Lax vs PSU Game Thread

[Golfer2019]

I know they said the same to me.

Family...you gonna be there on Thursday? I'll be coming over now that I've recovered from my trip to PSU...I did a one day run...lots of driving...

If you're there, let's connect, I'd like to catch up

Hope all is well with the family

 

[Caliknight]

May fly in for the game last second myself.

 

[DowntownT_Brown]

I’m most interested in the example he and others said is bad coaching- the goal before the half.

.

OK, I will bite on this, not because I am looking to be contentious but purely for healthy debate and I am always looking to learn something.

From what I see, Penn State stretches our defense by bringing Ament to midfield which takes one of our long sticks of out the play and Michaeli is at midfield to help contain if someone wheels it across the midfield. At the 5 second mark we have two long sticks totally out of the play and Marron is also behind his man leaving Franckowiak(short stick) one on one with a lot of open space.

Rall is left in an untenable position because with Michaeli trailing the play he cannot slide until the very last moment.

This put us in a situation where a short stick defender has to make a heroic play in the open field or the goalie did. The odds are not in our favor.

I look at this and ask why do we have three players, 2 of them long poles trailing the play with 5 seconds left on the clock? Is there a doubt in anyone's mind where Penn State was going to go with the ball?

Also note, it looks like Penn State did this 5 on 6 but I may be missing a white shirt somewhere.

 

[Golfer2019]

May fly in for the game last second myself.

Let me know if you do...

 

[rufamily]

Family...you gonna be there on Thursday? I'll be coming over now that I've recovered from my trip to PSU...I did a one day run...lots of driving...

If you're there, let's connect, I'd like to catch up

Hope all is well with the family

I have a game that day but I will be trying to get to the second game, I am not sure if you are going to stay but If you do let me know and I will come and find you. you too Cali

 

[Caliknight]

OK, I will bite on this, not because I am looking to be contentious but purely for healthy debate and I am always looking to learn something.

From what I see, Penn State stretches our defense by bringing Ament to midfield which takes one of our long sticks of out the play and Michaeli is at midfield to help contain if someone wheels it across the midfield. At the 5 second mark we have two long sticks totally out of the play and Marron is also behind his man leaving Franckowiak(short stick) one on one with a lot of open space.

Rall is left in an untenable position because with Michaeli trailing the play he cannot slide until the very last moment.

This put us in a situation where a short stick defender has to make a heroic play in the open field or the goalie did. The odds are not in our favor.

I look at this and ask why do we have three players, 2 of them long poles trailing the play with 5 seconds left on the clock? Is there a doubt in anyone's mind where Penn State was going to go with the ball?

Also note, it looks like Penn State did this 5 on 6 but I may be missing a white shirt somewhere.

I was really looking for Nuts' response, since he is the one leading this poor coaching nonsense and called this play out specifically.

Offensive players dictate play. Brian called the TO (loved Brecht's wry response to calling better TO's in the interview), like a good coach would do. He got the right personnel in, and matched up properly. To answer your specific question, our poles were trailing the play because they moved their moved their middies (along with Ament) up, as they found the short stick option, getting the ball to their worse offensive option and our worst defensive option. This created space for what would be their worst offensive player on what would be considered our most vulnerable defense player. Our second string short stick. It was played exactly how you would play it, on both sides. As happens in lacrosse, one kid makes a play over another kid. It happens every game multiple times. Sometimes you just tip your cap when a kid makes a play. Could Rall have slid earlier? Maybe, but that would have left his man open with an even easier look.

The other option would have been to drop straight into a zone, but that would have guaranteed a shot. And with their shooters, that's a much worse option.

To question coaching on this is idiotic. No staff is perfect and there are certainly decisions (as I have questioned, specfically keeping Coyne at attack and Gallagher at midfield earlier in the season) to discuss. But to use this scenario as a sign of bad coaching tells me how little people know about the game.

This was a very well played, well coached, prepared team. On both sides actually. A very good college lacrosse game. Maybe even great.

I visit a couple of other schools boards from time to time. It would be nice if our fanbase was as knowledgeable as a few others. The level of discussion would be much more elevated.

