Vetrone to Saint Johns ?

[willisneverrana43]

I really think you are overstating the level of recruiting Jay Young was involved in and downplaying the ability of Karl Hobbs and Brandin Knight. We are talking about a 3rd assistant coach position as if filling this position doesn't come with specific requirements.

If an assistant is a #1 or # 2 at another school, that assistant enjoys certain responsibilities and experience (and pay) and it is not a magic wand to ask that #1 or 2 assistant at another school, to take a step back and new job, unless they need to or it's an opportunity to good to pass up.

It is surprising to continue to see as many misguided or vague postings indicating something is wrong or that RU has not secured some wiggle room or benefit of the doubt. Most if not all of the "what RU should be doing" is based on a football program or looking at a program that employs 10 true coaches and of those 2, you either have 1 true Offensive coordinator or co-offensive coordinators in football. You can maneuver much easier in football to make a coaching hire and have that person handle the passing game, running game, WRs or TEs or RBs because they're all pieces to the puzzle.....same on the defensive side of the ball.

It is rare to ask a football staff not named Alabama or LSU, Texas, Clemson etc, to hire former HCs and assign them the WRs or RBs.....

In hoops, you have 1st, 2nd and 3rd assistants and the hires that fans expect are former #1 or current #1 assistants, willing to be 3rd assistant at RU. That rarely happens.

I think for a Shoes Vetrone, very good coach and resource, but being off the road or in a non recruiting role for more than a couple of years, could become obsolete, if he doesn't get back on a staff soon. You always want to maintain your contacts and stay out on the road and get to the locations and people that are used to seeing and connecting with you. If St John's makes that move, it would be a good time for him and also creates another spot or promotion from the younger hires that are also on the RU staff, but not currently 1 of the 3 official assistant coaches. TJ Thompson was brought on board a couple of years ago and he could secure a bump up in responsibilities and someone else can be brought in to create a stronger "bench" of resources.

Those spots all come with a pecking order and pay level. And what RU has done to build this program, is well thought-out and doesn't mean it's perfect, but it's pretty solid IMO.

As is often the case with your posts, there’s a lot of sound and fury signifying . . . .

It usually takes a lot of words to bury the obvious. RU needs an uptick in recruiting. For instance, it’s not as if Pike didn’t go after the better recruits that he didn’t get for last year’s recruiting class and instead purposely targeted only the guys he got who had few major offers and then hardly played. He offered the other guys. He just didn’t get them. Look at his offer lists. His plan hasn’t been to target under-recruited guys that he likes and fit them into his system. It’s been what he has had to do because he hasn’t gotten the better recruits that he offered regularly enough. He’s getting recruits that he could have gotten without the $125 million training center.

This is not to say that he hasn’t done a very good job. He has. He can coach. We’re lucky to have him. But his recruiting could get a whole lot better. And so whether you want to blather on about how many coaches a college basketball team has or the distance between the hoop and the foul line or your favorite color, Pike should be looking to improve his recruiting. And one way to do that is to get better recruiters on staff, particularly to exploit that mega expansive training facility that the administration just handed him.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Surprised about the negative take on Vetrone. Didn't he recruit DeShawn Freeman and Corey Sanders here before his role changed?

I don’t know how much of a positive that is.

 

[RutgHoops]

It usually takes a lot of words to bury the obvious. RU needs an uptick in recruiting. For instance, it’s not as if Pike didn’t go after the better recruits that he didn’t get for last year’s recruiting class and instead purposely targeted only the guys he got who had few major offers and then hardly played. He offered the other guys. He just didn’t get them. Look at his offer lists. His plan hasn’t been to target under-recruited guys that he likes and fit them into his system. It’s been what he has had to do because he hasn’t gotten the better recruits that he offered regularly enough. He’s getting recruits that he could have gotten without the $125 million training center.

This is not to say that he hasn’t done a very good job. He has. He can coach. We’re lucky to have him. But his recruiting could get a whole lot better. ....

