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What's criminal about players taking money?

vascosg

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Jan 13, 2008
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i can understand losing scholarship and amateur status but I don't see what the FBI could charge a kid. I would think it would be hard for the FBI to get them to step forward. I get the coaches could be subject to corrupt practices and tax evasion if they receive, still don't see big consequences from a jail perspective. I'm no lawyer but I have a hard time seeing some of the house of cards theories. Would love for the playing field to even out but color me skeptical on this.
 
If I understand your question, and if I can take a crack at some of the issues:

1) Taking ANY benefits other, non-student athletes would not have access to - even if not for yourself, but family members - by NCAA rules should mean instant - and retroactive - loss of amateur status, and the school for which you had played have all wins vacated in games in which that player played. Apparently, Cam Newton is the exception to these rules. So that is not criminal.

2) However, taking money, and not declaring it as income, might be construed as TAX FRAUD ... which is criminal - and a felony.

3) I had not heard a heavy focus in yesterday's news about ficus on the PLAYERS. Rather the focus has been on the FBI investigating agents, apparel companies and coaches.

4) What I do not know is whether student athletes could be accused of fraud, or defrauding, their colleges, if they take money from outside parties in order to choose a college ... I think there might have been some cases surrounding that in the past. But I cannot remember the exact arguments.

5) Apparently, one pressure point on the COLLEGES is that if any receive ANY Federal funding, those colleges could be subjected to charges of wire fraud of some sort, and risk losing Federal funding ... if a legitimate charge, that is a big financial hammer to force colleges to take action, and/or to cooperate with the investigation.
 
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#2 on jellyman's list is the first thing that came to my mind. But also agree with #3 as I haven't gotten the impression there's a motivation to go after the players as much as those surrounding them.
 
There are many ways to stop all of this, but appears NCAA doesn't appear at all motivated.

You can reduce heavily illegal activity by going after players with loss of amateur status and criminal penalties for tax evasion.

However I'd rather see it stopped on the other end. NCAA basketball and football are too big to not spend the resources and hire enough people to clean this up.

A subset issue in all of this are the players who really are in this to play basketball as a profession without any doubt. The NBA has been using the NCAA and it has to stop. All players should be eligible to play in the NBA when they are born. A pharmaceutical company is not going to tell a 12 year old kid who can cure cancer he has to wait. A 14 year old kid that can play the drums is not told he can't join the band until he turns 19. NBA is using colleges to be a farm system.

Bottom line...it is my belief that all people should be able to monetize their unique skill. College basketball is not the place.
 
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If I understand your question, and if I can take a crack at some of the issues:

1) Taking ANY benefits other, non-student athletes would not have access to - even if not for yourself, but family members - by NCAA rules should mean instant - and retroactive - loss of amateur status, and the school for which you had played have all wins vacated in games in which that player played. Apparently, Cam Newton is the exception to these rules. So that is not criminal.

2) However, taking money, and not declaring it as income, might be construed as TAX FRAUD ... which is criminal - and a felony.

3) I had not heard a heavy focus in yesterday's news about ficus on the PLAYERS. Rather the focus has been on the FBI investigating agents, apparel companies and coaches.

4) What I do not know is whether student athletes could be accused of fraud, or defrauding, their colleges, if they take money from outside parties in order to choose a college ... I think there might have been some cases surrounding that in the past. But I cannot remember the exact arguments.

5) Apparently, one pressure point on the COLLEGES is that if any receive ANY Federal funding, those colleges could be subjected to charges of wire fraud of some sort, and risk losing Federal funding ... if a legitimate charge, that is a big financial hammer to force colleges to take action, and/or to cooperate with the investigation.
This...."2) However, taking money, and not declaring it as income, might be construed as TAX FRAUD ... which is criminal - and a felony."
 
You cannot legislate integrity.

Kids have been taking money for years

Assistants have been offering it for years.

The HC is rarely involved----he tells these guys that I need you to go out and get players

What's changed are the numbers involved now.
 
There are many ways to stop all of this, but appears NCAA doesn't appear at all motivated.

You can reduce heavily illegal activity by going after players with loss of amateur status and criminal penalties for tax evasion.

However I'd rather see it stopped on the other end. NCAA basketball and football are too big to not spend the resources and hire enough people to clean this up.

A subset issue in all of this are the players who really are in this to play basketball as a profession without any doubt. The NBA has been using the NCAA and it has to stop. All players should be eligible to play in the NBA when they are born. A pharmaceutical company is not going to tell a 12 year old kid who can cure cancer he has to wait. A 14 year old kid that can play the drums is not told he can't join the band until he turns 19. NBA is using colleges to be a farm system.