 

[Golfer2019]

I have a game that day but I will be trying to get to the second game, I am not sure if you are going to stay but If you do let me know and I will come and find you. you too Cali

At this point I plan to stay and watch game 2...at some point I'm sure I'll get pulled away to buy someone dinner, but I'll at least be at the first half of the MD v Hop game...I'll look for you...I'll probably be in my normal spot

 

[Caliknight]

Given this is not an RU owned event, I’m told alums can’t be on the field. That’s a bummer.

 

[RU MAN]

Yes, and your response is very easy to say from the stands. But we do not have a roster full of plug and play kids where you can just go on to the next kid. Who do we have to replace AC talent? So if AC is not doing the exact game play you would pull him and play someone else. I call BS on that. You are making a complex argument into something that is black and white, which it is simply not.
It is laughable that you blame the staff for the creating the game plan, make sure the players understand the plan and then in the moment the players do not execute the plan.
And I would fundamentally disagree with your last point about your last point. As Barry Switzer once said “ it’s not the X’s And the O’s its the Jimmy’s and the Joe’s”

RUfamily, thank you very much for your posts here. As a neophyte to the game of lacrosse, it is much appreciated to learn from someone like you who not only appears to know the game, but is willing to point out why certain moments of the game are on the players vs. the coaches and why. Keep it up. Thank you again.

 

[rudad02]

I was really looking for Nuts' response, since he is the one leading this poor coaching nonsense and called this play out specifically.

Offensive players dictate play. Brian called the TO (loved Brecht's wry response to calling better TO's in the interview), like a good coach would do. He got the right personnel in, and matched up properly. To answer your specific question, our poles were trailing the play because they moved their moved their middies (along with Ament) up, as they found the short stick option, getting the ball to their worse offensive option and our worst defensive option. This created space for what would be their worst offensive player on what would be considered our most vulnerable defense player. Our second string short stick. It was played exactly how you would play it, on both sides. As happens in lacrosse, one kid makes a play over another kid. It happens every game multiple times. Sometimes you just tip your cap when a kid makes a play. Could Rall have slid earlier? Maybe, but that would have left his man open with an even easier look.

The other option would have been to drop straight into a zone, but that would have guaranteed a shot. And with their shooters, that's a much worse option.

To question coaching on this is idiotic. No staff is perfect and there are certainly decisions (as I have questioned, specfically keeping Coyne at attack and Gallagher at midfield earlier in the season) to discuss. But to use this scenario as a sign of bad coaching tells me how little people know about the game.

This was a very well played, well coached, prepared team. On both sides actually. A very good college lacrosse game. Maybe even great.

I visit a couple of other schools boards from time to time. It would be nice if our fanbase was as knowledgeable as a few others. The level of discussion would be much more elevated.

Downtown made a serious & substantive contribution to the discussion. Characterizing his point as idiotic is clearly unwarranted.

 

[Caliknight]

Downtown made a serious & substantive contribution to the discussion. Characterizing his point as idiotic is clearly unwarranted.

I didn’t call his comment idiotic. I’m calling those saying we have poor coaching idiotic. Please try and demonstrate better reading comprehension.

 

[SirScarlet]

No we can not agree to that, Army has a 1st team AA on defenses well as a super LSM and an exceptional goalie.
If you knew anything about what you are saying you would realize that my example is right on the mark. Unfortunately it seems like you do not understand what I am saying and I can not explain it to you over the internet.

I don't care what the sport is you don't need to explain anything to me. You said that a coaching staff worked on a game plan all week and then in the game The Players did not execute it and you blame that on the players. I am blaming that on the coaching. We will never agree that it's on the players for that. You either recruited poor players or you are poor coaches.

And to be clear I am not saying that we have poor coaches. I'm saying your example is a terrible example to use to substantiate that we have good coaching.

 

[Caliknight]

The players blame that on the players. According to them.

 

[Racpack]

I love the comments by Caliknight and WNG on the lacrosse and wrestling boards. There are no better Rutgers fans. I just get the impression that at times they appear to be conveying info the coaches want conveyed. In their eyes everything is rosy. That's a great fan. At times, I would enjoy some reality.

 

[Caliknight]

I rarely post anything the coaches say. We don’t communicate that much to even do so. Especially about a game in real time.

I communicate with players more than coaches.