I see a lot of posts like this. The '19-'20 team that would have made the tournament had five (5) Rivals 150 players (Doucoure, Mathis, Harper, Young and Mulcahy) plus kids like Baker, Myles, Yeboah and Caleb. The '20-'21 team that did make the NCAA tournament had six (6) Rivals 150 players (Doucoure, Mathis, Harper, Young, Mulcahy and Cliff) plus Baker, Myles and Caleb.

In '21-'22 we lose Doucoure and Young and add Jones and Hyatt, so if Harper is back we are back to five Rivals 150 players (Harper, Mulcahy Hyatt, Cliff and Jones),. So, if having five or six Top 150 rated kids on the roster "could get a whole lot better" what does that entail? Ten (10) Rivals 150 players? Eight? Other than Michigan and Michigan State how many B1G schools have eight to ten Rivals 150 players on the roster? Maybe Maryland?

Big Ten Standings last two years combined (teams w/ over .500 record)

Illinois 29-11
Iowa 25-15
Mich 24-13
Wisco 24-16
OSU 23-17
MSU 23-17
MD 23-17
Purdue 22-17
Rutgers 21-19

 

[willisneverrana43]

You've mentioned a whole lot of good but not great players. You haven't mentioned the majority of the last class, guys like Mag, Reiber, and Palmquist who barely had offers much less offers from top schools, and Jones, who barely made the top 150, your personal cutoff. Yours is a list created and used to reach the result you prefer, maybe in response to all the posts you just admitted reading, to suggest that Pike isn't losing a whole bunch of recruiting battles for better players than he's getting. He is, and he hasn't gotten shooters.

I mean, if you're good with his recruiting haul after just having $125mm dropped next to the Rac, you're entitled to that happiness. I see it as further evidence of a weakness that needs improving and that I hope he addresses and improves. You don't.

 

[RutgHoops]

You've mentioned a whole lot of good but not great players. You haven't mentioned the majority of the last class, guys like Mag, Reiber, and Palmquist who barely had offers much less offers from top schools, and Jones, who barely made the top 150, your personal cutoff. Yours is a list created and used to reach the result you prefer, maybe in response to all the posts you just admitted reading, to suggest that Pike isn't losing a whole bunch of recruiting battles for better players than he's getting. He is, and he hasn't gotten shooters.

I mean, if you're good with his recruiting haul after just having $125mm dropped next to the Rac, you're entitled to that happiness. I see it as further evidence of a weakness that needs improving and that I hope he addresses and improves. You don't.

After seeing what Pikiell has done with kids like Geo, Eugene, Caleb, etc. I am much more hesitant in writing off the '20-'21 class than you appear to be. Last year was brutal for even the most highly regarded freshman. Schools that had top five frosh classes like Duke, Kentucky and Auburn finished 9-9, 8-9 and 7-9 respectively.

As a parent who last year had a freshman in college, I can attest first hand how difficult last year was for that class.

We have had back to back NCAA worthy teams for the first time since the 70's. I do think it can be better going forward, but have been immensely impressed with the job Pikiell has done at Rutgers from a coaching, recruiting, program management perspective. The team was four good minutes from the first SW16 birth in almost 50 years. I don't care how much we dropped in a facility, the idea this wasn't a high water moment for Rutgers basketball is wrong (imo).

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I could give a rats a$$ what star a player is. If that is a gauge of recruiting the gauge is broken.

At best there has been a zero correlation between a players worth to this program and the amount of stars next to his name.

My opinion is not consensus.....I think the correlation is negative (albeit slight).

I believe our most "talented" players over the past 10-15 years have mostly set the program backwards.

 

[willisneverrana43]

After seeing what Pikiell has done with kids like Geo, Eugene, Caleb, etc. I am much more hesitant in writing off the '20-'21 class than you appear to be. Last year was brutal for even the most highly regarded freshman. Schools that had top five frosh classes like Duke, Kentucky and Auburn finished 9-9, 8-9 and 7-9 respectively.

As a parent who last year had a freshman in college, I can attest first hand how difficult last year was for that class.

