Thanks RU baseball (by the way I knew a couple baseball guys from just before '78) - Well said - in the end, despite some good opportunities, she decided she wanted more of a college experience and went DIII.
OT--Took my nephew on a tour of Rutgers
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Thanks RU baseball (by the way I knew a couple baseball guys from just before '78) - Well said - in the end, despite some good opportunities, she decided she wanted more of a college experience and went DIII.
Lehigh's strong reputation has extended beyond engineering in the last 20 years or so.
I give around 10 RU tours a year for friends kids. Without a doubt the two negatives are 1a. Multiple campus's, 2a. too much diversity.
It also amazes me how many parents who have lived in NJ their whole lives have never been anywhere near RU and have no idea what it looks like. Some are impressed and say things like" I never realized how nice it is".
RU is doing way better in bringing in the more top tier kids, something like 200-300 valedictorians and salutatorians a year. But..... those coming her are not usually the wealthier of them. They are going to schools that have more cache. RU is also getting a ton of kids from the magnet schools , at least down here in Monmouth County but once again a lot of those students are diverse mostly Asian.
We have to realize the wealthier kids parents expect the "preppy" college look and feel for their kids. Our Greek life homes are a mess compared to most other better known schools and the kids belonging are not Miff and Chad. Do I think this is totally not a way to decide what school to go to, absolutely! But perception is reality. The politics of NJ will never allow RU to change its diversity policy and because of that upper middle class Mom and Dad will send their kids to somewhere else. As for the look of RU, we are doing a better job and Livi and College ave are sprucing up nicely.
BTW I am not against diversity. I am against any students getting in to RU New Brunswick with lower qualifications than others just because were they live (NB, Newark, Camden).
It also amazes me how many parents who have lived in NJ their whole lives have never been anywhere near RU and have no idea what it looks like. Some are impressed and say things like" I never realized how nice it is".
RU is doing way better in bringing in the more top tier kids, something like 200-300 valedictorians and salutatorians a year. But..... those coming her are not usually the wealthier of them. They are going to schools that have more cache. RU is also getting a ton of kids from the magnet schools , at least down here in Monmouth County but once again a lot of those students are diverse mostly Asian.
We have to realize the wealthier kids parents expect the "preppy" college look and feel for their kids. Our Greek life homes are a mess compared to most other better known schools and the kids belonging are not Miff and Chad. Do I think this is totally not a way to decide what school to go to, absolutely! But perception is reality. The politics of NJ will never allow RU to change its diversity policy and because of that upper middle class Mom and Dad will send their kids to somewhere else. As for the look of RU, we are doing a better job and Livi and College ave are sprucing up nicely.
BTW I am not against diversity. I am against any students getting in to RU New Brunswick with lower qualifications than others just because were they live (NB, Newark, Camden).
Absolutely! And in addition to learning to code it is important to at least learn the basics of algorithm design.
I preach to my college-age relatives/friends that it won't be all that long until those who are not able to code --or at least be able to read through code and understand what is happening-- and cannot understand the basics of algorithms will be considered "illiterate." Hyperbole? Sure, but I'm trying to push them in the right direction.
Extremely well said. This is a refreshingly candid and 100% on the money post regarding where we stand admissions and student body wise and, I'll add, as I have in the past, that these demographic realities (and I'm not commenting here on ethnicity, but on economic status) form the basis for our appalling lack of major gifts compared to every college even near our size and many much smaller than us.
I would throw in Statistics as well. The next few decades of business focus will be heavy into Big Data and the advancement of Data Mining.
If you aren't a business strategy type and just want to make a well above average living as a middle to high middle manager, having advanced stats knowledge and the ability to manipulate AND interpret information from large data sets is a way to do it.
Totally agree. Yet, even as admissions standards rise, RU doubles and triples down on the recruitment of the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. It may be admirable, but it puts us at an extreme financial disadvantage.
Yeah but Princeton has been landing kids on Wall Street and in power consulting since the days of Brown Brothers Harriman, Dillon Read and Kuhn Loeb. Has nothing to do with turning out quant jockeys.
I wasn't suggesting it did. I was speaking to the point that they don't have undergrad business. Which they don't. But sensing the sea change in students wanting they type of education, they did create a major that is part engineering, part finance and heavily quantitative.
FWIW, the notion that you need to be undergraduate business to land at a white shoe I Bank is silly. You don't.
From a perspective on gaining entrance into graduate programs (Med School, MBA, etc), how is a 3.2 GPA from an Ivy viewed versus a 3.8 from Rutgers, Lehigh, etc?
I don't want to suggest I'm in any sort of admissions role, as I am not. Just speaking from personal experience, a 3.8 from RU would be >/= a 3.2 from an Ivy, holding other things constant such as major, prior work experience and letters of rec.
If you get an admissions person in a moment of candor, they would likely tell you that Ivy or equivalent gives you a .3 bump in GPA when comparing to another Non Ivy transcript.
That said, where GPA absolutely comes into play is in the interview process for that first job, especially with I Banks and white shoe consulting.
The people doing the initial screening are almost always 1st year Associates (year 1 out of MBA). They are likely looking at the stuff at 11:30 at night in a car on the ride home. lol. They absolutely make their first cuts by GPA alone, unless there is some other worldy mitigating circumstance like varsity athlete on ESPN scoring TDs kinda thing.