 

[rufamily]

I love the comments by Caliknight and WNG on the lacrosse and wrestling boards. There are no better Rutgers fans. I just get the impression that at times they appear to be conveying info the coaches want conveyed. In their eyes everything is rosy. That's a great fan. At times, I would enjoy some reality.

I am sorry you think that but I keep about 90% of what I know off these boards.

 

[rudad02]

I didn’t call his comment idiotic. I’m calling those saying we have poor coaching idiotic. Please try and demonstrate better reading comprehension.

Downtown's comment was clearly directed toward coaching. Your transparent attempt to deflect is obvious & speaks to your intellectual dishonesty, which is unfortunately one constant on your part. You then demonstrate your mentality by adding another insult in an attempt to cover your backside.

 

[TDIrish27]

PSU does not recruit NJ very much anymore. But, you touch on an issue. Where are our guys from Upstate NY, Long Island and PA we are a Big Ten team with coaches that grew up on Long Island and Upstate we need to be hit that harder

They got the prize in this years HS class.

The Burch kid from Manasquan--------broke state's all time scoring record Saturday and has a chance to break all time goal record later.

Shore Lacrosse overall isn't up to the level of other areas of the state but the kid is a freak

 

[rufamily]

OK, I will bite on this, not because I am looking to be contentious but purely for healthy debate and I am always looking to learn something.

From what I see, Penn State stretches our defense by bringing Ament to midfield which takes one of our long sticks of out the play and Michaeli is at midfield to help contain if someone wheels it across the midfield. At the 5 second mark we have two long sticks totally out of the play and Marron is also behind his man leaving Franckowiak(short stick) one on one with a lot of open space.

Rall is left in an untenable position because with Michaeli trailing the play he cannot slide until the very last moment.

This put us in a situation where a short stick defender has to make a heroic play in the open field or the goalie did. The odds are not in our favor.

I look at this and ask why do we have three players, 2 of them long poles trailing the play with 5 seconds left on the clock? Is there a doubt in anyone's mind where Penn State was going to go with the ball?

Also note, it looks like Penn State did this 5 on 6 but I may be missing a white shirt somewhere.

Ok, I will try and explain this as best i can, First the huddle when we get in we talk about their options and I would imagine that it went sort of like

1- Should we press the ball or drop back they applied token pressure
2-do not let O'keefe or Ament get the ball going at the goal. and it may have been do not slide off of them at all.
3- SS need to hedge to the inside and force them down the wing
4 defend the paint (Crease)
5- once the ball gets into the box do not let them swing it to the back side (much more difficult save for the goalie)
6- check down on any passes.

The play-- they clear the ball to midfield fairly easily as we do not want to give up the deep pass and want to keep everything in front of us.
PSU pull Ament and Okeefe far above the restraining box forcing our poles to go with them, they put Rall's guy on the crease where he will have to make a choice of sliding to the ball and allowing a shot from the crease or staying on his guy, he chose the latter. Marron defends the catch and turns to run with his guy (Kelly I think) he keeps him down the alley till late kid dips under and finishes in front. if we slide we give them a shot right on the crease or we force Max to make a cross-crease save which is far more difficult. If this happens to me (which it has) it is just a kid making a play and we move on.

What would you do differently, if you drop the poles you give Ament the ball running downhill at the goal, they appear to throw the ball over Michaeli which means he is going to be in a trail position no matter what. If you drop all the way in you are going to need to defend a shot anyway and maybe from one of their best kids. I think the defense was solid and that their kid made a play on our kid.

 

[rufamily]

They got the prize in this years HS class.

The Burch kid from Manasquan--------broke state's all time scoring record Saturday and has a chance to break all time goal record later.

Shore Lacrosse overall isn't up to the level of other areas of the state but the kid is a freak

I would disagree.

 

[TDIrish27]

On what specifically ?

 

[e5fdny]

On what specifically ?

I'll guess and say it's @rufamily thinking he isn't the prize of the NJ HS class.

And as you said, Shore area lacrosse still isn't considered up to the level of other areas. So who is he doing it against?

 

[dconifer]

Way to go, RU, even though your team came up just short. Bodes well for the rematch, which I think you can win. I think Rutgers is the second-best team (at worst) in the B1G.

I was watching Live Stats and cheering you guys on while giving out samples on Saturday...