We have had back to back NCAA worthy teams for the first time since the 70's. I do think it can be better going forward, but have been immensely impressed with the job Pikiell has done at Rutgers from a coaching, recruiting, program management perspective. The team was four good minutes from the first SW16 birth in almost 50 years. I don't care how much we dropped in a facility, the idea this wasn't a high water moment for Rutgers basketball is wrong (imo).

I can agree with much of what you write here except two things: one, I haven't written off the class but know that he didn't get the higher-ranked kids that he offered, wanted and preferred and had to take recruits for whom few other coaches were competing; and, two, while I have been immensely impressed with his coaching and program management, not his recruiting.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I can agree with much of what you write here except two things: one, I haven't written off the class but know that he didn't get the higher-ranked kids that he offered, wanted and preferred and had to take recruits for whom few other coaches were competing; and, two, while I have been immensely impressed with his coaching and program management, not his recruiting.

How does program management really differ from recruiting?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You've mentioned a whole lot of good but not great players. You haven't mentioned the majority of the last class, guys like Mag, Reiber, and Palmquist who barely had offers much less offers from top schools, and Jones, who barely made the top 150, your personal cutoff. Yours is a list created and used to reach the result you prefer, maybe in response to all the posts you just admitted reading, to suggest that Pike isn't losing a whole bunch of recruiting battles for better players than he's getting. He is, and he hasn't gotten shooters.

I mean, if you're good with his recruiting haul after just having $125mm dropped next to the Rac, you're entitled to that happiness. I see it as further evidence of a weakness that needs improving and that I hope he addresses and improves. You don't.

At some point you have to ask yourself why would someone want to come to Rutgers to play basketball. I know you realize we still have a ton to overcome to be a reasonable destination to a player that aspire to a professional basketball career.

It is possible that Pikiell is doing the best anyone can reasonable expect when it comes to "recruiting."

If I have a top 150 rated son I probably put Rutgers in the mix as a local school, a safety school (hoops wise) and Pikiell being a good guy. It wouldn't be consider in my top 3-4 schools. I don't know how Pikiell could reasonably expect to overcome this. A few more succesful seasons, sold out RAC and a few RU guys in the NBA would change this.

 

[willisneverrana43]

This is the problem faced by any coach seeking to turn around or build a program, football or basketball. It takes time, and for some coaches less, for other coaches more. I'm always willing to concede that it may take longer for Pike than your ordinary coach--that is, longer for the good work of his coaching and player-development to become more noticeable and attractive to the better recruits. Pike's also got the B1G, a league that can prep you for the NBA or a professional career. But having good recruiters on your staff helps that process.

 

[willisneverrana43]

How does program management really differ from recruiting?

Organize the program, ensure a system that allows players to develop, be ready and handle their academics, ensure that players trust you and can rely on you to help guide their future and provide practical help, make sure that you have the coaches and systems in place to train, develop and teach players, and generally all sorts of stuff.

 

[ancienthooper]

I realize that his staff recruits. What I'd like to see, though, is Pike put really good recruiters on his staff. When Young left, Pike missed an opportunity to bring in a strong recruiter as a replacement, instead promoting an advisor from within. Pike loses way too many recruiting battles, particularly with a brand-spanking-new $125mm facility sitting right next to the RAC, and I'd like to see him get recruiting help to pair with his coaching.

Every coach loses more recruiting battles than he wins, and all the $125m facility did was help level the playing field.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

As far as replacing Young with a strong recruiter.........I don't know it as a fact, but I'd make an educated guess that there were monetary restrictions that could be a huge obstacle. I don't know if our bloated (especially relative to revenue) athletic department has room for an increase in expenditures.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Every coach loses more recruiting battles than he wins, and all the $125m facility did was help level the playing field.

Yes, I agree. We all do. Although I might disagree that "all" the facility did was level the playing field, as I'd like to see it create an uptick in recruiting or, if not, a lot of that money was better spent elsewhere. But I'm missing your point. I think you and I will just disagree that Pike should be taking steps to improve this area beyond what it is now.

