Why do people bring up HC Schiano 1.0?

batts

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I am in Zap's camp. The NIL completely changed the dynamics of recruiting. It's going to be the programs with large wealthy donor bases that are going to completely dominate Division 1 football and basketball. As a SHU BB fan, I could not be more pessimistic about the landscape of division 1 football and basketball. Sucks.
 

NickRU714

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Now how do you keep them if they’re offered money to go elsewhere?
Sam Brown a perfect candidate to be poached by a money is no object school in need of a stud RB

Players transfer.
Always have and always will.
It's not NIL but the no-sit out rule that's the problem (if you think there is one).

Didn't we just "poach" one of Syracuse best WR ever?
Was NIL involved? Don't know and I'm sure Orange fans don't care. He's gone regardless.
 

rutgersguy1

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Players transfer.
Always have and always will.
It's not NIL but the no-sit out rule that's the problem (if you think there is one).

Didn't we just "poach" one of Syracuse best WR ever?
Was NIL involved? Don't know and I'm sure Orange fans don't care. He's gone regardless.
I think it's fine and frankly seems like the talent is spreading out a little more at the top and then on down. You may lose players but you can also get players as well. I've always said playing time and opportunity is still important and there's a balance there between NIL and actually being able to see the field.

I just saw a tweet that about 2-4 SMU players are sitting out the rest of the season to preserve a redshirt and enter the portal when it opens. It was related to playing time and couple actually got playing time but there roles were being reduced or productivity was being taken by someone else. So you'll lose players like that but you'll get players like that too.


 

djrc89

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Now how do you keep them if they’re offered money to go elsewhere?
Sam Brown a perfect candidate to be poached by a money is no object school in need of a stud RB
I’ve said the same. This is all just message board conjecture but I’ve wondered whether we see Wimsatt again. We know there are characters in his ear
 

MADHAT1

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Why bring up Greg 1.
In his resume he had a successful rebuilding of a program. and Rutgers was in desperate need of a rebuild when the possibility of a Greg 2 era was being thought about .
So far it l;ooks like it will be a process that won't bring instant gratification, but RU did go to the Gator Bowl in Greg 2's second year, so it looks like the program has improved a bot and even after a blowout loss RU is still considered a team with a shot at a bowl invite after the regular season is done..
 

zappaa

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Why bring up Greg 1.
In his resume he had a successful rebuilding of a program. and Rutgers was in desperate need of a rebuild when the possibility of a Greg 2 era was being thought about .
So far it l;ooks like it will be a process that won't bring instant gratification, but RU did go to the Gator Bowl in Greg 2's second year, so it looks like the program has improved a bot and even after a blowout loss RU is still considered a team with a shot at a bowl invite after the regular season is done..
Your observation doesn’t address or take into consideration the differences in the recruiting landscape between then and now and retaining players.
No one said the team wasn’t improved.
My contention is the new rules (or no rules) make his job nearly impossible.
 

MADHAT1

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Your observation doesn’t address or take into consideration the differences in the recruiting landscape between then and now and retaining players.
No one said the team wasn’t improved.
My contention is the new rules (or no rules) make his job nearly impossible.
The landscape changes all the time, but Schiano has been in the game long enough to roll with the flow and find ways to bring in good players.
Also he has to overcome the negative publicity that seems to be a constant part of the media's handling when covering the football program and that part of the landscape hasn't changed.

Every program will have a retention problem so Schiano's Knights are not the lone ranger in that category.
It's just the defeatist attitude surrounding the RU FB fanbase makes them think Schiano is the only HC that has problems and that defeated attitude tells those fans he can't overcome them
Harder ,ye, but hard for some others too.
Impossibly , no the mission can be sucessful but don't expect instant gratification..

RU laid eggs against Iowa and Ohio State but against the Hawkeyes the D preformed well.
The RU O isn't much help with a 3rd string QB, with little experience, in charge and a suspect OL protecting him..
But despete all the moaning and growing about the season looking like a disaster, by some, the team is 3-2 and still in bowl contention.

One thing is many times programs step a little back during the time they are trying to improve , but the effort the team puts in makes a lot of their fans feel the program is headed in the right direction.

Recruiting , Portal & HS , can improve if this season shows RU headed towards a winning future .
Rutgers has a bad reputation because of it being l;ooked at as a loser by many , but Schiano overcome that before.
Greg2knows the landscape and right now is trying to seed a lawn that is in bad shape.
That he's done before asGreg1
 

NotInRHouse

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I think fans loving or hating a sports coach at all, under any circumstance purely related to sports, is irrational. Family and close friends, sure. Everybody else? Seems weirdly misplaced, very one-way, emotional bonding.

