Center or PF target?

[PSAL_Hoops]

New thought. Should we be targeting a natural center, or would be be better off to focus on a more versatile power forward bruiser.

I’ll throw WVU’s 2009-10 final four team out there as the proxy model for the latter thought. I know that team isn’t comparable from an experience perspective (several veteran returning players on it). They started Wellington Smith - stocky 6-7 kid at center. I think our backcourt can be better than that team’s. Truck Bryant was a frosh running the point. Butler was good, but I think the J Williams / Dylan Harper combo can be better. Ace seems like a similar style player to their Ebanks kid. I understand Kevin Jones came through for them to complement Smith, but it’s not like he entered the season as an impact player. Thoughts?

 

[carmenst]

We should target both for this year. With Lathan Somerville and Ogbole as the other big men, I would prefer to see Ace play primarily as a 3.

 

[Shelby65]

New thought. Should we be targeting a natural center, or would be be better off to focus on a more versatile power forward bruiser.

I’ll throw WVU’s 2009-10 final four team out there as the proxy model for the latter thought. I know that team isn’t comparable from an experience perspective (several veteran returning players on it). They started Wellington Smith - stocky 6-7 kid at center. I think our backcourt can be better than that team’s. Truck Bryant was a frosh running the point. Butler was good, but I think the J Williams / Dylan Harper combo can be better. Ace seems like a similar style player to their Ebanks kid. I understand Kevin Jones came through for them to complement Smith, but it’s not like he entered the season as an impact player. Thoughts?

seems we just added an undersized stretch 4 starter (which I am not in favor of) so we desperately need height and athleticism to compensate for his limitations.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

If Jwill is playing 27+ MPG that would leave only 2 perimeter threats in most lineups.

Can Ace guard a 3? Many teams could be a 6'4'' guard.

I'd prefer a Dane Danger type (not sure how to spell his name)

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

seems we just added an undersized stretch 4 starter (which I am not in favor of) so we need desperately need and athleticism to compensate for his limitations.

Martini doesn’t play a style like Wellington Smith. He has the versatility, but is far less physical. Suppose we were to roll with two guys who can slide 4 or 5 (Eugene another more physical example) - target a tough nosed 6-7 / 6-8 kid (Smith / Jones types from WVU) won’t cost anything close to what a Cliff would cost. We could arguably land a better all around player if we went in that direction. I understand we’d give up height but would still have Ogbole and Somerville as options. Pike tried to make Wolf into this but it failed. Maybe we could lure someone in who is already what we had hoped Wolf would become?

 

[seansherm]

Ideally you'd find both, but an all round center has to come first. His actual height isn't that important. Cliff is really only 6'9 ish, isn't he.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Ideally you'd find both, but an all round center has to come first.

Yes, ideally of course. Realistically we’re not going to get both though. The last spot will most likely go to an unproven with potential.

I’m pointing out an example of a team that was successful without a traditional center. I’m asking the question - if we can’t get a proven center, are we better off taking a guy who was a deep utility center elsewhere or land an experienced PF with enough size to play 15-20 minutes at the 5 a game?

 

[LeapinLou]

We need a rim protector. I can't see going after an undersized guy. UConn stole Cam from us. Can we steal Clingan?

I know the ship has sailed but Cliff would have been perfect.

@Shelby65 - get over it dude. Pikiell is happy to get Zach and so are 99% of fans. You've said your piece now please shut down the negativity.

 

[PatrickRU92]

no disrespect to anyone here, but people are WAY too enamored with giving guys slotted positions. The days of 1,2,3,4 and 5 are pretty much over.

Heres what you need --- ONE big man (exact size unimportant) who can play physical in the paint, rebound, have SOME modicum of offensive touch and MOST IMPORTANTLY can kick it out to the perimeter when doubled. Then you need 4 other guys preferably at least 3 of them threats to shoot the 3. Provided they aren't all 5' 11" this is how you win in college basketball.

