Evidently what is going on down there parallels developments in New Jersey.
attracting millenials with transit
attracting millenials with transit
D.C. suburbs trying to decide how to use transit to attract millenials
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Researchers say they're intrigued that millennials' aversion to driving and owning a car has endured even since the recession ended. Moreover, studies show that Americans of all ages are driving less, with per capita annual mileage continuing to drop since 2006.
All that, and other data, experts say, point to a broad cultural shift in how and where many generations want to live, work and get around.
"It's not just the recession, and it's not just millennials," said Robert Puentes, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution's metropolitan policy program. "The change is so dramatic, it can't be the result of one thing. There are definitely structural changes happening."
The difference there is that the Republican governor of Maryland, unlike his NJ counterpart, concerns himself with increasing public transport, not shutting it down, defunding it, and raising fares while decreasing services.
Outside of the PATH/HBLR and PATCO towns, you have New Brunswick, Morristown, Red Bank, some shore towns, a higher end NJ towns like Montclair, Ridgewood, Westfield that have real walkability and good transit options.
The HBLR, and 7 line expansions, MOM, and NB light rails should be funded ASAP. The distant suburbs are already hemorrhaging.
All that, and other data, experts say, point to a broad cultural shift in how and where many generations want to live, work and get around.
"It's not just the recession, and it's not just millennials," said Robert Puentes, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution's metropolitan policy program. "The change is so dramatic, it can't be the result of one thing. There are definitely structural changes happening."
The difference there is that the Republican governor of Maryland, unlike his NJ counterpart, concerns himself with increasing public transport, not shutting it down, defunding it, and raising fares while decreasing services.
Outside of the PATH/HBLR and PATCO towns, you have New Brunswick, Morristown, Red Bank, some shore towns, a higher end NJ towns like Montclair, Ridgewood, Westfield that have real walkability and good transit options.
The HBLR, and 7 line expansions, MOM, and NB light rails should be funded ASAP. The distant suburbs are already hemorrhaging.
The new mass transit needs in NJ isn't to move people into NYC ... that transit already exists.
NJ needs better mass transit to do things like moving people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Morristown, etc.
NJ needs better mass transit to do things like moving people between New Brunswick, Somerville, Morristown, etc.
I live in Arlington,VA across the river from and can attest to how mass transit rail drives development. Clustered around all the Metro stations in Arlington is massive mixed use development which has created mini urban centers in Rosslyn, Courthouse, Clarendon, and Ballston. The same is true through out the Washington area and the car "lite" lifestyle is n demand. My son, who is a recent law school grad and has his first job in a DC law firm, wanted to live in VA yet be car free. He only looked at apartments which were in walking distance of a Metro stop. He now lives in Alexandria, VA, walks to the Metro, can walk to shopping. His friends are similarly located. I might add that its not just millenials. When I moved back to the DC area after living in the UK for 14 years a requirement I had was to be near Metro, Many older folks are downsizing and moving to more urban environments with Metro access,
I worked in Arlington for 2 weeks temporarily. It seemed to be to DC what Hoboken is to NYC. Very young city and a great alternative to living in DC. .
Which shows why its almost impossible to square this circle.
The ridership just wouldn't be there. Its hard to reconcile rail transit (and thats what people really mean by mass transit - NIRH and his ilk aren't riding the bus on a daily basis) and the suburbs, unless its as a feeder to a single centralized location.
DC has the same issue. Its pretty easy to get into DC from more or less anywhere without about two or even three counties via train (sometimes those trains are only during peak hours, but they are still there). But getting between any two of them without going through DC is almost impossible via train.
There are a couple of relatively near in locations around DC that are the equivalent of Brooklyn, Queens, or Hudson/Bergen that are connected, or getting connected, but overall, its just not worthwhile to make those connections - just not enough density to justify even light rail, particularly as far out as NB or Somerville.
So that leaves bus and like I said - good luck with that, unless its BRT, which is virtually as expensive as light rail if done right.
But the ridership would be there. Didn't a feasibility study of a New Brunswick region light rail system determine that it would have one of the highest light rail riderships in the country.
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Agree and disagree. Sure you can get into NYC, at about 1/2 the speed you should be able to get there, plus the existing train tunnel is EOL and will need to be closed for major repairs within about 15 years. There remains a huge need for more transit options into NYC.
I like the idea of better options to get people between Morristown and NB (or similar areas), but I'm not sure what those options are and I'm not sure there is the traffic to to sustain it as it seems like the trips would be spread out over too many locations. You kind of need a hub, and I don't think any of those places really have enough pull to act as a hub.
