 14 carries a game and he had a 3.87 avg..

I would have made him the bell cow back and fed it to him at least 25 times a game like Minny does with Ibraham. He's got over 300 carries in 11 games. That's coaching not talent, just like Ibrahim wears down defenses and gets the bulk of his yards in the 4th, Pacheco just wasn't given the chance.

Stretch plays because there were no holes inside. Limited carries because you don't run when it's 3rd and 9. Different with KC when it's 3rd and 3.
 
Pacheco's situation tells us much about the state of RU football affairs. Much hand wringing occurs here about coaching, schemes and the many reasons RU struggled this year. Pacheco's situation should bring the issues into more clarity.

What is that situation? One year ago Pacheco started at RU as a rb and did not register a 100 yard game. Total of over 640 yards. Had many plays drawn up for him and emphasis in the offense was not the issue.

One year later, he has a 100+ yard game in the NFL. Against infinitely better competition. What does it tell us? That he is now surrounded by talent that is at or exceeds his competition-but while at RU he was surrounded by talent below the majority of the teams played. No scheming could overcome getting hit before the line of scrimmage, or having no holes. And when injuries occurred, including to the OL, there was no depth to keep things from falling off worse.

RU is playing at a talent deficiency in most games, and worse, at a depth deficiency. The latter makes games later in the season (when it was Mich MSU PSU) all the more challenging, as an already tilted talent differential, became even more pronounced.

Looking at the entire schedule I would say RU had:
- a talent advantage in 2 definite games (Temple and Wagner)
-a talent toss up against BC and Indiana (perhaps better than Indiana but close)
-a talent differential in 8 other games

A 4-8 record can be construed as winning two toss up games talent wise. Our local media and posters somehow issue predictions that presume RU has talent sufficient to win B10 games (not when pushed though) with Nebraska Iowa and MSU. It's just not so. Those would all have bene upsets. Thus, the Pacheco lesson should tell us somewhat what to expect, and should note that two toss ups were won. 4-8 with this lesson in hand is not not terribly unexpected.

Was there coaching issues that made situations worse-yes definitely. Did it tilt outcomes--can argue Iowa and Nebraska but then you have to give advantage to BC and Indiana wins so it's at best a wash.

Can make an argument that the team and coaches overperformed against Mich and PSU until the talent differential caught up (as did the experience differential at qb).

Thus, yes the offsides on kickoffs were maddening. Not pulling an upset is a bummer. But some perspective on what we are dealing with is needed. RU won the games it should have-also won two toss ups, but won none it was trying for an upset (even slight ones). Talent and DEPTH is needed to get over the hump. Yes coaching needs to re-evaluate but to ignore the obvious Pacheco lesson misses the main point. Lewis, Powell, Melton, Hamilton, Bailey, Brown, Monangai and Long are all players who can compete in B10 games. But more are needed, especially on O and especially at wr and likely OL. This is the lesson we are hit over the head with. We have talent to hang in there for awhile-but not get over the top. And coaching didnt this year tip any non toss up games. Both are needed to notch some B 10 wins, with the talent and depth clearly being the main issue.
Very interesting analysis. Let's bear in mind that the Kansas City Chiefs have some guy named Patrick Mahomes playing quarterback. There is a rumor he has some pretty good receivers to throw to like someone named Travis Kelce. It's much easier to succeed as a running back when your team has a passing attack so that the defense can't key on you on first and second downs. That said, it's not news that our OL needs improvement.
 
Yes Mahomes makes a huge difference and we should not be shut out by Maryland.

But not having a talent advantage in any game lost is a relevant stat, as is winning two toss ups. Those two facts get overlooked far too often in the postings here, not acknowledging that a thin depth team will suffer more as the season gets to an end.

Talent has been upgraded, just not yet deep and mostly the qb issue. Playing most of the season with 3rd string and then a really as it turns out inexperienced qb the others really hurt.

Best series I saw all year likely was Vedral first series against Nebraska until thumb worsened. Him healthy would have had team competing in more games but may not have changed more than one result. Depth and qb were the real issues this year, which are often overlooked here with all the coaching discussions.
 