For next year we just need someone who can play in the paint. Whether he's what you'd consider a 4 or 5 is irrelevant

 

[Scangg]

We already have 2 of those. Lathan and Martini

I'd rather a bigger, more athletic, above the rim type 5 who can protect the rim and dunk lobs to compliment Lathan who is more an offensively skilled below the rim bjg

 

[PatrickRU92]

We already have 2 of those. Lathan and Martini

I'd rather a bigger, more athletic, above the rim type 5 who can protect the rim and dunk lobs to compliment Lathan who is more an offensively skilled below the rim bjg

Martini is an unkonwn quantity, whether he can play on the blocks in B1G play is tbd. Lathan looks like a PERFECT front court player--everything we need, but as we all know freshman big men are unreliable.

I would take Cliff back in a minute FWIW, but he is not a good passer from the post. Granted he had no one to pass it to make shots.

 

[Eagleton96]

New thought. Should we be targeting a natural center, or would be be better off to focus on a more versatile power forward bruiser.

I’ll throw WVU’s 2009-10 final four team out there as the proxy model for the latter thought. I know that team isn’t comparable from an experience perspective (several veteran returning players on it). They started Wellington Smith - stocky 6-7 kid at center. I think our backcourt can be better than that team’s. Truck Bryant was a frosh running the point. Butler was good, but I think the J Williams / Dylan Harper combo can be better. Ace seems like a similar style player to their Ebanks kid. I understand Kevin Jones came through for them to complement Smith, but it’s not like he entered the season as an impact player. Thoughts?

I'd be OK with this.

 

[carmenst]

If Jwill is playing 27+ MPG that would leave only 2 perimeter threats in most lineups.

Can Ace guard a 3? Many teams could be a 6'4'' guard.

I'd prefer a Dane Danger type (not sure how to spell his name)

Let’s see what the final roster is before counting perimeter threats.

I think Ace would be more dynamic offensively playing on the perimeter.

Dain Dainja is who you are thinking of and I would take him.

There are a lot of different styles and lineups that we will face, I’m sure Pike will adjust our defense accordingly.

I just think we need experienced players that can rebound and protect the rim. Ogbole did not have a lot of minutes last year and Lathan is a freshman . I’m rooting for both of them to have huge years, but would want seasoned bigs that can get the job done when they are not in the game.

 

[seansherm]

Yes, ideally of course. Realistically we’re not going to get both though. The last spot will most likely go to an unproven with potential.

I’m pointing out an example of a team that was successful without a traditional center. I’m asking the question - if we can’t get a proven center, are we better off taking a guy who was a deep utility center elsewhere or land an experienced PF with enough size to play 15-20 minutes at the 5 a game?

We have Mag like, unproven with potential in Dorsch and Grant, I think he's more likely to just play them than bring another youth in.
For your scenario, I'd take the best proven big guy I can get, whether he played a 4 or a 5. You can definitely get by nowadays with two 4's vs the traditional, but need one of those 4's need to be above average, unless you are a team like Houston who is loaded with age, experience and guys that play bigger.

 

[RUsojo]

You need a rim protector/rebounder who can finish around the rim.

 

[Shelby65]

We need a rim protector. I can't see going after an undersized guy. UConn stole Cam from us. Can we steal Clingan?

I know the ship has sailed but Cliff would have been perfect.

@Shelby65 - get over it dude. Pikiell is happy to get Zach and so are 99% of fans. You've said your piece now please shut down the negativity.

As bench depth, he’s a good get. I don’t think he’s an upgrade as a starter. It’s not negativity, it’s my opinion.

I don’t think he’s the right piece for the team to make a splash next year in the conference or NCAAs next year.

He’s Andrew Kolbasovsky.

 

[Mr Magoo]

We need at least one physical rebounding veteran big man. He doesn’t need to shoot but the veteran part will be huge on next year’s team. The next two scholarships must be big men.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

We have Mag like, unproven with potential in Dorsch and Grant, I think he's more likely to just play them than bring another youth in.
For your scenario, I'd take the best proven big guy I can get, whether he played a 4 or a 5. You can definitely get by nowadays with two 4's vs the traditional, but need one of those 4's need to be above average, unless you are a team like Houston who is loaded with age, experience and guys that play bigger.