Bottom line...it is my belief that all people should be able to monetize their unique skill. College basketball is not the place.
I think the loss of amateur status is certainly possible for those involved but the feds going after any of the players I'm less certain given what's out there now.

You can let players go to the NBA straight out of high school but how does that stop anything? I would think the "scheme" would just fall to the next subset of players below them no?

I've read some media guys saying the NCAA should have hired former FBI/law enforcement. I'm not sure how that works either. Once they're out of law enforcement they don't have the authority or resource to wiretap, do undercover stings, etc..like was done here over multiple years to get all these guys red handed.

This operation by the feds is probably one of the better deterrents in that "may" at least temporarily put the fear of god in some of these people. It's not just NCAA infractions or suspensions, it's possible jail time. Will it be a long term deterrent though? I don't know.
 
i can understand losing scholarship and amateur status but I don't see what the FBI could charge a kid. I would think it would be hard for the FBI to get them to step forward. I get the coaches could be subject to corrupt practices and tax evasion if they receive, still don't see big consequences from a jail perspective. I'm no lawyer but I have a hard time seeing some of the house of cards theories. Would love for the playing field to even out but color me skeptical on this.

The kids are not targets here nor are they key witnesses. If this prosecution helps rid the game of handlers, advisors and street agents thats a good thing. They are the targets and you can bet they will sing like canaries on other coaches and programs involved in similar deals.
 
You can let players go to the NBA straight out of high school but how does that stop anything? I would think the "scheme" would just fall to the next subset of players below them no?

I think letting players go to the NBA is the right thing to do and not part of a primary part of the solution.

I just think there has to be a path for people with unique skills and talent to make money. Obviously that path takes away cashing in the talent for a free college education. NCAAs are being asked to be the minor leagues for the NBA that goes against everything that college sports should be about.

To answer your question...you are probably right.
 
Just love how Little Ricky Pitino was bragging that Bowen fell into his lap--no recruiting effort involved. Except for paying him 100K.
TL

That doesn't necessitate him being aware of the payment... The fact that Rick bragged about it falling into his lap makes me think even more he legitmately may not have had an idea about the behind the scenes working. The motivation is clear, and quite frankly stronger for Adidas than it is even for Rick to funnel money. There's no shortage of boosters at UL that wouldn't have been willing to make that payment themselves. The fact that Adidas did it, makes it more complicated than how you're portraying it.
 
There are many ways to stop all of this, but appears NCAA doesn't appear at all motivated. . . .

However I'd rather see it stopped on the other end. NCAA basketball and football are too big to not spend the resources and hire enough people to clean this up.

Good luck with that! [eyeroll]
 
Either spend the resources to clean it up OR make penalties so great that it could deter further abuses.

I need to start seeing some death penalties.

You preaching to the choir, but my expectations for the NCAA are sub-basement level. They need to blowup that organization and start from scratch.
 
Either spend the resources to clean it up OR make penalties so great that it could deter further abuses.

I need to start seeing some death penalties.
What are those resources though? Hypothetically, say they have the money and are willing to spend it what can they do?

Do they have the authority to set up wire taps, set up stings, set up surveillance and execute multiyear operations? Unless they have authority like that how can you really stop it?

What happened just now was probably the best deterrent but how long term it is? Who knows. It'll be a temporary fear of god but then later?
 
Jelly

Actually....the players taking money would likely be construed as a GIFT and nothing wrong by the players, though against NCAA rules on many lefel

What is missing is the GIFT tax return that isn't being filed by the people giving the money away. $13,000 or more in a year you have to file a gift tax return.
 
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Large sums of money are changing hands without any taxation..that's where these people ****ed up. Government got involved cause they were owed money..now people are gonna get their legs broke
 
That doesn't necessitate him being aware of the payment... The fact that Rick bragged about it falling into his lap makes me think even more he legitmately may not have had an idea about the behind the scenes working. The motivation is clear, and quite frankly stronger for Adidas than it is even for Rick to funnel money. There's no shortage of boosters at UL that wouldn't have been willing to make that payment themselves. The fact that Adidas did it, makes it more complicated than how you're portraying it.

You really think that Adidas is going to funnel $100K to a recruit if they did not know that it was approved by Rick? SMH.
 
You cannot legislate integrity.

Kids have been taking money for years

Assistants have been offering it for years.

The HC is rarely involved----he tells these guys that I need you to go out and get players

What's changed are the numbers involved now.

HC knows what is going on.
 