I have zero hate or love for GS, Flood or Ash. I don't have the sort of relationship with any of them that would warrant such strong emotions.

People use the terms hate and love when maybe they don't really mean them. If what they really feel is like/dislike, but they're using stronger terms for emphasis, then okay. But actual love and hate? Don't get it.

I think for some people it's hate and love in the real sense, some not.

At least from a time and energy perspective, if people channeled their distaste for GS, let's call it, into say, fundraising, we would never have to mention NIL again.
 
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NotInRHouse

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Schiano recruited NFL level talent from 2003 forward.
We were good because we had some of the best position groups in the entire country.
It’s not rocket science, if the current landscape doesn’t allow him to recruit and keep players (NIL/Portal out) his coaching and philosophies alone will not translate to wins.
I campaigned hard for a GS return, I have no doubt if NIL was under some restraint and control, he’d make us highly competitive.
The current model won’t allow us to compete….imo

Hindsight is 20/20. Did we know that Foster, Zuttah, Leonard, Rice, Britt etc were going to NFL starters? Hell even Teel made the practice squad with the Seahawks.

The reality is that GS took someone like Devin McCourty with no stars and made him a first rounder. Do you remember the level he played at in 09? He ran back the first play of the UConn game for a TD, and it wasn't even a surprise. That's how good he was by the time he was a senior, and he wasn't even a heralded recruit.

That's why I think at least for the moment the NIL thing is being overplayed. TXAM is probably the king of it...and they have nothing on the field to show for it at this point unless we're counting losing to Appy State. And I have seen B1G programs go hard on it that same way.
 
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brgRC90

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Your observation doesn’t address or take into consideration the differences in the recruiting landscape between then and now and retaining players.
No one said the team wasn’t improved.
My contention is the new rules (or no rules) make his job nearly impossible.
It depends on what you think his job is. If it's to get Rutgers up to an elite level then NIL makes that more impossible than ever, for everyone. If it's to win more games, I'm not sure NIL is so critical. Lots of coaches in the middle of the pack win a lot of games with rosters that aren't full of 4 star recruits. Iowa never recruits great classes yet they've been formidable on and off. I think NIL money will matter mostly at the very top.
 

yesrutgers01

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Hindsight is 20/20. Did we know that Foster, Zuttah, Leonard, Rice, Britt etc were going to NFL starters? Hell even Teel made the practice squad with the Seahawks.

The reality is that GS took someone like Devin McCourty with no stars and made him a first rounder. Do you remember the level he played at in 09? He ran back the first play of the UConn game for a TD, and it wasn't even a surprise. That's how good he was by the time he was a senior, and he wasn't even a heralded recruit.

That's why I think at least for the moment the NIL thing is being overplayed. TXAM is probably the king of it...and they have nothing on the field to show for it at this point unless we're counting losing to Appy State. And I have seen B1G programs go hard on it that same way.
here is the real concern with the current NIL - it has become a big factor in tampering- we saw it with the Pitt WR. Before he was even in the portal, he was getting 7 figure NIL offers from "Schools"

And while you are correct with the development of Rice/Britt/Foster/Zuttah/Sosa/Twins and even my son, Haslam...would they have stayed their entire career at a school if a big boy saw them and said we need to have them.
I know, loyalty has to count but, if you are playing and busting it for your team and they are offerring peanuts and you are seeing others that playing at your level getting cars and 6-7 figure deals- it gets very very tough.
 

NotInRHouse

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here is the real concern with the current NIL - it has become a big factor in tampering- we saw it with the Pitt WR. Before he was even in the portal, he was getting 7 figure NIL offers from "Schools"

And while you are correct with the development of Rice/Britt/Foster/Zuttah/Sosa/Twins and even my son, Haslam...would they have stayed their entire career at a school if a big boy saw them and said we need to have them.
I know, loyalty has to count but, if you are playing and busting it for your team and they are offerring peanuts and you are seeing others that playing at your level getting cars and 6-7 figure deals- it gets very very tough.

I appreciate that. But like any transfer it's a risk. You can stay at RU and start...or go to TXAM and lose to App State. Or go to Wisconsin and then they fire their coach. I get it- a college aged kid may ignore that risk- but I think we're a little early here to write the program off because of it.

We don't know where RU is going to land in all of this just yet. Right now, I feel pretty safe saying that NIL wouldn't have prevented the two freak plays that lost Iowa or a blowout against OSU. The meat of the schedule IMO starts Friday where at least talent wise we're going to get closer to even.
 