I’m not talking about a Mag type of kid. I’ll throw a name out there for better understanding of the type of kid I’m talking about. Keyshawn Hall - 247 lists him as 6-7 and weighing 255 (compare that with Mag who is also listed at 6-7 but 215 lb. Even if the 255 is exaggerated, he’s clearly in the 230+ range which is what I’m talking about in a kid who could slide 4-5 like Marini but more physical. Coming off a season where he scored over 16 ppg / 8 rpg and is a career 37.8% from 3. Also over 80% career FT shooter. I imagine kids like this have tons of suitors but the point I’m making is this type of kid rebounds a ton. We could play that type with Martini, Dylan, Ace, and J Williams. We’d have Somerville and Ogbole when we need to go bigger and then he could slide to the 4.

I’m just saying - those of you thinking we are going to get another guard or forward with these types of numbers and a proven traditional center are probably being unrealistic. Perhaps we can combine the two needs and focus on adding an all around better player because we’re probably not planning to shell out the 700k+ it’s going to cost to get someone like Cliff.

 

[Shelby65]

I’m not talking about a Mag type of kid. I’ll throw a name out there for better understanding of the type of kid I’m talking about. Keyshawn Hall - 247 lists him as 6-7 and weighing 255 (compare that with Mag who is also listed at 6-7 but 215 lb. Even if the 255 is exaggerated, he’s clearly in the 230+ range which is what I’m talking about in a kid who could slide 4-5 like Marini but more physical. Coming off a season where he scored over 16 ppg / 8 rpg and is a career 37.8% from 3. Also over 80% career FT shooter. I imagine kids like this have tons of suitors but the point I’m making is this type of kid rebounds a ton. We could play that type with Martini, Dylan, Ace, and J Williams. We’d have Somerville and Ogbole when we need to go bigger and then he could slide to the 4.

I’m just saying - those of you thinking we are going to get another guard or forward with these types of numbers and a proven traditional center are probably being unrealistic. Perhaps we can combine the two needs and focus on adding an all around better player because we’re probably not planning to shell out the 700k+ it’s going to cost to get someone like Cliff.

We don’t need another Cliff. We need height, hands and court awareness. Someone with offensive ability beyond dunking.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

We don’t need another Cliff. We need height, hands and court awareness. Someone with offensive ability beyond dunking.

Any proven starting center is going to go for 700k+. That’s the market value.

 

[Shelby65]

Any proven starting center is going to go for 700k+. That’s the market value.

Ok, which supports my point that we should have spent less on the two transfers leaving more for a 5.

If that means less talent in their roles, it’s still worth it.

Better to not have a stiff at the 5.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Ok, which supports my point that we should have spent less on the two transfers leaving more for a 5.

If that means less talent in their roles, it’s still worth it.

Better to not have a stiff at the 5.

No not necessarily. Chances are we’re nowhere near able to compete for the very best guys at 5 because there are so few of them and at some point, your better off aiming to be stronger everywhere else.

 

[LeapinLou]

I don’t think he’s an upgrade as a starter. It’s not negativity, it’s my opinion.

Who on this past season's team makes you feel like he's not an upgrade? Hyatt?

 

[LeapinLou]

I’m just saying - those of you thinking we are going to get another guard or forward with these types of numbers and a proven traditional center are probably being unrealistic. Perhaps we can combine the two needs and focus on adding an all around better player because we’re probably not planning to shell out the 700k+ it’s going to cost to get someone like Cliff.

Just look at the four teams left standing and it's pretty clear that you need a dominant rim protector to go along with a really good supporting cast. You may be right that we can't pull off bringing in a dominant center. But if we can't, our ceiling is lower than the final 4 next season. Probably lower than the Sweet 16.

Damn I wish Cliff would have stayed. So many people on this board that would bash him are going to regret it.

 

[Shelby65]

Lou - i think pursuing Martini impacted GG’s decision. Adjusting for guard play and team offense, GG is a better player.

I do not think Martini will be a better player than GG was or will be on our team.

 

[RUfan1977]

Lou - i think pursuing Martini impacted GG’s decision. Adjusting for guard play and team offense, GG is a better player.