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That doesn't necessitate him being aware of the payment... The fact that Rick bragged about it falling into his lap makes me think even more he legitmately may not have had an idea about the behind the scenes working. The motivation is clear, and quite frankly stronger for Adidas than it is even for Rick to funnel money. There's no shortage of boosters at UL that wouldn't have been willing to make that payment themselves. The fact that Adidas did it, makes it more complicated than how you're portraying it.
You can't be serious. My God you are gullible. Anyway I have this bridge for sale...
 
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What are those resources though? Hypothetically, say they have the money and are willing to spend it what can they do?

Do they have the authority to set up wire taps, set up stings, set up surveillance and execute multiyear operations? Unless they have authority like that how can you really stop it?

What happened just now was probably the best deterrent but how long term it is? Who knows. It'll be a temporary fear of god but then later?

all above my pay grade. too much $ in football and basketball not to siphon $50,000,000 away and hire 250 people.
 
Jelly

Actually....the players taking money would likely be construed as a GIFT and nothing wrong by the players, though against NCAA rules on many lefel

What is missing is the GIFT tax return that isn't being filed by the people giving the money away. $13,000 or more in a year you have to file a gift tax return.

52K....player, father, mother, and handler
 
You can't be serious. My God you are gullible. Anyway I have this bridge for sale...

Laying out the facts. Am I saying he definitely didn't know? No. But in all likelihood, it was an assistant who is aware of those intricate details. The majority of head coaches are intentionally not explicitly involved in the knowledge of those happenings. It's kinda like the mob. The boss may know the pieces and how they fit, but the direct knowledge and "sign off" of the occurrence was most likely by one of the assistants. Hence why you've seen 4 assistant coaches arrested. You really think Bruce Pearl would stick his OWN neck out on the line in Auburn? No. He's been down that path, and hence why his assistant was arrested. Rick did the same thing.

*Don't ask don't tell*
 
Laying out the facts. Am I saying he definitely didn't know? No. But in all likelihood, it was an assistant who is aware of those intricate details. The majority of head coaches are intentionally not explicitly involved in the knowledge of those happenings. It's kinda like the mob. The boss may know the pieces and how they fit, but the direct knowledge and "sign off" of the occurrence was most likely by one of the assistants. Hence why you've seen 4 assistant coaches arrested. You really think Bruce Pearl would stick his OWN neck out on the line in Auburn? No. He's been down that path, and hence why his assistant was arrested. Rick did the same thing.

*Don't ask don't tell*

You are saying two different things, head coaches like mob bosses may try to insulate themselves from the transactions, but that does not mean that they don't know what is going on.
 
Bottom line...it is my belief that all people should be able to monetize their unique skill. College basketball is not the place.

I like that. We are going to be hearing a lot of crap again about paying players. Jay Bilas just said on CNBC that he "free market" can solve this. And in terms of kids that can turn pro without college.. fine.. let them go.

But college sports have wide appeal because of the vast number of programs and how little guys can sometimes beat big guys. As soon as colleges start paying athletes, that is all over because what would then stop players from playing 5,6, 7.. 10 years for a college? Its a free market.. why should they be limited to 5 years to play 4? Sure, the very best will move onto the NFL and NBA.. but what about everyone else?

Then you have the problem of all those colleges and universities who build programs based on how things work TODAY. They invested huge sums to build facilities and hire coaches.. many of them do not have room in a budget to also pay athletes. The top programs.. some of which no doubt built their highly profitable rabid fanbases based on CHEATING.. they will have the funds to recruit and pay players. Everyone else need not apply.

And if Bilas has his way.. the top recruits in the nation will be being paid well at brand name programs while the backups make nothing. That should be just great in the locker rooms. And some programs might be able to provide token wages to backup players in revenue sports.. the very top revenue earning schools might be able to pay *something* to every athlete in every sport. Other will not.

Right now you can see that in some ports where some schools fully fund schollies for the whole team while others struggle to provide partial scholarships to some members of the team.

Do we really want to further segment sports like football and basketball? Isn't that why this scandal is a big deal? That some programs cheated to gain an advantage by using money... the solution is to legalize it by allowing programs to pay athletes? I think not.
 
Laying out the facts. Am I saying he definitely didn't know? No. But in all likelihood, it was an assistant who is aware of those intricate details. The majority of head coaches are intentionally not explicitly involved in the knowledge of those happenings. It's kinda like the mob. The boss may know the pieces and how they fit, but the direct knowledge and "sign off" of the occurrence was most likely by one of the assistants. Hence why you've seen 4 assistant coaches arrested. You really think Bruce Pearl would stick his OWN neck out on the line in Auburn? No. He's been down that path, and hence why his assistant was arrested. Rick did the same thing.

*Don't ask don't tell*
Oh please.
 
Actually....the players taking money would likely be construed as a GIFT and nothing wrong by the players, though against NCAA rules on many levels.
It would be a gift if no consideration was involved but I don't think that is the case. I don't think Louisville gives a recruit money without an agreement that that the recruit will play for Louisville.

