Cliff v Bailey, Hinson, Kent

[Unionst]

It might be interesting to compare Cliff to the 3 other very athletic centers we have had over the years. Good news: these 3, Bailey, Hinson and Kent, also happen to be our 3 best centers since the 70’s.

Other than the fact he played on a Final Four team as a freshman, Bailey had an unremarkable freshman year. He wasn’t expected to score; he was primarily a rebounder and shot blocker. But he absolutely exploded the second half of his sophomore year as dunks became legal again (he may be the all-time NCAA leader) and his mid-range game became unstoppable. None of that could have been projected from anything he had done to that point. His athleticism was awesome but it was his mid-range shooting ability that made him an All American.

Hinson got heavy minutes his freshman year and I don’t remember seeing the big-time potential then. His improvement over the years was more gradual than Bailey’s until his scoring took off his senior year. Again, it was about developing a shot. And, of course, he was an incredible shot blocker.

Kent was an effective 6’5” center. That’s about all you need to know about his incredible strength and athleticism. Unlike Bailey or Hinson he never developed a shot - other than dunking. But Kent was a great rebounder and is one of RU’s all-time leaders in steals.

All 3 of these players become more than just athletes by developing basketball skills. What will Cliff develop and when will it happen? This year maybe?

 

[80RU]

It might be interesting to compare Cliff to the 3 other very athletic centers we have had over the years. Good news: these 3, Bailey, Hinson and Kent, also happen to be our 3 best centers since the 70’s.

Other than the fact he played on a Final Four team as a freshman, Bailey had an unremarkable freshman year. He wasn’t expected to score; he was primarily a rebounder and shot blocker. But he absolutely exploded the second half of his sophomore year as dunks became legal again (he may be the all-time NCAA leader) and his mid-range game became unstoppable. None of that could have been projected from anything he had done to that point. His athleticism was awesome but it was his mid-range shooting ability that made him an All American.

Hinson got heavy minutes his freshman year and I don’t remember seeing the big-time potential then. His improvement over the years was more gradual than Bailey’s until his scoring took off his senior year. Again, it was about developing a shot. And, of course, he was an incredible shot blocker.

Kent was an effective 6’5” center. That’s about all you need to know about his incredible strength and athleticism. Unlike Bailey or Hinson he never developed a shot - other than dunking. But Kent was a great rebounder and is one of RU’s all-time leaders in steals.

All 3 of these players become more than just athletes by developing basketball skills. What will Cliff develop and when will it happen? This year maybe?

Bailey averaged about nine points a game in 23 minutes his freshman season. He already had a mid range jumper. Not as “remarkable“ as his three blocks per game and great steals and assists statistics for a freshman center, but he was already a scoring threat. And he already had skills. Hinson also averaged around 10 points per game as a freshman. He didn’t come in with the all-around skills of Bailey, but he was skilled around the basket. Cliff is starting from a completely different place with extraordinary athleticism but more catching up to do on the skills.

 

[Unionst]

Bailey averaged about nine points a game in 23 minutes his freshman season. He already had a mid range jumper. Not as “remarkable“ as his three blocks per game and great steals and assists statistics for a freshman center, but he was already a scoring threat. Hinson also averaged around 10 points per game as a freshman.

Bailey’s freshman scoring was on a team that averaged what, 95 points a game. Hinson went from 9 points as a freshman to 16 as a senior. My larger point is that they developed/improved specific basketball skills to become great players. Their athleticism was a really good place to start. Hopefully Cliff can do the same.

 

[knights1212]

Bailey & Hinson were both terrific. We were fortunate to have an 8 year consecutive span from 1975-1983 with them. They both were first round pics in the NBA draft. Bailey was a # 6 pick and Hinson was # 20 in the first round. Bailey played 9 years in the NBA and Hinson had 8 years. Hinson had a lifetime average of 14.2 in the NBA after he retired with a major knee injury. Bailey did average 8.8 ppg as a freshman at RU which was pretty impressive with future NBA players, Sellers, Copeland and Jordan on that team and Sellers & Dabney were both All Americans that 75-76 season. Bailey had over 120 dunks I believe in one season and probably is the all time NCAA leader in dunks although dunking was not allowed in his freshman season.