 

[rufamily]

On what specifically ?

He is not the prize of the 2019 class, there are at least 4 attackmen that I have seen play that are better, but they do not play in the weak shore conference

 

[Caliknight]

Downtown's comment was clearly directed toward coaching. Your transparent attempt to deflect is obvious & speaks to your intellectual dishonesty, which is unfortunately one constant on your part. You then demonstrate your mentality by adding another insult in an attempt to cover your backside.

It was clearly directed at those who said we have bad coaching as I said in my post. And others. I responded to Downtown with what happened and options. As he did. Fair discussion.

I stand by my statements. About those who think we have poor coaching and your reading comprehension. You’re always so argumentative. Why?

 

[Caliknight]

Ok, I will try and explain this as best i can, First the huddle when we get in we talk about their options and I would imagine that it went sort of like

1- Should we press the ball or drop back they applied token pressure
2-do not let O'keefe or Ament get the ball going at the goal. and it may have been do not slide off of them at all.
3- SS need to hedge to the inside and force them down the wing
4 defend the paint (Crease)
5- once the ball gets into the box do not let them swing it to the back side (much more difficult save for the goalie)
6- check down on any passes.

The play-- they clear the ball to midfield fairly easily as we do not want to give up the deep pass and want to keep everything in front of us.
PSU pull Ament and Okeefe far above the restraining box forcing our poles to go with them, they put Rall's guy on the crease where he will have to make a choice of sliding to the ball and allowing a shot from the crease or staying on his guy, he chose the latter. Marron defends the catch and turns to run with his guy (Kelly I think) he keeps him down the alley till late kid dips under and finishes in front. if we slide we give them a shot right on the crease or we force Max to make a cross-crease save which is far more difficult. If this happens to me (which it has) it is just a kid making a play and we move on.

What would you do differently, if you drop the poles you give Ament the ball running downhill at the goal, they appear to throw the ball over Michaeli which means he is going to be in a trail position no matter what. If you drop all the way in you are going to need to defend a shot anyway and maybe from one of their best kids. I think the defense was solid and that their kid made a play on our kid.

Clearly what happened. Well stated.

 

[e5fdny]

He is not the prize of the 2019 class, there are at least 4 attackmen that I have seen play that are better, but they do not play in the weak shore conference

See...I can read minds.:alien:

 

[e5fdny]

Clearly what happened. Well stated.

And sometimes it just as simple as this...

Ok, I will try and explain this as best I can...I think the defense was solid and that their kid made a play on our kid.

 

[rbled]

Clearly what happened. Well stated.

Not sure why this is being brought up as somehow a coaching error. The play was defended exactly as you would want given the options. You are banking on our dm keeping the defender down the alley and not getting the edge. The back up plan if he does get the edge is to have Edelman set in position and make the shooter beat him. In this case, the offensive player made two plays - he beat the defender and beat Edelman one on one. Lax is a players game and there are hundreds of individual battles all game long. You win some you lose some. We lost this one. It happens you move on.

 

[e5fdny]

Not sure why this is being brought up as somehow a coaching error. The play was defended exactly as you would want given the options. You are banking on our dm keeping the defender down the alley and not getting the edge. The back up plan if he does get the edge is to have Edelman set in position and make the shooter beat him. In this case, the offensive player made two plays - he beat the defender and beat Edelman one on one. Lax is a players game and there are hundreds of individual battles all game long. You win some you lose some. We lost this one. It happens you move on.

But I condensed it down to one line. ;) LOL

 

[DowntownT_Brown]

Ok, I will try and explain this as best i can, First the huddle when we get in we talk about their options and I would imagine that it went sort of like

.

Thanks rufamily, I appreciate the time and thought you put into this.

Could we have kept the one long pole shadow on Ament and then dropped the remaining defenders back into a zone as if playing man down(box and 1? Not sure what it is called these days) and slid early and often?

With so little time on the clock they didn't have time to develop a play and I like the odds of clogging the alleys and trying to limit them to a look from 12-15 out vs. a short stick 1 v.1 with a clear alley.

Their kid made a play on our kid but that is a match up Penn State will take all day. I don't know that the odds of Kelly(a midfielder with 25 goals) going 1 v. 1 against a short stick with a clear alley to the goal are better than a downhill shot from 15 yards out with RU defenders in the box. Edelmann is one of our strengths so why don't we play to that and give him a chance to make a save because they will be taking a shot either way?