I do not think Martini will be a better player than GG was or will be on our team.

I would have loved to see GG stay, but for this year’s team I think Martini will be a better fit. As today’s earthquake demonstrated, it is easy to get rattled. When this team does (and they will), it will be good to have an experienced player like him and also Acuff to calm things down.

 

[LeapinLou]

Lou - i think pursuing Martini impacted GG’s decision. Adjusting for guard play and team offense, GG is a better player.

I do not think Martini will be a better player than GG was or will be on our team.

There is every reason to believe Griffiths is going to have a solid career and play a lot better, especially in years 3 and 4. He certainly showed signs of it early in this season and in the last few games. If I had a choice between GG in his 4th year or Martini in his 4th year, I'd take the risk and pick GG.

But for the balance of this past season, GG was an unmitigated disaster on both sides of the floor. I think the vast majority of fans on this board agree with me.

As you say, you're entitled to your opinion. But it seems odd that anyone would objectively say GG is a better option for the '24-25 Scarlet Knights than Martini.

 

[seansherm]

I’m not talking about a Mag type of kid. I’ll throw a name out there for better understanding of the type of kid I’m talking about. Keyshawn Hall - 247 lists him as 6-7 and weighing 255 (compare that with Mag who is also listed at 6-7 but 215 lb. Even if the 255 is exaggerated, he’s clearly in the 230+ range which is what I’m talking about in a kid who could slide 4-5 like Marini but more physical. Coming off a season where he scored over 16 ppg / 8 rpg and is a career 37.8% from 3. Also over 80% career FT shooter. I imagine kids like this have tons of suitors but the point I’m making is this type of kid rebounds a ton. We could play that type with Martini, Dylan, Ace, and J Williams. We’d have Somerville and Ogbole when we need to go bigger and then he could slide to the 4.

I’m just saying - those of you thinking we are going to get another guard or forward with these types of numbers and a proven traditional center are probably being unrealistic. Perhaps we can combine the two needs and focus on adding an all around better player because we’re probably not planning to shell out the 700k+ it’s going to cost to get someone like Cliff.

I get what you are saying, and teams can play that way, but this team next year will probably really need someone to provide support at the rim.

 

[Knight Owl]

Go after Cream Abdul-Jabbar. He’s a stretch five! And…Need a dude with goggles now that Gavin is gone.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I get what you are saying, and teams can play that way, but this team next year will probably really need someone to provide support at the rim.

Why next year’s team and not, for instance, the WVU final 4 team I referenced? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing - just asking… This isn’t about - if we can get a center with similar stats to Cliff’s should we turn it down?

Think of the question more of - are we better off a) overpaying for a CJ Gettys type of center who played a utility role on a midmajor with pretty good efficiency. Or b) going after a PF like the Hall kid I gave in my example. Again - I don’t know the answer - and Gettys actually did pan out in that case. Not all do.

Because where I’m at right now - I’m expecting that the traditional center we’re going to realistically be able to afford is going to have stats that look like what CJ came in at from UNC Wilmington albeit an NCAA team - but still.

We have a really attractive spot for a PF. The punchline is - look, we’ll probably need you to play a lot at the 5 along with sharing time at the 4 with Martini. It’s arguably a role with potential for 32 mpg.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I’ll add - I fear we’re in a tough spot with recruiting a 5 where we can’t afford the guys that would be easily penciled in at 5 and perhaps the next tier of guys would be hesitant to come in and have to beat out both Ogbole and Somerville.

 

[Shelby65]

There is every reason to believe Griffiths is going to have a solid career and play a lot better, especially in years 3 and 4. He certainly showed signs of it early in this season and in the last few games. If I had a choice between GG in his 4th year or Martini in his 4th year, I'd take the risk and pick GG.

But for the balance of this past season, GG was an unmitigated disaster on both sides of the floor. I think the vast majority of fans on this board agree with me.

As you say, you're entitled to your opinion. But it seems odd that anyone would objectively say GG is a better option for the '24-25 Scarlet Knights than Martini.