 

[80RU]

Bailey’s freshman scoring was on a team that averaged what, 95 points a game. Hinson went from 9 points as a freshman to 16 as a senior. My larger point is that they developed/improved specific basketball skills to become great players. Their athleticism was a really good place to start. Hopefully Cliff can do the same.

And my point was that Bailey did start his freshman year with “skills.” He could handle the ball in the open court, had great court awareness, had a mid range jumper and was crafty around the basket with the no dunk rule. The only thing that kept his scoring to nine points a game in 23 minutes was that there are only so many shots to go around when you have scorers like Sellers and Dabney, even with the running team. The task before Cliff to become a great player is just a different sort of path that Bailey and, to slightly lesser extent, Hinson had.

 

[Unionst]

And my point was that Bailey did start his freshman year with “skills.” He could handle the ball in the open court, had great court awareness, had a mid range jumper and was crafty around the basket with the no dunk rule. The only thing that kept his scoring to nine points a game in 23 minutes was that there are only so many shots to go around when you have scorers like Sellers and Dabney, even with the running team. The task before Cliff to become a great player is just a different sort of path that Bailey and, to slightly lesser extent, Hinson had.

I don’t disagree although I remember Bailey’s sophomore season being a bit more surprising.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

while I loved Kent.. who should have been a 4... Myles Johnson was better than Kent.

 

[Unionst]

while I loved Kent.. who should have been a 4... Myles Johnson was better than Kent.

I disagree with that. Go check Kent in the record book, he’s near the top in a bunch of stuff. Anyway, my point was to talk about improvements in “athletic“ big men over their college years. Those 3 guys I mention were very productive. I’m not sure we have had a super athletic center who did not produce ultimately. At least none comes to mind.

 

[goru7]

It might be interesting to compare Cliff to the 3 other very athletic centers we have had over the years. Good news: these 3, Bailey, Hinson and Kent, also happen to be our 3 best centers since the 70’s.

Other than the fact he played on a Final Four team as a freshman, Bailey had an unremarkable freshman year. He wasn’t expected to score; he was primarily a rebounder and shot blocker. But he absolutely exploded the second half of his sophomore year as dunks became legal again (he may be the all-time NCAA leader) and his mid-range game became unstoppable. None of that could have been projected from anything he had done to that point. His athleticism was awesome but it was his mid-range shooting ability that made him an All American.

Hinson got heavy minutes his freshman year and I don’t remember seeing the big-time potential then. His improvement over the years was more gradual than Bailey’s until his scoring took off his senior year. Again, it was about developing a shot. And, of course, he was an incredible shot blocker.

Kent was an effective 6’5” center. That’s about all you need to know about his incredible strength and athleticism. Unlike Bailey or Hinson he never developed a shot - other than dunking. But Kent was a great rebounder and is one of RU’s all-time leaders in steals.

All 3 of these players become more than just athletes by developing basketball skills. What will Cliff develop and when will it happen? This year maybe?

Interesting thread. I was a freshman in 75-76 and got to see Bailey a lot. The word early on when the team used to run open gym at the Livingston before the season was that Bailey was killing it and he was playing with Sellers, Dabney , Copeland, and Jordan. He was clearly better than Mike Palko and Tom Young waited until the 5-6 th game to bring him into the starting lineup. He was incredibly skilled early on but a string bean. Cliff’s Athleticism is similar but Bailey could shoot and block shots right away . Bailey ‘s improvement And gaining muscle weight led to his incredible improvement sophomore year and frankly in my opinion was the best player in the country junior year when Larry Bird came to the RAC during the NIT . I would agree with the Hinson take, that his improvement was more gradual but he was outstanding on both ends by his. Junior and senior seasons . Kent was the best low post defender and his denial defense was so superb that he led the team fin steals. But Kent never developed a short jumper or hook shot but just muscled his way to the basket. . . From the early clips , Cliff has and will develop a serious jumper to go along with his dunk game and has the best chance to match Bailey immediate ascent his sophomore year into one of the best players not just in the Big 10 but the country and if he follows that ascent this year , we will go a long way.

 

[RUtrumpet92]

Kent's career numbers are weak in blocks (until his senior year) and FT% but very, very strong in other areas.