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yesrutgers01

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I appreciate that. But like any transfer it's a risk. You can stay at RU and start...or go to TXAM and lose to App State. Or go to Wisconsin and then they fire their coach. I get it- a college aged kid may ignore that risk- but I think we're a little early here to write the program off because of it.

We don't know where RU is going to land in all of this just yet. Right now, I feel pretty safe saying that NIL wouldn't have prevented the two freak plays that lost Iowa or a blowout against OSU. The meat of the schedule IMO starts Friday where at least talent wise we're going to get closer to even.
The only real risk is if you go and don't start. Guys with true NFL talent will show their skills on any team they go to. And these guys would have already been coached the right way to play the game and that is why another top school would be offering a big NIL to them.
 

koleszar

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IMHO, Gleeson (and maybe Greg is responsible) is overthinking things and making it too complicated. Too many QBs playing, particularly when the QBs are switched in a single set of downs. Nebraska has the worst defense in the B1G. They are last in rushing defense and close to last on passing defense. Put Simon in there, hand the ball off to Brown and Monangai, make them respect the run and pass the ball. It's not that complicated.
It's more than just the QB, they rotate every series every single position except the tackles and center. It's ludicrous causing us to look disjointed and confused. Find your best QB and stick with him. Find your best WR's and best 5 and stick with them. Find who's the hot hand at RB and make him your bell cow back.

Every series does not need mass substitutions to run a specific play. A little cohesion would allow guys to get comfortable with one another and into a groove. The staff is determined to make it a Chinese fire drill every series and it's clearly not working.
 
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mildone

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It's more than just the QB, they rotate every series every single position except the tackles and center. It's ludicrous causing us to look disjointed and confused. Find your best QB and stick with him. Find your best WR's and best 5 and stick with them. Find who's the hot hand at RB and make him your bell cow back.

Every series does not need mass substitutions to run a specific play. A little cohesion would allow guys to get comfortable with one another and into a groove. The staff is determined to make it a Chinese fire drill every series and it's clearly not working.
Nowadays, with the easy transfer rules and the NIL and so forth, it might actually make sense to try to get as many players significant playing time as possible. Otherwise, they might be gone at the end of the season.

I mean, I agree that some cohesion is a good thing. But RU isn't really in a position to be losing decent players these days.
 

zappaa

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Hindsight is 20/20. Did we know that Foster, Zuttah, Leonard, Rice, Britt etc were going to NFL starters? Hell even Teel made the practice squad with the Seahawks.

The reality is that GS took someone like Devin McCourty with no stars and made him a first rounder. Do you remember the level he played at in 09? He ran back the first play of the UConn game for a TD, and it wasn't even a surprise. That's how good he was by the time he was a senior, and he wasn't even a heralded recruit.

That's why I think at least for the moment the NIL thing is being overplayed. TXAM is probably the king of it...and they have nothing on the field to show for it at this point unless we're counting losing to Appy State. And I have seen B1G programs go hard on it that same way.
Everyone of those guys would have played in the NFL if they went to Montclair St.
I don’t believe GS “took” or “made” any of them into NFL players….especially Zuttah who could have gone anywhere, same with Britt.
GS gets credit for getting them to commit to Rutgers and keeping them here.
They were good enough to form multiple position groups among the best in America.
 
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yesrutgers01

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Everyone of those guys would have played in the NFL if they went to Montclair St.
I don’t believe GS “took” or “made” any of them into NFL players….especially Zuttah who could have gone anywhere, same with Britt.
GS gets credit for getting them to commit to Rutgers and keeping them here.
Want to laugh- some of those guys made it to the NFL just to spite Greg.

The other thing- to your point on Montclair St...I get what you are saying but it makes me think of a convo I had with Coach Flood just before the 2009 season started. My wife and I scheduled a meeting with Coach Schiano and Flood wanted to give us some time too.
Something Flood said stood out. He said that the difference between what he could do with a kid like Kevin at Rutgers was so significant that it would have been a crime to try to get him to go to Delaware. The lower level schools just would not have the training staff, facilities and time to develop him properly.

Greg did not directly develop the kids above. But, he did have some very good coaches and I don't believe Butler gets enough credit but he is very good.
Example of the opposite - I believe Nelson/Muller/Miller - came in with NFL potential tools and had already started to become those type of players until Ash got here.
 

mildone

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Hindsight is 20/20. Did we know that Foster, Zuttah, Leonard, Rice, Britt etc were going to NFL starters? Hell even Teel made the practice squad with the Seahawks.