I say that because I’m projecting Martini’s production in our offense, not his production in the Princeton offense. People just look at stats….but they don’t translate given many other variables.

He will not have the benefit of willing passers, advanced guard play and is less athletic. Plus, Ivy defense is much weaker.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I say that because I’m projecting Martini’s production in our offense, not his production in the Princeton offense. People just look at stats….but they don’t translate given many other variables.

He will not have the benefit of willing passers, advanced guard play and is less athletic. Plus, Ivy defense is much weaker.

I’m expecting him to be a smart player based on how his coaches described him. He’s not going to be the type to force bad shots to try it “get his”. That’s important even if his individual output isn’t as high as it was at Princeton. I’m worried more about his D and rebounding but the article about his toughness made me feel a little better.

 

[seansherm]

Why next year’s team and not, for instance, the WVU final 4 team I referenced? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing - just asking… This isn’t about - if we can get a center with similar stats to Cliff’s should we turn it down?

Think of the question more of - are we better off a) overpaying for a CJ Gettys type of center who played a utility role on a midmajor with pretty good efficiency. Or b) going after a PF like the Hall kid I gave in my example. Again - I don’t know the answer - and Gettys actually did pan out in that case. Not all do.

Because where I’m at right now - I’m expecting that the traditional center we’re going to realistically be able to afford is going to have stats that look like what CJ came in at from UNC Wilmington albeit an NCAA team - but still.

We have a really attractive spot for a PF. The punchline is - look, we’ll probably need you to play a lot at the 5 along with sharing time at the 4 with Martini. It’s arguably a role with potential for 32 mpg.

If we end up in that situation I'd say B but both scenarios are a failure for maximizing what next year could top out at, although this year taught me not to question Pike putting out a solid defensive team. Of course we'll then find out how much of that was Cliff.

 

[Shelby65]

I’m expecting him to be a smart player based on how his coaches described him. He’s not going to be the type to force bad shots to try it “get his”. That’s important even if his individual output isn’t as high as it was at Princeton. I’m worried more about his D and rebounding but the article about his toughness made me feel a little better.

I agree with your assessment. Does that spell Big10 starter to you ?

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I agree with your assessment. Does that spell Big10 starter to you ?

It could be. Unless he’s a complete disaster rebounding the ball I’d much prefer him in the line up than a guy like Hyatt who wants the usage. We want a guy in the line up who are only looking to shoot when wide open and can nail those shots. Martini fits that mold. Ideally, he would be more known for his D.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Just look at the four teams left standing and it's pretty clear that you need a dominant rim protector to go along with a really good supporting cast. You may be right that we can't pull off bringing in a dominant center. But if we can't, our ceiling is lower than the final 4 next season. Probably lower than the Sweet 16.

Damn I wish Cliff would have stayed. So many people on this board that would bash him are going to regret it.

I bashed him at times but I also realize he’s probably the perfect compliment to next year’s team. I also understand his decision to leave. Why would you not want to get another top coach’s perspective and expertise in helping your game evolve, especially when he seems to have “tapped out” here…oh yeah, and he’ll get a bag to do it. No brainer.

 

[Shelby65]

It could be. Unless he’s a complete disaster rebounding the ball I’d much prefer him in the line up than a guy like Hyatt who wants the usage. We want a guy in the line up who are only looking to shoot when wide open and can nail those shots. Martini fits that mold. Ideally, he would be more known for his D.

I know I’m repeating myself, but I don’t think he will get very many wide open shots like he did at Princeton. That’s the crux of my disdain for our guard play and team passing.

And if he doesn’t get these looks, he doesn’t offer much else. He’s too slow and athletic to play D like you hope for.

 

[sct1111]

Cliff would actually be perfect for next year. Mobile, athletic big man that can run the pick and roll with Dylan, be a defensive presence and rebound the ball. That's pretty much exactly what we need for next year.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Cliff would actually be perfect for next year. Mobile, athletic big man that can run the pick and roll with Dylan, be a defensive presence and rebound the ball. That's pretty much exactly what we need for next year.

Cliff is going to make a lot of money wherever he goes.