31. RASHOD KENT - 1,104 Points (1998-02)
Year G FG FGA Pct FT FTA Pct Reb/Avg Pts/Avg AS ST BK
98-99 28 94 141 .667 57 132 .432 138/4.9 245/8.8 20 45 11
99-00 31 107 179 .598 62 133 .466 214/6.9 276/8.9 49 52 11
00-01 26 108 168 .643 40 112 .357 241/9.2 256/8.2 32 34 11
01-02 31 126 233 .541 75 202 .371 317/10.2 327/10.5 49 58 57
Total 116 435 721 .603 234 579 .404 910/7.8 1104/9.5 150 189 90

He is Rutgers' all-time leader in FG% and 4th in rebounds behind Sellers, Bailey, and Swede Sundstrom (1951-54). He is 3rd in all-time steals - as a center! - behind Eddie Jordan and Myles Mack. He was so quick off the floor for his size and was athletic enough to get a shot as an NFL TE despite never playing the sport at Rutgers.

Johnson is just behind Kent in FG% at 59.9%. Johnson is the better shot blocker and gets many steals for a big man, but his career steals + blocks = 209. Kent was at 279. There is an excellent chance Johnson's total would've passed Kent if he stayed for a fourth season assuming he stayed healthy.

Johnson also faced tougher competition.

 

[RUPete]

Question about Hinson: I seem to remember him growing a few inches while here - contributing to his improvement. Was that the case? I thought he came here at 6-6 or 6-7, got stronger and left at 6-9. Not sure.

 

[RUPete]

Kent's career numbers are weak in blocks (until his senior year) and FT% but very, very strong in other areas.

31. RASHOD KENT - 1,104 Points (1998-02)
Year G FG FGA Pct FT FTA Pct Reb/Avg Pts/Avg AS ST BK
98-99 28 94 141 .667 57 132 .432 138/4.9 245/8.8 20 45 11
99-00 31 107 179 .598 62 133 .466 214/6.9 276/8.9 49 52 11
00-01 26 108 168 .643 40 112 .357 241/9.2 256/8.2 32 34 11
01-02 31 126 233 .541 75 202 .371 317/10.2 327/10.5 49 58 57
Total 116 435 721 .603 234 579 .404 910/7.8 1104/9.5 150 189 90

He is Rutgers' all-time leader in FG% and 4th in rebounds behind Sellers, Bailey, and Swede Sundstrom (1951-54). He is 3rd in all-time steals - as a center! - behind Eddie Jordan and Myles Mack. He was so quick off the floor for his size and was athletic enough to get a shot as an NFL TE despite never playing the sport at Rutgers.

Johnson is just behind Kent in FG% at 59.9%. Johnson is the better shot blocker and gets many steals for a big man, but his career steals + blocks = 209. Kent was at 279. There is an excellent chance Johnson's total would've passed Kent if he stayed for a fourth season assuming he stayed healthy.

Johnson also faced tougher competition.

I'll give everyone my Kent Lament again: if only he could have hit just 60 percent from the FT line to keep other teams honest.

 

[29PAS]

I'll give everyone my Kent Lament again: if only he could have hit just 60 percent from the FT line to keep other teams honest.

You're right about that. He was terrible from the line.

 

[RUPete]

You're right about that. He was terrible from the line.

He was so good in other aspects and strong as a bull. But they would always send two or three guys to hack him every time he got the ball down low.

 

[Unionst]

Question about Hinson: I seem to remember him growing a few inches while here - contributing to his improvement. Was that the case? I thought he came here at 6-6 or 6-7, got stronger and left at 6-9. Not sure.

No, came in at 6’9”

 

[Unionst]

So where will Cliff land in this group?

 

[RUPete]

No, came in at 6’9”

Thanks- I should have checked the roster. Looking back, I didn't realize Kelvin Troy averaged 18.5 ppg his senior year.

 

[Rutgers25]

One thing that alarmed me last year was that I really didn’t see great shot blocking instincts from Cliff last year.

 

[kcg88]

One thing that alarmed me last year was that I really didn’t see great shot blocking instincts from Cliff last year.

His block rate was higher as a freshman than Myles Johnson's was a freshman.

 

[shields]

Hinson was best shot blocker I have ever seen.