I don't disagree that there is a need for improvement in train travel to NYC (especially in regards to trans-Hudson crossing). But other than one or two specific lines, like to Giants Stadium, there is not a real need for new transit lines to NYC.
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Der- now that I work in the city again, I take the bus everyday, LOL. I live closer to the bus than the PATH and my office is closer to the PABT than the PATH.
That said, we really do lack transportation into the city still. Think of it like this. The towns from Weehawken to the NY border along the Hudson have no rail link to NYC despite literally looking at it. All of the infrastructure is aging.
The HBLR runs only within NJ. But the Bergen part is missing, which would at least partially cure the issue I mention.
Plenty of people who ride the PATH also do so within NJ...especially people in the burbs that work in JC.
Morristown is mostly walkable in and of itself, at least the part of west of 287. And once you leave Morristown, it gets very spread out very fast. The cure for that area I always thought was actually a ring road- from 287 north to 24, 280, 10 and 80. The towns around there also have pretty good rail access.
New Brunswick is a better example for a new rail because the area surrounding it is very dense, and Piscataway and East Brunswick have no rail access. You could imagine a light rail with a park and ride on both sides.
Another area where there could be improvement in density is the shore. From Long Branch to Point Pleasant you have all these small towns and it's very hard to park. The train there requires a transfer and is very, very slow. In OCMD there is a $1 bus that runs the whole strip, 24-7, great for workers, cuts down on DUI. Might encourage more people to leave the car at home.
That said, we really do lack transportation into the city still. Think of it like this. The towns from Weehawken to the NY border along the Hudson have no rail link to NYC despite literally looking at it. All of the infrastructure is aging.
The HBLR runs only within NJ. But the Bergen part is missing, which would at least partially cure the issue I mention.
Plenty of people who ride the PATH also do so within NJ...especially people in the burbs that work in JC.
Morristown is mostly walkable in and of itself, at least the part of west of 287. And once you leave Morristown, it gets very spread out very fast. The cure for that area I always thought was actually a ring road- from 287 north to 24, 280, 10 and 80. The towns around there also have pretty good rail access.
New Brunswick is a better example for a new rail because the area surrounding it is very dense, and Piscataway and East Brunswick have no rail access. You could imagine a light rail with a park and ride on both sides.
Another area where there could be improvement in density is the shore. From Long Branch to Point Pleasant you have all these small towns and it's very hard to park. The train there requires a transfer and is very, very slow. In OCMD there is a $1 bus that runs the whole strip, 24-7, great for workers, cuts down on DUI. Might encourage more people to leave the car at home.
Must disagree. Penn Station's tunnel is very congested, and so it is not possible to accomodate enough trains there to meet passenger demand. A new tunnel is needed, but unfortunately Governor Christie turned down a heap of federal money that would have helped build it. By saying this, I don't disparage the need for better transit in New Jersey.
The first step of the next governor should be a massive increase in the transportation budget. Several bridges have already had to close in NJ due to their horrid condition. When New Jerseyans consider their daily commutes, it's quite scary. On top of the additional lines needed.
Local light rail might work. But not connections between walkable cities in NJ.
MD has a similar problem. Howard County in between DC and Baltimore has alot of jobs, and a fair number of people in its main corridor. Buts neither the job density, nor the housing density is enough to justify running rail out there. Basically the places people work and the places people live are both too spread out to outfit a functional rail system.
NB might work because the college would provide huge ridership that you just couldn't get in a normal NJ town. Newark and everything closer tio NYC is basically dense enough to have their own systems.
PWay to EB might be doable because of Rutgers. Going even out to SOmerville and you probably start to get to the point where there aren't enough people in that area working in PWay, NB, or EB to make the extension worth it, nor are there enough attractions on the route to have people use it for non-work trips (i.e. few people are going to NB for dinner and taking the light rail, like they might take NJ transit to go into the city for a night or like i use light rail for Os games.)
This would require a significant increase in the the state's gasoline tax. N.J.'s gasoline tax is one of the lowest in the nation, but still increasing the tax would take a considerable political life. Unfortunately (I seem to use that word a lot about our Governor), Christie wants to rely on smoke and mirrors.
Agree- what we don't want is a vacant line.
I like terminals at EB and Pway with stops close enough to HP, Milltown, Edison and South Plainfield that other towns feel like they have skin in the game
To Upstream's point maybe you "tease" a bus route in the Morristown area that would run rush hours and nights when the dinner & drink crowd is out and see what audience you get. If none, you can cancel it without the PT haters getting all riled. If it's packed you have a case. But I don't think the audience is there. 5 minute drive from town there are literal empty fields and farms.
