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OT: Electric vehicles

Rutgers Chris said:
You realize the same argument can be made for various features of a car, right? Why do cars go over 90 mph when speed is a top cause of accidents? You could list half a dozen things like this and apply it the same way.
Click to expand...
Well, you got me there. 🤣

Also, one could make an argument for how, eventually when V2X is done and fully automated driving is working well, cars that are built to do so safely will travel at much faster speeds than is possible today.

Cars will be whizzing around each other at scary fast speeds, conditions permitting, because the interconnected nature of cars and the speed of computing will make it safer to do. All that will be required is banning humans from operating any motor vehicles which would introduce too much inconsistency into the system.

However, we can take this argument even farther. If we truly want to make things perfectly safe and error-free, we need to eliminate humans altogether.

sci-fi GIF
 
mildone said:
Well, you got me there. 🤣

Also, one could make an argument for how, eventually when V2X is done and fully automated driving is working well, cars that are built to do so safely will travel at much faster speeds than is possible today.

Cars will be whizzing around each other at scary fast speeds, conditions permitting, because the interconnected nature of cars and the speed of computing will make it safer to do. All that will be required is banning humans from operating any motor vehicles which would introduce too much inconsistency into the system.

However, we can take this argument even farther. If we truly want to make things perfectly safe and error-free, we need to eliminate humans altogether.

sci-fi GIF
Click to expand...
Finally, something we agree on
 
mildone said:
I blame the driver too. But blame won't bring the motorcyclist back.

And by putting that type of badly conceived tech into cars, manufacturers are basically setting up drivers to fail.

manufacturer: hey driver, here's something that makes the car drive itself
manufacturer: we spent a hundred trillion hours making it perfect for you
manufacturer: why do we keep lowering the price if it's so perfect... uh... altruism
manufacturer: it's not good enough not to fail often so remain alert at all times

driver: cool, and uh, what?

manufacturer: don't sweat it, look at this glossy advertisement instead

driver: oh hey, cool

<time passes>

driver: this car just drives itself, this is great, i'll just stay alert though in case, like all software, it has bugs

<more time passes>

driver: been a while and haven't experienced a problem, must mean it's safe to ignore the warnings
driver: i'm getting a text msg from my GF, the car's fine, let me focus on the text
driver: oh no, she's breaking up with me

motorcyclist: i'm totally innocent in all this

driver: so should i type this or that to my GF to get her back?

motorcyclist: i really wish that guy behind me would slow down for the traffic ahead, as I'm doing

car software: the sun is in my eyes, the latest update tells me keep going to avoid customer complaints

motorcyclist: oh fu...

<crash>

driver: wtf did I just hit?

cop: you hit a motorcyclist who's dead under your car, are the handcuffs comfy enough?

manufacturer: not my problem and look at those share prices climb

teslerati: the moral of the story is the motorcyclist should've been in a tesla
teslerati: the driver probably was using the car wrong, teslas are infallible, jalopnik sucks
Click to expand...
You're assuming Autopilot was engaged.
I am not.

I know you relate to the basement dwelling incels that write for Jalopnik, but the accuracy of their reporting is terrible.

Could you please share the safety data you're basing your conclusions about ADAS safety on.
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
You're assuming Autopilot was engaged.
I am not.

I know you relate to the basement dwelling incels that write for Jalopnik, but the accuracy of their reporting is terrible.

Could you please share the safety data you're basing your conclusions about ADAS safety on.
Click to expand...
Good to see you back in this thread. Was starting to wonder if you were OK.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
You're assuming Autopilot was engaged.
I am not.

I know you relate to the basement dwelling incels that write for Jalopnik, but the accuracy of their reporting is terrible.

Could you please share the safety data you're basing your conclusions about ADAS safety on.
Click to expand...
Basement dwelling incels? Why do you insist on insulting people whom you don't understand? It doesn't make them look bad at all, but it makes you look awful.
 
RU-05 said:
Getting these things lighter is a big hurdle.
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This is the problem with OEMs shoehorning an EV from an ICE platform. It doesn't work. You can't engineer an EV that has the same aero of a barn door. Then, to compensate, jam a million batteries into it, making it grossly overweight and inefficient.