 

[ColonelRutgers]

Rashod Kent wins the award for most overrated former Rutgers player on this board. He compiled some good numbers over a rare four year playing career and was a good positional defender but come on.

 

[zebnatto]

I don’t think there’s any way to know what the progress curve will be. Kent is in his own category.

 

[GSGS]

I thought I remember Bailey not really becoming an outside threat until his junior year. He took a giant leap forward with his offense his sophomore year, but most of his scoring was from around the basket.

Anyone know why Kent's NFL career ended so quickly? Was it injury? He seemed to accomplish the hardest part, going from someone who hadn't played football since he was a grade schooler to making an NFL roster, and I expected his career to take off at that point. Instead, it fizzled and was quickly over.

 

[wheezer]

No, came in at 6’9”

As I remember it also

 

[wheezer]

Kent was a decent center, maybe good, but he does not belong in the conversation of best RU centers

 

[Unionst]

Kent was a decent center, maybe good, but he does not belong in the conversation of best RU centers

Certainly not with Bailey and Hinson as a player but athletically, he was every bit their equal. So where does Cliff end up? I’m personally skeptical he makes a huge jump this year but I wouldn’t be shocked to see him as a star in another year.

 

[wheezer]

Certainly not with Bailey and Hinson as a player but athletically, he was every bit their equal. So where does Cliff end up? I’m personally skeptical he makes a huge jump this year but I wouldn’t be shocked to see him as a star in another year.

We saw little of Cliffs potential, but reports are that this year he might make a huge leap, much like Bailey

 

[ColonelRutgers]

Certainly not with Bailey and Hinson as a player but athletically, he was every bit their equal. So where does Cliff end up? I’m personally skeptical he makes a huge jump this year but I wouldn’t be shocked to see him as a star in another year.

Kent was absolutely not every bit their equal athletically. Those guys were elite athletes. He was a basketball player who could not shoot a basketball and tried to make football team. That doesn’t put him in their class.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I see cliff as being more like what Roy Hinson became in the NBA ...Roy was just starting to develop handle and range in his senior year ...which got way better in the nba

...and cliff has that potential and his best shooting and handle will be at the next level ....developing more each year at Rutgers

Cliff looks more like a nba four man and not a low block center in the next level and I expect pike to let him develop that part of his game here

 

[RUPete]

Kent was a decent center, maybe good, but he does not belong in the conversation of best RU centers

He wasn’t a true center and didn’t always play the position, so he shouldn’t have been brought into the conversation, but some of the negativity here is ridiculous.

 

[wheezer]

He wasn’t a true center and didn’t always play the position, so he shouldn’t have been brought into the conversation, but some of the negativity here is ridiculous.

I did not want to seem negative myself,
I liked him as a player, but not in comparison

as someone else mentioned, we were spoiled with eight consecutive years of great center play

today there seems to be a lot of big and very good centers now, a few in the big ten

I am hoping we can compare Cliff to Bailey and Hinson someday, it certainly looks like we might

 

[Unionst]

Kent was absolutely not every bit their equal athletically. Those guys were elite athletes. He was a basketball player who could not shoot a basketball and tried to make football team. That doesn’t put him in their class.

Kent was explosive. Incredible vertical leap and quickness and extraordinary physical power. As it is used today that’s the definition of an athlete. Did he have all the other tools? No. But that is how the term athlete is used today.

So the question I opened with is basically what will Cliff do with is athletic gifts, that is, his power, speed and size? And how long will the process to becoming a great player take? I think comparing him to these 3 should make RU fans optimistic.

 

[Unionst]

I see cliff as being more like what Roy Hinson became in the NBA ...Roy was just starting to develop handle and range in his senior year ...which got way better in the nba

...and cliff has that potential and his best shooting and handle will be at the next level ....developing more each year at Rutgers

Cliff looks more like a nba four man and not a low block center in the next level and I expect pike to let him develop that part of his game here

I think you’re right about Hinson and could see the possibility of similar development with Cliff

 

[80RU]

Kent was explosive. Incredible vertical leap and quickness and extraordinary physical power. As it is used today that’s the definition of an athlete. Did he have all the other tools? No. But that is how the term athlete is used today.

So the question I opened with is basically what will Cliff do with is athletic gifts, that is, his power, speed and size? And how long will the process to becoming a great player take? I think comparing him to these 3 should make RU fans optimistic.