But is the talent disparity increasing, declining or staying the same compared to the rest of the conference?
The whole argument for HC Schiano was that he (and only he) could close that talent gap faster than anyone else.

With early prediction by many here of another 3-4 win season - what's going on?
 
But is the talent disparity increasing, declining or staying the same compared to the rest of the conference?
The whole argument for HC Schiano was that he (and only he) could close that talent gap faster than anyone else.

With early prediction by many here of another 3-4 win season - what's going on?
It’s helter-skelter.
It improves in one area and regresses in another.
Always disjointed.
I know it’s a long time ago, but 2006 offense had several position groups amongst the Nation’s best
 
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I don’t think anyone is questioning the talent disparity between us and teams like psu, Michigan, and Ohio state. I disagree though that the talent disparity is as big between us and teams like Maryland though. By and large we have recruited similarly to Maryland, they had a high class ranking in 21’ due to two 5* recruits however both have transferred out.

No one was expecting us to compete with the blue bloods this year. It’s entirely different when we lose by a combined 68-0 to Minnesota and Maryland. Let’s just look at those teams results vs PSU, Minn lost 45-17 and Maryland lost 30-0, so in other words both of those teams are what could be considered ‘middling’ big ten programs, they do not play OSU, PSU, or MICH close either, but they are light years ahead of us on the field.

I agree there is a talent disparity, however I refuse to believe Maryland is 37-0 more talented than us…. I just don’t believe that, I’m not saying they aren’t more talented, obviously having an experienced qb helps, but those are the games that are sounding the alarm on Greg.. we can’t be losing 37-0 to Maryland to close out the season in year 3. It simply can’t happen.
But no turnovers so Schiano’s game plan went 1-0 on Saturday. The team went 0-1, but Schiano was more than pleased with things. Was so positive and smug in the presser.
 
But no turnovers so Schiano’s game plan went 1-0 on Saturday. The team went 0-1, but Schiano was more than pleased with things. Was so positive and smug in the presser.

First it was winning Time of Possession and then it was winning the Turnover Battle.
We seem to focus on winning everything except actually trying to win on the scoreboard.
 
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Pacheco's situation tells us much about the state of RU football affairs. Much hand wringing occurs here about coaching, schemes and the many reasons RU struggled this year. Pacheco's situation should bring the issues into more clarity.

What is that situation? One year ago Pacheco started at RU as a rb and did not register a 100 yard game. Total of over 640 yards. Had many plays drawn up for him and emphasis in the offense was not the issue.

One year later, he has a 100+ yard game in the NFL. Against infinitely better competition. What does it tell us? That he is now surrounded by talent that is at or exceeds his competition-but while at RU he was surrounded by talent below the majority of the teams played. No scheming could overcome getting hit before the line of scrimmage, or having no holes. And when injuries occurred, including to the OL, there was no depth to keep things from falling off worse.

RU is playing at a talent deficiency in most games, and worse, at a depth deficiency. The latter makes games later in the season (when it was Mich MSU PSU) all the more challenging, as an already tilted talent differential, became even more pronounced.

Looking at the entire schedule I would say RU had:
- a talent advantage in 2 definite games (Temple and Wagner)
-a talent toss up against BC and Indiana (perhaps better than Indiana but close)
-a talent differential in 8 other games

A 4-8 record can be construed as winning two toss up games talent wise. Our local media and posters somehow issue predictions that presume RU has talent sufficient to win B10 games (not when pushed though) with Nebraska Iowa and MSU. It's just not so. Those would all have bene upsets. Thus, the Pacheco lesson should tell us somewhat what to expect, and should note that two toss ups were won. 4-8 with this lesson in hand is not not terribly unexpected.

Was there coaching issues that made situations worse-yes definitely. Did it tilt outcomes--can argue Iowa and Nebraska but then you have to give advantage to BC and Indiana wins so it's at best a wash.

Can make an argument that the team and coaches overperformed against Mich and PSU until the talent differential caught up (as did the experience differential at qb).