I also think a bus along Ocean Ave in Monmouth County akin the OCMD bus would do very well. You need the density.
I think the difference is that Coastal Highway is much more of a highway than Ocean Ave and Ocean City itself is much more commercial. Lots of hotels. Attractions all up and down not only the 40 blocks of boarwalk, but the 150 blocks of Coastal Highway.
The Monmouth County beaches, like most of the Jersey Shore, are lots and lots of houses, with occasional bursts of boardwalk.
I want a bus! Uber is too pricey sometimes.
I think AC could be the more adult OCMD...aside from Seacrets and a few other spots OCMD is about families. Granted, Seacrets makes the trip worth it. Wish we had a place like that in NJ.
I think AC could be the more adult OCMD...aside from Seacrets and a few other spots OCMD is about families. Granted, Seacrets makes the trip worth it. Wish we had a place like that in NJ.
Yeah but you have to remember, when you consider OCMD in conjunction with the neighboring Delaware beaches you have a lot of different personalities like we have in NJ.
It wouldn't be the most popular idea in some quarters, but I would consider taking a few blocks and making an Amsterdam like red light district. I would get weed legalized. Make a real east coast Vegas. Give people an all year round reason to come besides gambling.
It wouldn't be the most popular idea in some quarters, but I would consider taking a few blocks and making an Amsterdam like red light district. I would get weed legalized. Make a real east coast Vegas. Give people an all year round reason to come besides gambling.
Ha. I think the millenial boom has been really great for Portland and Austin in particular. DC as well to a lesser extent. People have always flocked to NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, LA...but those three you didn't hear as much about people packing up and moving to until the millenial generation. I think it's a good thing if the cool is spread out.
It's a strange problem (if you can call it that) to have. We have a lot of underemployed people - though many of them are underemployed by choice. There are good jobs here - Nike, Intel, etc. - but many move here without a job lined up. I think a lot of people are working remotely, as well. They were calling Portland the city where 30-somethings go to retire, but it's getting harder to do that, because rents continue to rise, despite a ton new inventory. (The amount of construction/rehab is staggering). It's not a cheap city anymore - but I think you get a lot for your money.
It's all relative.
For example, Jersey City and Hoboken are extremely cheap compared to rents in the Silicon Valley and trendier parts of LA, even Orange County is not off par from Hudson County rents despite being much further from the action. DC rents have probably closed in NYC at this point, but Philly, in between, is still crazy cheap. My friend there has a 1 bedroom + den, doorman building, indoor pool. He pays around the same rent as my friend for a studio in a luxury building a good hour south of LA.
Not sure it's like this in Portland but you definitely meet a lot of people in Brooklyn these days that have 30-40k a year jobs but live like kings because their parents are financing it...it's why shows like Girls are spot on.
For example, Jersey City and Hoboken are extremely cheap compared to rents in the Silicon Valley and trendier parts of LA, even Orange County is not off par from Hudson County rents despite being much further from the action. DC rents have probably closed in NYC at this point, but Philly, in between, is still crazy cheap. My friend there has a 1 bedroom + den, doorman building, indoor pool. He pays around the same rent as my friend for a studio in a luxury building a good hour south of LA.
Not sure it's like this in Portland but you definitely meet a lot of people in Brooklyn these days that have 30-40k a year jobs but live like kings because their parents are financing it...it's why shows like Girls are spot on.
Sure - but NJ really is missing the OCMD, big condo/hotel complexes right on the boardwalk thing. Even Seaside, which is alot like OCMD in its attractions isnt like OCMD in its accommodations.
And AC makes sense because they are already built up.
Vegas works because its year round weather makes it a prime convention draw. AC doesnt and cant have that - no matter how much vice you allow. Adults on the east coast who want winter fun go to the Caribbean. The more you emphasize adult stuff in AC, the harder it will be to turn its image around when the last casino shuts its doors.
This post was edited on 4/7 1:52 PM by derleider
I agree that a NJ OCMD type destination might be AC's best chance for a strong future. But I also see a lot of work to be done. Admittedly I don't know AC all that well outside of my occasional visit so my comments are based on my limited knowledge.
It seems AC has a more urban housing/building mix closer to the boardwalk rather than beach destination type housing. OCMD is very built up on the water but the bulk of the other housing/buildings are more beach town like. That's not to say that AC can't change and/or develop it's own style but I see this as a challenge.