The reality is that GS took someone like Devin McCourty with no stars and made him a first rounder. Do you remember the level he played at in 09? He ran back the first play of the UConn game for a TD, and it wasn't even a surprise. That's how good he was by the time he was a senior, and he wasn't even a heralded recruit.

That's why I think at least for the moment the NIL thing is being overplayed. TXAM is probably the king of it...and they have nothing on the field to show for it at this point unless we're counting losing to Appy State. And I have seen B1G programs go hard on it that same way.
There will definitely wind up being more than a few folks with severe cases of buyer’s remorse.
 
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mildone

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Want to laugh- some of those guys made it to the NFL just to spite Greg.

The other thing- to your point on Montclair St...I get what you are saying but it makes me think of a convo I had with Coach Flood just before the 2009 season started. My wife and I scheduled a meeting with Coach Schiano and Flood wanted to give us some time too.
Something Flood said stood out. He said that the difference between what he could do with a kid like Kevin at Rutgers was so significant that it would have been a crime to try to get him to go to Delaware. The lower level schools just would not have the training staff, facilities and time to develop him properly.

Greg did not directly develop the kids above. But, he did have some very good coaches and I don't believe Butler gets enough credit but he is very good.
Example of the opposite - I believe Nelson/Muller/Miller - came in with NFL potential tools and had already started to become those type of players until Ash got here.
IMO, Miller‘s biggest problem getting to the NFL was his lack of height, no pun intended.
 

MADHAT1

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There will definitely wind up being more than a few folks with severe cases of buyer’s remorse.
After feeling Melvin Tucker was Mark Dantonio and Duffy Daugherty rolled into one because of how good the program was last year ( his second there) Michigan State might be feeling a little of that right now with the 10 year $95 mil extension he received just before the 2021 season ended.
 

yesrutgers01

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IMO, Miller‘s biggest problem getting to the NFL was his lack of height, no pun intended.
That is mostly true...He may not have ended up on a game roster but could have had a shot, if nothing else on a practice squad.

But the coaching in his later part of his college career didn't even allow his height to become his only factor.

If there was a "portal" back then- same as the portal now- all 3 would have bolted along with our 2 to RB's.
 
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czxqa

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Schiano recruited NFL level talent from 2003 forward.
We were good because we had some of the best position groups in the entire country.
It’s not rocket science, if the current landscape doesn’t allow him to recruit and keep players (NIL/Portal out) his coaching and philosophies alone will not translate to wins.
I campaigned hard for a GS return, I have no doubt if NIL was under some restraint and control, he’d make us highly competitive.
The current model won’t allow us to compete….imo
We are very early in this new era and I have to wonder about the sustainability of this model, even for the likes of OSU, Alabama etc. How long can even these programs expect to be able to raise 40, 50 million or more every year for "NIL" over and above what's already being donated to keep the AD's running? Maybe the massive media payouts the BIG and SEC are getting going forward can offset it but who knows? Does the facilities arms race continue unabated? I don't think there's a single athletic director or program that doesn't wonder how they're going to fund this monster.
 

rutgersguy1

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After feeling Melvin Tucker was Mark Dantonio and Duffy Daugherty rolled into one because of how good the program was last year ( his second there) Michigan State might be feeling a little of that right now with the 10 year $95 mil extension he received just before the 2021 season ended.
I think that was a crazy contract as I do often these days lol. Big long term deals on short term results are bad biz to me. But having said that, I'll give Tucker some time. I doubt he'll be worth those numbers but he may not be as bad as what's currently happening. I don't follow recruiting but have read that's improving so we'll see.

Fisher is the one who has been at A&M long enough and has had top level recruits, yet is bumbling offensively and losing to App State etc... They have a bonfire at A&M right? I guess they must love throwing piles of money on it too lol.
 
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mildone

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That is mostly true...He may not have ended up on a game roster but could have had a shot, if nothing else on a practice squad.

But the coaching in his later part of his college career didn't even allow his height to become his only factor.

If there was a "portal" back then- same as the portal now- all 3 would have bolted along with our 2 to RB's.
Totally agree.
 

MADHAT1

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I think that was a crazy contract as I do often these days lol. Big long term deals on short term results are bad biz to me. But having said that, I'll give Tucker some time. I doubt he'll be worth those numbers but he may not be as bad as what's currently happening. I don't follow recruiting but have read that's improving so we'll see.

Fisher is the one who has been at A&M long enough and has had top level recruits, yet is bumbling offensively and losing to App State etc... They have a bonfire at A&M right? I guess they must love throwing piles of money on it too lol.
you're right , long term expensive extensions because HC had one successful season is kind of hard to condone.
My opinion is"
Something like Tucker received should be after a few ( 3-4) successful seasons (10 or more wins) not just one really good year.