Thus, yes the offsides on kickoffs were maddening. Not pulling an upset is a bummer. But some perspective on what we are dealing with is needed. RU won the games it should have-also won two toss ups, but won none it was trying for an upset (even slight ones). Talent and DEPTH is needed to get over the hump. Yes coaching needs to re-evaluate but to ignore the obvious Pacheco lesson misses the main point. Lewis, Powell, Melton, Hamilton, Bailey, Brown, Monangai and Long are all players who can compete in B10 games. But more are needed, especially on O and especially at wr and likely OL. This is the lesson we are hit over the head with. We have talent to hang in there for awhile-but not get over the top. And coaching didnt this year tip any non toss up games. Both are needed to notch some B 10 wins, with the talent and depth clearly being the main issue.
Ok we pretty much knew we have a talent deficit and we all knew gleeson did not use him right.
 
Ok we pretty much knew we have a talent deficit and we all knew gleeson did not use him right.
You mean Schiano didn’t use him right, just like he didn’t use Rice right.

Rice was very good catching screens in the NFL but few passes to him in college. And did anyone see a single screen this year to slow the pass rush ? Just one ? No.

Had nothing to do with Gleeson or NC. It’s the very short Schiano playbook.
 
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You mean Schiano didn’t use him right, just like he didn’t use Rice right.

Rice was very good catching screens in the NFL but few passes to him in college. And did anyone see a single screen this year to slow the pass rush ? Just one ? No.

Had nothing to do with Gleeson or NC. It’s the very short Schiano playbook.
OMG I don’t even know what to tell you . Rice ? Did Schiano f your girl ? Jesus !
 
I see Pacheco being used a lot between the tackles and just off tackle, I wonder why we ran so many stretch plays for him. Rutgers only ran him 167 times in 12 games that's 14 carries a game and he had a 3.87 avg..

I would have made him the bell cow back and fed it to him at least 25 times a game like Minny does with Ibraham. He's got over 300 carries in 11 games. That's coaching not talent, just like Ibrahim wears down defenses and gets the bulk of his yards in the 4th, Pacheco just wasn't given the chance.
Our brilliant coaches thought running all the way to the sideline and then turning upfield would be a good idea
 
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But no turnovers so Schiano’s game plan went 1-0 on Saturday. The team went 0-1, but Schiano was more than pleased with things. Was so positive and smug in the presser.
The score does not matter to Greg. All that matters is that he is always right and can’t be questioned.
 
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I see Pacheco being used a lot between the tackles and just off tackle, I wonder why we ran so many stretch plays for him

Well if you can't open holes in the middle, you stretch things out and hope to find a crease.
That also eats the clock.
RU was doing the triple option without the dive or the pitch
Problem was the B1G LBs were fast too.

RU's main problem has always been the lines and especialy OL
In my mind, Schiano's upward trajectory ended in 2010 because the OL was awful and RU's best QB of the 2000s was getting beat to a pulp.
A 2009 freshman All-American became a 2010 study in concusions behind an OL that set D1 record for sacks allowed.
Seemed like every year there were too many WRs, RBs and ATHs recruited by RU but OL recuits were like looking for chickens with teeth

B1G sends more OL to NFL that any other conference, and that's a reason the teams can be so good.
 
OMG I don’t even know what to tell you . Rice ? Did Schiano f your girl ? Jesus !
Point was, he was a very good player yet GS didn’t allow screens then and doesn’t now. Rice was excellent in the NFL as a receiver out of the backfield
 
You mean Schiano didn’t use him right, just like he didn’t use Rice right.

Rice was very good catching screens in the NFL but few passes to him in college. And did anyone see a single screen this year to slow the pass rush ? Just one ? No.

Had nothing to do with Gleeson or NC. It’s the very short Schiano playbook.

It might have had something to do with Brian Leonard catching those passes. He caught 38 in 06, and they were almost all were swing passes or screens, both of which slow the pass rush. Rice added 20.
 
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It was obvious that Pacheco had talent. It was equally obvious that he was playing behind a bad OL in a poorly coached and conceived offense. He went from that to playing behind one of the better OLs in the NFL for one of the best offensive minds in the NFL.
 
The fact that he is doing better in the NFL than in college tells you all you need to know.

Rutgers O-line could not open holes for him to run through and the blocking down field was horrible.

The O-line has been a problem for years and if it is not fixed Rutgers will continue to struggle.
 
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