The things that bother me are with so little time 1) we did not keep the ball in front of us, 2) we did not secure the crease 3) we lost the matchup battle.

For the record, I like our coaching staff and do not advocate any major changes. Would I make changes to our tempo at certain times of the game, yes.
This is simply me disagreeing with some of the decisions. This doesn't make them bad, it most likely makes me bad, lol!

 

[mdk01]

Downtown,

The risk there would have been letting O'Keefe get his hands free from medium range.

 

[DowntownT_Brown]

Downtown,

The risk there would have been letting O'Keefe get his hands free from medium range.

For sure but I still like those odds ever so slightly more than Kelly on the doorstep.

You have more variables that will affect that shot than someone 1 on 1 with the goalie.

 

[DowntownT_Brown]

To add to the above you have at least put the defense in a position to offer help on O'Keefe.

We did not have a viable slide option against a dodging midfielder, I am not a fan of that.

 

[rudad02]

It was clearly directed at those who said we have bad coaching as I said in my post. And others. I responded to Downtown with what happened and options. As he did. Fair discussion.

I stand by my statements. About those who think we have poor coaching and your reading comprehension. You’re always so argumentative. Why?

Downtown's comments were clearly made in the context of coaching strategy as I'm sure you realize but can't afford to acknowledge. Why do you always have to be right even when you're wrong?

 

[Caliknight]

And I responded in kind with what happened and what other options could be considered.

Are you going to try and talk strategy or are you going to continue to misread posts and be argumentative? I think I know.

 

[rufamily]

Thanks rufamily, I appreciate the time and thought you put into this.

Could we have kept the one long pole shadow on Ament and then dropped the remaining defenders back into a zone as if playing man down(box and 1? Not sure what it is called these days) and slid early and often?

With so little time on the clock they didn't have time to develop a play and I like the odds of clogging the alleys and trying to limit them to a look from 12-15 out vs. a short stick 1 v.1 with a clear alley.

Their kid made a play on our kid but that is a match up Penn State will take all day. I don't know that the odds of Kelly(a midfielder with 25 goals) going 1 v. 1 against a short stick with a clear alley to the goal are better than a downhill shot from 15 yards out with RU defenders in the box. Edelmann is one of our strengths so why don't we play to that and give him a chance to make a save because they will be taking a shot either way?

The things that bother me are with so little time 1) we did not keep the ball in front of us, 2) we did not secure the crease 3) we lost the matchup battle.

For the record, I like our coaching staff and do not advocate any major changes. Would I make changes to our tempo at certain times of the game, yes.
This is simply me disagreeing with some of the decisions. This doesn't make them bad, it most likely makes me bad, lol!

Sure you could do that but, have they repped that out at all? and now we are talking semantics a little. I watched the play again and they actually do a good job of dragging Michaeli out of the play by using 2 short sticks high which forced him to back off his matchup, if he matches up tighter on his guy they would simply throw it over the top to the other guy who is open or covered by an attackman. If you watch the other poles are actually on the crease but were playing the other 2 attackman and you do not want to give Mac O'keefe a hands-free shot from 3 yards.

 

[rudad02]

And I responded in kind with what happened and what other options could be considered.

Are you going to try and talk strategy or are you going to continue to misread posts and be argumentative? I think I know.

Nice try to save face. Your act is really getting old.

 

[Caliknight]

Downtown,

The risk there would have been letting O'Keefe get his hands free from medium range.

Which based on what I see from that kid shooting, I will take my chances on their last option on offense being forced to make a play. To his credit, he did.

Nevertheless, for anyone who simply say they scored, so it's bad coaching, well, they need to learn more about what they are watching.

 

[rufamily]

For sure but I still like those odds ever so slightly more than Kelly on the doorstep.

You have more variables that will affect that shot than someone 1 on 1 with the goalie.

I actually would prefer the opposite for one reason and that is the goalie. with Kelly coming down the right wing he is set and stable and has an Idea of where the ball is coming from, if you leave O'keefe and they feed it to him Max may never have a chance to make a play on the ball with how fast he gets his shot off