I can understand a long term commitment , but a school friendly buyout if the success isn't there the next few years. .
Give the HC the raise, but make it so that raise don't cost ,too much, if the HC doesn't have continued success.
If the program proves to be a successful one ( at least 9 regular season wins) the next few years, salary looked into buyout.
 

rutgersguy1

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you're right , long term expensive extensions because HC had one successful season is kind of hard to condone.
My opinion is"
Something like Tucker received should be after a few ( 3-4) successful seasons (10 or more wins) not just one really good year.

I can understand a long term commitment , but a school friendly buyout if the success isn't there the next few years. .
Give the HC the raise, but make it so that raise don't cost ,too much, if the HC doesn't have continued success.
If the program proves to be a successful one ( at least 9 regular season wins) the next few years, salary looked into buyout.
I’d just give a big one time bonus say 3-5 million for 10+ win season. So it’s justified for that year but if it doesn’t continue it’s not a fixed long term cost.
 

rufeelinit

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you're right , long term expensive extensions because HC had one successful season is kind of hard to condone.
My opinion is"
Something like Tucker received should be after a few ( 3-4) successful seasons (10 or more wins) not just one really good year.

I can understand a long term commitment , but a school friendly buyout if the success isn't there the next few years. .
Give the HC the raise, but make it so that raise don't cost ,too much, if the HC doesn't have continued success.
If the program proves to be a successful one ( at least 9 regular season wins) the next few years, salary looked into buyout.
Didn't Tucker have leverage with LSU looking his way as their potential new HC?
 

rutgersguy1

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Didn't Tucker have leverage with LSU looking his way as their potential new HC?
There was some potential interest but who knows and no reason to feel like your held hostage and give out a ludicrous contract like that. If he wants to go let him. Very unlikely you’re losing the next Saban I’m most of these situations. Do your job as AD and find the next guy instead of thinking this guy is the end all be all.

Think about this, Dorell’s buyout at Colorado is 11.4M. Second to Frost right now. Who the hell was hiring him or even looking at him to even think about giving such terms. ADs are just patsies for agents.
 
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MADHAT1

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There was some potential interest but who knows and no reason to feel like your held hostage and give out a ludicrous contract like that. If he wants to go let him. Very unlikely you’re losing the next Saban I’m most of these situations. Do your job as AD and find the next guy instead of thinking this guy is the end all be all.

Think about this, Dorell’s buyout at Colorado is 11.4M. Second to Frost right now. Who the hell was hiring him or even looking at him to even think about giving such terms. ADs are just patsies for agents.
Chyrst is supposed to have negotiated a $11 mil settlement from Wisconsin , down from the $16 mil he could have fought for.
It is belived he did that to get paid off quickly and not have his salary at next program he goes to be taken out of the buyout Wisconsin owed him
 

rutgersguy1

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Chyrst is supposed to have negotiated a $11 mil settlement from Wisconsin , down from the $16 mil he could have fought for.
It is belived he did that to get paid off quickly and not have his salary at next program he goes to be taken out of the buyout Wisconsin owed him
Yea I saw that and think it was actually 19M settled for 11M but probably no offsets for future employment.
 

jsol_05

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There are definitely a lot of differences between Schiano 1.0 and now (B1G schedule, portal, NIL), but there are a lot of similarities as well. He took over a program that had driven all but a tiny niche of dedicated fan support, the talent level in the program was well below the teams in the league we are playing in, improved the defense and special teams first, etc).

But, when I say you should compare with his first tenure I mean the good and the bad.

Nothing tells me yet that he won’t be able to get the team to where they are pretty competitive against most of our schedule, led by the defense. Unfortunately, nothing tells me his team will ever have a powerful offense, avoid a WTF game against a weaker team in our schedule either, and the right offensive style can always tear apart his defense (Cincinnati could do it consistently back then).

The hire after Schiano 2.0 (however many years in the future that is will be huge). He will have set up a team that is poised to win if taken over by a better game day coach. Hopefully we don’t shit the bed like we did with the Flood hire. Nobody will be able to convince me that wasn’t a team that could have won a couple of BE/AAC championships with the right coach
Your observation doesn’t address or take into consideration the differences in the recruiting landscape between then and now and retaining players.
No one said the team wasn’t improved.
My contention is the new rules (or no rules) make his job nearly impossible.
It also does take into consideration of his sub 500 record. If we are gonna look at it we have to look at the whole thing. We can talk about Lville but what about New Hampshire.