I agree that Kent was that type of athlete. I recall that one year he lost only one opening center tip at home the entire year. At 6‘6“ tall, that was an incredible feat.

 

[knightfan7]

I thought I remember Bailey not really becoming an outside threat until his junior year. He took a giant leap forward with his offense his sophomore year, but most of his scoring was from around the basket.

Anyone know why Kent's NFL career ended so quickly? Was it injury? He seemed to accomplish the hardest part, going from someone who hadn't played football since he was a grade schooler to making an NFL roster, and I expected his career to take off at that point. Instead, it fizzled and was quickly over.

He played TE 1 season for Houston with no receptions. The following year he signed with Oakland but was cut during camp. No idea if it was injury related.

 

[wheezer]

Interesting thread. I was a freshman in 75-76 and got to see Bailey a lot. The word early on when the team used to run open gym at the Livingston before the season was that Bailey was killing it and he was playing with Sellers, Dabney , Copeland, and Jordan. He was clearly better than Mike Palko and Tom Young waited until the 5-6 th game to bring him into the starting lineup. He was incredibly skilled early on but a string bean. Cliff’s Athleticism is similar but Bailey could shoot and block shots right away . Bailey ‘s improvement And gaining muscle weight led to his incredible improvement sophomore year and frankly in my opinion was the best player in the country junior year when Larry Bird came to the RAC during the NIT . I would agree with the Hinson take, that his improvement was more gradual but he was outstanding on both ends by his. Junior and senior seasons . Kent was the best low post defender and his denial defense was so superb that he led the team fin steals. But Kent never developed a short jumper or hook shot but just muscled his way to the basket. . . From the early clips , Cliff has and will develop a serious jumper to go along with his dunk game and has the best chance to match Bailey immediate ascent his sophomore year into one of the best players not just in the Big 10 but the country and if he follows that ascent this year , we will go a long way.

Bailey's junior year was fantastic.....I think he regressed, but only slightly, his senior year......it was suggested he put on some weight, following the recommendations of some scouts, which seemed to be not such a good idea

the game vs Bird will always be etched in my memory, as one of the top 4 or 5 games I have seen

 

[RU82]

He played TE 1 season for Houston with no receptions. The following year he signed with Oakland but was cut during camp. No idea if it was injury related.

Rashod didn’t like playing football.

 

[goru7]

Bailey's junior year was fantastic.....I think he regressed, but only slightly, his senior year......it was suggested he put on some weight, following the recommendations of some scouts, which seemed to be not such a good idea

the game vs Bird will always be etched in my memory, as one of the top 4 or 5 games I have seen

Agree about the excess weight his senior year. It definitely affected some of his explosiveness. I think it was his junior year when maybe 10 th ranked Cinncinnati with All American Pat Cummings came into the Garden and Bailey stool his lunch money and we killed them 89-70. It got the attention of the National Media.
Yes that NIT game with Bird v. Bailey was one of the top intense games in RAC history.

 

[wheezer]

Agree about the excess weight his senior year. It definitely affected some of his explosiveness. I think it was his junior year when maybe 10 th ranked Cinncinnati with All American Pat Cummings came into the Garden and Bailey stool his lunch money and we killed them 89-70. It got the attention of the National Media.
Yes that NIT game with Bird v. Bailey was one of the top intense games in RAC history.

I was at the Cincy game
When RU came out for pregame warmups I politely clapped, and the guy next to me seemed surprised, as though he thought everyone in the Garden would be rooting for Cincinnati
He immediately asked me if I wanted to bet $50 on the game which I declined
I have often said that this game was the most through beating we have ever given a ranked team
Bailey ruined them all night long
I was actually a bit pissed that we backed off a bit and they got our lead down to under 20 at the end

 

[Unionst]

Agree about the excess weight his senior year. It definitely affected some of his explosiveness. I think it was his junior year when maybe 10 th ranked Cinncinnati with All American Pat Cummings came into the Garden and Bailey stool his lunch money and we killed them 89-70. It got the attention of the National Media.
Yes that NIT game with Bird v. Bailey was one of the top intense games in RAC history.

He was a sophomore (Cincy game). Really was his coming out. That was fun.