 

[AshCatchEm]

After seeing what Pikiell has done with kids like Geo, Eugene, Caleb, etc. I am much more hesitant in writing off the '20-'21 class than you appear to be. Last year was brutal for even the most highly regarded freshman. Schools that had top five frosh classes like Duke, Kentucky and Auburn finished 9-9, 8-9 and 7-9 respectively.

As a parent who last year had a freshman in college, I can attest first hand how difficult last year was for that class.

We have had back to back NCAA worthy teams for the first time since the 70's. I do think it can be better going forward, but have been immensely impressed with the job Pikiell has done at Rutgers from a coaching, recruiting, program management perspective. The team was four good minutes from the first SW16 birth in almost 50 years. I don't care how much we dropped in a facility, the idea this wasn't a high water moment for Rutgers basketball is wrong (imo).

I just doubt these kids will be coached up the same way without jay young. He instilled a relentlessness. He was the big man guru. And the best rebounders on the team were coached by him early on.

 

[knight82]

I could give a rats a$$ what star a player is. If that is a gauge of recruiting the gauge is broken.

At best there has been a zero correlation between a players worth to this program and the amount of stars next to his name.

My opinion is not consensus.....I think the correlation is negative (albeit slight).

I believe our most "talented" players over the past 10-15 years have mostly set the program backwards.

agree 100%

 

[Rhuarc]

So you’re suggesting that RU football is playing dirty?

Not all all, however I think it's well known that basketball recruiting with all of the AAU coaches and handlers involved is pretty dirty and has always been a huge topic on this board. Not so much on the football side.

 

[RUPete]

I don’t know how much of a positive that is.

That was a positive at the time. And it gave Pike some building blocks when he arrived.

 

[MADHAT1]

Anyone hear when Shoes is expected to be hired, or is he just in the running with a few others.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That was a positive at the time. And it gave Pike some building blocks when he arrived.

Team wins 6 B1G games in 3 years with Sanders. He leaves and they win more in 1 year than his 3 years.

 

[MADHAT1]

Team wins 6 B1G games in 3 years with Sanders. He leaves and they win more in 1 year than his 3 years.

The question is, how was the supporting cast around Sanders while he was at RU compared to the talent that was on the team after he left..
That could have a lot to do with those wins

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The question is, how was the supporting cast around Sanders while he was at RU compared to the talent that was on the team after he left..
That could have a lot to do with those wins

Kiss and Harper?

Harper wasn’t a factor until late in the season.

The team was better because the basketball was shared. Chemistry was so much better.

Talent has a huge step back. Freeman and Sanders were very talented.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Not all all, however I think it's well known that basketball recruiting with all of the AAU coaches and handlers involved is pretty dirty and has always been a huge topic on this board. Not so much on the football side.

Oh yes, it’s been a topic of discussion by internet experts on this board. And, as we know, if it’s on the internet, it’s true.

 

[RUPete]

Team wins 6 B1G games in 3 years with Sanders. He leaves and they win more in 1 year than his 3 years.

I see someone is an argumentative mood tonight. I’m not. You have to start somewhere.

 

[wheezer]

Just a thought to throw out there.

I think the lack of fans at our home games this past year, hurt our program, recruiting wise, more than most other programs

The one thing we were known for was the intense home environment, and we lost all that as a recruiting tool

Our gym was known for this on a national scale

I am sure it was a factor in landing Cliff, for example ..... if Cliff were to be a high school senior right now, would we still have been able to land him?

Or, do some think it made no difference with him and we get him anyway?

 

[RUsojo]

I see a lot of posts like this. The '19-'20 team that would have made the tournament had five (5) Rivals 150 players (Doucoure, Mathis, Harper, Young and Mulcahy) plus kids like Baker, Myles, Yeboah and Caleb. The '20-'21 team that did make the NCAA tournament had six (6) Rivals 150 players (Doucoure, Mathis, Harper, Young, Mulcahy and Cliff) plus Baker, Myles and Caleb.