Not to worry though. This is not a serious offering from Mercedes. It's another compliance EV. They'll produce a few thousand, then can it.
 
mildone said:
Basement dwelling incels? Why do you insist on insulting people whom you don't understand? It doesn't make them look bad at all, but it makes you look awful.
Click to expand...
I have no problem insulting people that deserve it. The "journalists" at Jalopnik are low life scum. All lies and click bait and never a retraction. Not surprising it's your #1 source for news.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
This is the problem with OEMs shoehorning an EV from an ICE platform. It doesn't work. You can't engineer an EV that has the same aero of a barn door. Then, to compensate, jam a million batteries into it, making it grossly overweight and inefficient.

Not to worry though. This is not a serious offering from Mercedes. It's another compliance EV. They'll produce a few thousand, then can it.
Click to expand...
The cybertruck weighs 6600 lbs.

Fairly significant, but it's not like the cybertruck is half the weight.

Wouldn't be shocked if the Mercedes outsold the CT.
 
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RU-05 said:
Oi vey, dude get a grip.
Click to expand...
Right? You’d think he’d be happy and relaxed given TSLA’s day.

Instead, it’s almost like he sold all his shares a few days ago. Hopefully to pay for some relaxation therapy. 🙂
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
I have no problem insulting people that deserve it. The "journalists" at Jalopnik are low life scum. All lies and click bait and never a retraction. Not surprising it's your #1 source for news.
Click to expand...
Actually, you do have a problem insulting people. You’re really bad at it. As I said earlier, all you’re doing is making yourself look bad.

Okay, that’s not entirely true. In addition to making yourself look bad, you’re also giving me stuff to laugh about which makes me happy. So keep up the insults, ideally aiming them at me which is more fun. And be comforted by knowing you’re contributing to making my days even more wonderful.

Appreciate you, dude. 🙂
 
RU-05 said:
The cybertruck weighs 6600 lbs.

Fairly significant, but it's not like the cybertruck is half the weight.

Wouldn't be shocked if the Mercedes outsold the CT.
Click to expand...
1,100 lbs is a huge difference. It illustrates my point exactly. This was not a ground up design. It's an ICE platform disguised as an EV.

"Mass begets mass, complexity begets complexity"

In aerospace engineering, there is a saying that "mass begets mass". That is, if you want to add some mass to a plane, you can't just add that mass. You also need a bigger engine (more mass) to push that mass. So you need a stronger fuselage to hold that mass (which costs more mass), and you also need more fuel (more mass) to push that mass through the sky. Maybe now you need a bigger tank (more mass) to hold that fuel. But that means you need bigger wings (more mass) to support that mass. Etc.

https://ericnormand.substack.com/p/complexity-begets-complexity

Same is true for auto.

Unless a meteor strikes giga Austin, there is zero chance this Mercedes outsells Cybertruck. Impossible.
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
1,100 lbs is a huge difference. It illustrates my point exactly. This was not a ground up design. It's an ICE platform disguised as an EV.

"Mass begets mass, complexity begets complexity"

In aerospace engineering, there is a saying that "mass begets mass". That is, if you want to add some mass to a plane, you can't just add that mass. You also need a bigger engine (more mass) to push that mass. So you need a stronger fuselage to hold that mass (which costs more mass), and you also need more fuel (more mass) to push that mass through the sky. Maybe now you need a bigger tank (more mass) to hold that fuel. But that means you need bigger wings (more mass) to support that mass. Etc.

https://ericnormand.substack.com/p/complexity-begets-complexity

Same is true for auto.

Unless a meteor strikes giga Austin, there is zero chance this Mercedes outsells Cybertruck. Impossible.
Click to expand...
F-150 is the same weight as the CT. It’s an ev issue. Not an oem ev issue.
 
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RU-05 said:
F-150 is the same weight as the CT. It’s an ev issue. Not an oem ev issue.
Click to expand...
We weren't talking about the Lightning, but ok.
CT has a smaller battery and greater range for the same weight.