I think a 1099 is missing, not a gift tax return.
 
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The crimes have nothing to do with tax. While the IRS may choose to prosecute tax fraud, this is about bribery and corruption.
 
I think letting players go to the NBA is the right thing to do and not part of a primary part of the solution.

I just think there has to be a path for people with unique skills and talent to make money. Obviously that path takes away cashing in the talent for a free college education. NCAAs are being asked to be the minor leagues for the NBA that goes against everything that college sports should be about.

To answer your question...you are probably right.

I like that. We are going to be hearing a lot of crap again about paying players. Jay Bilas just said on CNBC that he "free market" can solve this. And in terms of kids that can turn pro without college.. fine.. let them go.

But college sports have wide appeal because of the vast number of programs and how little guys can sometimes beat big guys. As soon as colleges start paying athletes, that is all over because what would then stop players from playing 5,6, 7.. 10 years for a college? Its a free market.. why should they be limited to 5 years to play 4? Sure, the very best will move onto the NFL and NBA.. but what about everyone else?

Then you have the problem of all those colleges and universities who build programs based on how things work TODAY. They invested huge sums to build facilities and hire coaches.. many of them do not have room in a budget to also pay athletes. The top programs.. some of which no doubt built their highly profitable rabid fanbases based on CHEATING.. they will have the funds to recruit and pay players. Everyone else need not apply.

And if Bilas has his way.. the top recruits in the nation will be being paid well at brand name programs while the backups make nothing. That should be just great in the locker rooms. And some programs might be able to provide token wages to backup players in revenue sports.. the very top revenue earning schools might be able to pay *something* to every athlete in every sport. Other will not.

Right now you can see that in some ports where some schools fully fund schollies for the whole team while others struggle to provide partial scholarships to some members of the team.

Do we really want to further segment sports like football and basketball? Isn't that why this scandal is a big deal? That some programs cheated to gain an advantage by using money... the solution is to legalize it by allowing programs to pay athletes? I think not.

There already is a free market. And there are multiple options. Kids can go overseas whenever they want. The free market has dictated that no entrepreneur thinks another professional basketball league in the US competing against the NBA is viable.
 
There is no federal statute against commercial "bribery.' Bribery is a crime when it is used to influence government or legal authority. Slipping the hostess a fin for a good table or paying a kid $100,000 to look favorable on some potential future agent representation is not a federal crime. State law is another matter with a wide slew of possibilities. Federal mail and wire fraud laws can come into play if the actors are bribing to engage in fraud. Seems like a stretch, although they are, strictly speaking, defrauding the NCAA into thinking the kids are compliant with rules.

Any person who willfully attempts to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof. However, for a teenage kid, who was paid an amount in $100,000 fewer than a couple of years from the point the tax was due, it would probably be considered Tax Negligence. Wouldn't need much of a lawyer to get off with the tax plus a minor fine.
 
Laying out the facts. Am I saying he definitely didn't know? No. But in all likelihood, it was an assistant who is aware of those intricate details. The majority of head coaches are intentionally not explicitly involved in the knowledge of those happenings. It's kinda like the mob. The boss may know the pieces and how they fit, but the direct knowledge and "sign off" of the occurrence was most likely by one of the assistants. Hence why you've seen 4 assistant coaches arrested. You really think Bruce Pearl would stick his OWN neck out on the line in Auburn? No. He's been down that path, and hence why his assistant was arrested. Rick did the same thing.

*Don't ask don't tell*
Well, we'll certainly see if these assistants roll over on their head coaches or not. All it takes is one to start squealing and the whole thing will come down.
 
It would be a gift if no consideration was involved but I don't think that is the case. I don't think Louisville gives a recruit money without an agreement that that the recruit will play for Louisville.

I think a 1099 is missing, not a gift tax return.

This is the heart of the matter...

You are 100% correct if the money came directly from the school. That smells like a employer-employee relationship and an income payment for services provided ...agree with that part

But if it comes from a booster? The booster isn't getting any tangible good for payment ...I would think that wouldcknsideres a gift and not income. It's gray for sure ...

And if it comes from the sneaker companies ? Even more gray. Is it Payment for gojng to school that wears their product. That smell likes income situation and not a gift ....

Of course, I'm not touching the legitimacy of funds being used either ...whole other argument
 
A couple of Pitino loyalists? are laying out an argument of plausible deniability in this case. The university punctured that bubble by firing him in an effort to cut their losses, so even they think he's guilty. Could an assistant approve a 100K payment to a recruit on his own? In Pitino's program?
TL
 
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