In '21-'22 we lose Doucoure and Young and add Jones and Hyatt, so if Harper is back we are back to five Rivals 150 players (Harper, Mulcahy Hyatt, Cliff and Jones),. So, if having five or six Top 150 rated kids on the roster "could get a whole lot better" what does that entail? Ten (10) Rivals 150 players? Eight? Other than Michigan and Michigan State how many B1G schools have eight to ten Rivals 150 players on the roster? Maybe Maryland?

Big Ten Standings last two years combined (teams w/ over .500 record)

Illinois 29-11
Iowa 25-15
Mich 24-13
Wisco 24-16
OSU 23-17
MSU 23-17
MD 23-17
Purdue 22-17
Rutgers 21-19

If you just look at the kids in the top 150 we secured and consider the programs that actually pursued the guys you mentioned heavily, only Cliff was significantly coveted player (and since then Jones). And Cliff will be a STUD both ends if they let him.

Shows how Pike coached the team up pretty well, constructed a cast that could support one another, and how big of an impact Yeboah and Young (and Ron) really made to take this team to the tournament.

 

[RutgHoops]

If you just look at the kids in the top 150 we secured and consider the programs that actually pursued the guys you mentioned heavily, only Cliff was significantly coveted player (and since then Jones). And Cliff will be a STUD both ends if they let him.

Shows how Pike coached the team up pretty well, constructed a cast that could support one another, and how big of an impact Yeboah and Young (and Ron) really made to take this team to the tournament.

Pikiell has led Rutgers to back to back NCAA worthy years for the first time in almost forty years. He has done an outstanding job at Rutgers. Full stop. Eventually he will have year that doesn't meet preseason expectations. It just Hasn't happened yet in his five years here.

Folks who want to run the guy down, feel free. Parse recruits with who offered and who didn't even though the kids he has brought in, en masse, have largely performed. I can find posts wanting to cut Young in his first year, run off Caleb, Eugene, Geo, Mathis, etc. I am a bottom line guy and Pikiell has exceeded every expectation I and most reasonable fans could have had thru five seasons.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Some fans need to take like 3 steps backwards and look at things from a big picture.

Success, at least initially, was not going happen maximizing recruiting rankings. That is what hasn't worked over the past 10-15 years. Pikiell was hired because of the success at Stony Brook. That success had ZERO to do with landing bona fide 3 and 4 star recruits.

We are in the middle of a process that is well on track. Success on the court is needed to have the ability to raise the general level of the program and to be at least considered by a higher level of recruits.

The program is advancing, but we still have a way to go. I think we are ahead of schedule.



.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Best players of the Pikiell era (not in order)

1. Myles Johnson - CAL riverside, Cal northridge, colgate, fordham, grand canyon, hawaii, lehigh, loyola marymount, ucSB, UTEP, Western Kentucky, Yale

2. Geo Baker - American, BU, Brown, Bryant, CC st, chattanooga, drexel, duquesne, fairfield, george mason, GW, holy cross, Kansas state, kehigh, la tech, UNH, Penn, SB, UVM, bill and mary

3. Eugene Omoruyi - AK LR, Iona, Loyola, and Siena

4. Ron Harper - FDU, GA St, Howard, Illinois college?. miami (oh), NEB, radford


The guys that are Pikiell's best "recruits"

Duke - 7 major offers
Mathis - 10+ major offers
Paul- 8 major offers
Cliff - too many to count
Jones- at least 6

 

[RUsojo]

What does asking my daughter to write an essay about her white privilege have to do with the teaching of history?

Pikiell has led Rutgers to back to back NCAA worthy years for the first time in almost forty years. He has done an outstanding job at Rutgers. Full stop. Eventually he will have year that doesn't meet preseason expectations. It just Hasn't happened yet in his five years here.

Folks who want to run the guy down, feel free. Parse recruits with who offered and who didn't even though the kids he has brought in, en masse, have largely performed. I can find posts wanting to cut Young in his first year, run off Caleb, Eugene, Geo, Mathis, etc. I am a bottom line guy and Pikiell has exceeded every expectation I and most reasonable fans could have had thru five seasons.

No one is running him down. In fact most posts speak positively of him as a whole even though it's not always necessary to bring up the big picture when the conversation is focused on one segment of the program.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]