I generally agree accommodation could and should improve up and down the shore. What is changing though is that sites like VRBO and and airbnb are making hotels less significant.
I do think the east coast could use a vice destination. Weed is not legal east of the Rockies nor in the Caribbean. Perhaps prostitution is legal in some Caribbean countries but I doubt the scenarios are Amsterdam caliber of safety. I don't think it has to be warm either- Amsterdam and Denver and Seattle are not known for weather. Not saying it will happen but it would be a start to end the financial crisis in NJ.
I do think the east coast could use a vice destination. Weed is not legal east of the Rockies nor in the Caribbean. Perhaps prostitution is legal in some Caribbean countries but I doubt the scenarios are Amsterdam caliber of safety. I don't think it has to be warm either- Amsterdam and Denver and Seattle are not known for weather. Not saying it will happen but it would be a start to end the financial crisis in NJ.
Not sure how many of you have been to legal weed stores in the US, but it's an interesting experience.
In Vancouver, WA (just across the river from here), there are at least a couple, including one called Main Street Marijuana. When it opened, the mayor cut a ribbon. I mean, it's like mainstream Americana...with weed. Kind of funny.
In Vancouver, WA (just across the river from here), there are at least a couple, including one called Main Street Marijuana. When it opened, the mayor cut a ribbon. I mean, it's like mainstream Americana...with weed. Kind of funny.
The xyz-sharing thing is a passing phase.
Take airbnb. If its profitable, then hotel chains will start buying up properties JUST to rent out, just as small timers are doing right now. (Which is a huge problem for housing prices in general - if a good chunk of the housing stock is being used as hotels)
But thats not relevant to the shore. The shore already had a thriving rent my house for your vacation economy and it wont be displaced easily. But AC already has alot of hotel rooms. And alot of people would rather deal with hotels rooms (which come with maids, are more centrally located, etc) than someones house.
Seattle, Amsterdam, and Denver would be world class cities with or without legal weed. They aren't just tourist attractions like Vegas and AC.
Weed is legal in DC. It will be legal elsewhere eventually. At which point, you will have spent alot of money setting up AC to be the monopoly weed city, and it won't be. We see how that worked with gambling. All it will do is convince people with families that AC is a place they dont want to be.
AC has one big advantage - its got a boardwalk on a nice slice of beach with lots of easy highway access for most of the East Coast. Its got nice weather in the summer.
The start of the end of the financial crisis. Pot brought in $50 million or so in taxes in 2014 in Colorado. It won't even match the tax revenue that is being lost due to casinos and is a drop in the bucket in a state that routinely comes up a billion or two short in its budget projections.
Creating a "vice destination" is not an economic strategy nor is it a solution to AC's problems. AC has all the vices you could want. Legalizing them isn't going to solve NJ's or AC's problems.
Weed is legal in DC but the sale is not. I think it's sale will be universally legal in my lifetime but I do think that it will be limited to certain areas, and those areas do not include typical NJ suburbia.
OTOH I do not think Amsterdam style prostitution will be legal across America maybe ever, and AC would be a great starting point.
Also I do think Denver has seen a significant bump in tourism after the law changed. What were people going there for before? Having been to Amsterdam, without the coffee shops and red light district it would not be on par with your major European cities like London, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, etc...people are not going to go to on bachelor parties or hang out in a hostel for days to go the Ann Frank and Van Gough museums alone. They could get improved food and beer in Brussels and same in Prague with the canals too. Like AC you need an angle- what is going to get a tourist to NYC or Philly to get on a bus or train and leave for a night or two? I don't think it's just better hotel inventory.
OTOH I do not think Amsterdam style prostitution will be legal across America maybe ever, and AC would be a great starting point.
Also I do think Denver has seen a significant bump in tourism after the law changed. What were people going there for before? Having been to Amsterdam, without the coffee shops and red light district it would not be on par with your major European cities like London, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, etc...people are not going to go to on bachelor parties or hang out in a hostel for days to go the Ann Frank and Van Gough museums alone. They could get improved food and beer in Brussels and same in Prague with the canals too. Like AC you need an angle- what is going to get a tourist to NYC or Philly to get on a bus or train and leave for a night or two? I don't think it's just better hotel inventory.
Interestingly enough, the Dutch are cracking down on the red light district and the coffee shops in Amsterdam. They want to attract fewer English yobs who spoil a very attractive city with lots to offer.
Wow do you really think bachelor parties and hostels are the key tourism dollars for a place like Amsterdam?
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