Don't perpetuate the myth that "all" EVs have a weight problem. 2 similar sized performance sedans. One ICE, one EV, same weight.
BMW M3: 3,990 lbs
Model 3 Performance: 4,034 lbs
 
jtung230 said:
Can you make batteries lighter?
Click to expand...
It's more about the energy density of the cells. A more energy dense cell requires less cells/pack. But then of course, cost becomes a factor. LFP cells have a lower energy density vs nickel cells, but they're cheap. LFP is currently in a majority of EVs.

But, it's much more than just batteries. Weight can be decreased from every aspect of the vehicle. Decrease wiring lengths and thickness, wiring harnesses, length of hoses, amt of fluid in n those hoses, choice of metals, etc. The Munro YouTube channel is obsessed with weight reduction in EVs. Munro tells his engineers, "Give me 1 gram/day". Eventually all those grams add up, but it's hard work.

Aero is another huge factor.
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
We weren't talking about the Lightning, but ok.
CT has a smaller battery and greater range for the same weight.

Don't perpetuate the myth that "all" EVs have a weight problem. 2 similar sized performance sedans. One ICE, one EV, same weight.
BMW M3: 3,990 lbs
Model 3 Performance: 4,034 lbs
Click to expand...
Honda Accord is 3,280 and Toyota Camry is 3,572. The crib weight issue is real for EVs but it adds stability and better ride. Tesla is able to shave some weight with the minimalist interior. But I think consumers rather have a better interior than lighter car.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
We weren't talking about the Lightning, but ok.
CT has a smaller battery and greater range for the same weight.

Don't perpetuate the myth that "all" EVs have a weight problem. 2 similar sized performance sedans. One ICE, one EV, same weight.
BMW M3: 3,990 lbs
Model 3 Performance: 4,034 lbs
Click to expand...
I’d argue that both the cars you cited have a weight problem.

992 GT3: 3199 lbs
 
Last edited:
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
We weren't talking about the Lightning, but ok.
CT has a smaller battery and greater range for the same weight.

Don't perpetuate the myth that "all" EVs have a weight problem. 2 similar sized performance sedans. One ICE, one EV, same weight.
BMW M3: 3,990 lbs
Model 3 Performance: 4,034 lbs
Click to expand...
you opened the door to F-150’s when you said it was an OEM issue.
 
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jtung230 said:
Honda Accord is 3,280 and Toyota Camry is 3,572. The crib weight issue is real for EVs but it adds stability and better ride. Tesla is able to shave some weight with the minimalist interior. But I think consumers rather have a better interior than lighter car.
Click to expand...
Tesla is shaving weight in many more places besides interior. Don't take my word for it. Munro and Associates are tearing a variety of EVs down to their basic components. Exceptional engineering makes a difference.

 
Speaking of lowering battery weight, increasing energy density, CATL buried the lead on this, but they've pushed LFP density to 205 Wh/kg with a new battery revealed this week. Typically LFP tops out closer to 150 Wh/kg.

Pack boasts 620 miles of range and charging at 10 mins for 370 miles.

Range is a CLTC estimate but would still be quite solid on EPA cycle.

Honestly, as advertised, it's everything anyone should need in terms of range and ICE-level convenience

electrek.co

CATL unveils world's first LFP battery with 4C ultra-fast charging for 370-mi in 10 mins

A new EV battery that can add 370 miles (600 km) range in 10 minutes? China’s CATL introduced its new...
electrek.co electrek.co
 
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fsg2 said:
Speaking of lowering battery weight, increasing energy density, CATL buried the lead on this, but they've pushed LFP density to 205 Wh/kg with a new battery revealed this week. Typically LFP tops out closer to 150 Wh/kg.

Pack boasts 620 miles of range and charging at 10 mins for 370 miles.

Range is a CLTC estimate but would still be quite solid on EPA cycle.

Honestly, as advertised, it's everything anyone should need in terms of range and ICE-level convenience

electrek.co

CATL unveils world's first LFP battery with 4C ultra-fast charging for 370-mi in 10 mins

A new EV battery that can add 370 miles (600 km) range in 10 minutes? China’s CATL introduced its new...
electrek.co electrek.co
Click to expand...
I tried telling you guys LFP is the future. Can we please stop talking about solid state
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
I tried telling you guys LFP is the future. Can we please stop talking about solid state
Click to expand...
solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state solid state
 
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