Anyone advising kids headed to college re: grades...People who say grades don't matter, got shitty grades. lol...OF COURSE they matter. They won't determine the future course of your life, but they will absolutely open or close certain doors.
A college is a choice and we should not second guess a kid (and his / her parents) choice.
Factors like less diverse, friendlier campus, intern programs, and getting away are important.
Some kids may want to start anew and going to a school where 20 kids from their graduating high school class are at is not what they want.
For some, this may be there best chance to see another state / part of the country. It is very easy to go to school in the 732 or 908 area codes, attend Rutgers, and then get a job in NJ or NYC. This means you have spent your whole life within 50 miles of where you were born.
As mentioned, some kids earn grants and scholarships that greatly narrows the gap between in state Rutgers costs and out of state other school costs.
Rutgers is based around New Brunswick which is an urban environment. Some kids want to be in a rural or suburban environment.
With education and rankings for some kids it is better to go to a school considered lower than Rutgers. This way they can be the big dog in a little pond vs. the avg or small dog in a big pond. It is like being the #3 or 4 hitter on the Yankees vs. a smaller market team that never makes the playoffs. Either can become an all star or hall of famer but one has a tougher environment then the other.
Factors like less diverse, friendlier campus, intern programs, and getting away are important.
Some kids may want to start anew and going to a school where 20 kids from their graduating high school class are at is not what they want.
For some, this may be there best chance to see another state / part of the country. It is very easy to go to school in the 732 or 908 area codes, attend Rutgers, and then get a job in NJ or NYC. This means you have spent your whole life within 50 miles of where you were born.
As mentioned, some kids earn grants and scholarships that greatly narrows the gap between in state Rutgers costs and out of state other school costs.
Rutgers is based around New Brunswick which is an urban environment. Some kids want to be in a rural or suburban environment.
With education and rankings for some kids it is better to go to a school considered lower than Rutgers. This way they can be the big dog in a little pond vs. the avg or small dog in a big pond. It is like being the #3 or 4 hitter on the Yankees vs. a smaller market team that never makes the playoffs. Either can become an all star or hall of famer but one has a tougher environment then the other.
I don't really have the sense that RU is emphasizing minority admissions any more than in the past. The Barchi administration seems to focus much more on increasing average credentials than on minority numbers. Just one prof's opinion.
These are some of the things my daughter is factoring into her search (not listed in any particular order):
1. fit academically, ie GPA, test scores
2. has nursing major
3. direct admit nursing
4. does school have other majors I like in the event I change?
5. art courses available (she is a very good artist)
6. warmer climate than NJ
7. distance from home
8. size of school (doesn't want a small school)
9. % graduate in 4 years (it's amazing how low these numbers are at some schools)
10. % female population
11. urban location
12. D1 football
13. Cost of attendance (Dad and Mom added this one)
1. fit academically, ie GPA, test scores
2. has nursing major
3. direct admit nursing
4. does school have other majors I like in the event I change?
5. art courses available (she is a very good artist)
6. warmer climate than NJ
7. distance from home
8. size of school (doesn't want a small school)
9. % graduate in 4 years (it's amazing how low these numbers are at some schools)
10. % female population
11. urban location
12. D1 football
13. Cost of attendance (Dad and Mom added this one)
I wouldn't waste the effort rationalizing your choice to strangers on a message board. lol
Some of the comments here, while I'm sure sorta well intentioned and beaming with RU pride, have been pretty rude.
Best of luck to her...
One thing I forgot to ask when we spoke with an advisor--Does playing three sports for all four years give a kid a slight edge. For example--Billy plays three sports and has a 3.1 GPA and Tommy is not involved in any extra currucular activities,but has a 3.3 GPA. They both take the same classes. Is the difference in GPA made up ?--Someone mentioned FDU. I think that school is over $50,000 a year. How is it still in business? I get when a kid goes to Drew or Georgian Court since they may want to go for religious reasons or they want a very small school. I just don't get the appeal to FDU. Why not just go to Ramapo,Montclair State, William Paterson, or Kean ?
1. Extras matter. But quality of extras matter more than quantity. Demonstrating leadership roles in 2-3 extras versus just membership in 6-7 is superior. Extras will give you a bump, but applications are looked at holistically. Some admissions people will tell you that the quality of the HS's reputation doesn't factor in. In fact, a former RU admissions officer used to post here and said it didn't at RU. Anecdotally, I find that hard to believe as better rated HS universally show "better" college placements. At this stage, nothing your nephew is going to do about his HS's reputation. But he should absolutely seek out a leadership position in 1-2 groups he has been active with.
Also, extras outside of the high school are hidden gems of application bonus points. Volunteer work, charity work, part time job, mentor programs. future leaders programs, etc.
It's all about demonstrating a well rounded individual. The only time it pays to be a specialist in this situation is if you are a prodigy--a recruited athlete, a concert level musician, an established screen or stage actor, etc. Otherwise, it pays to be a renaissance man.
Also, extras outside of the high school are hidden gems of application bonus points. Volunteer work, charity work, part time job, mentor programs. future leaders programs, etc.
It's all about demonstrating a well rounded individual. The only time it pays to be a specialist in this situation is if you are a prodigy--a recruited athlete, a concert level musician, an established screen or stage actor, etc. Otherwise, it pays to be a renaissance man.
Since you seem to have a bit of insight: Why is "too much diversity" a big deal to kids?
Going back to my college days and straight through to the present, I never understood the idea that diversity is some type of huge selling point for a college. On the flip side, I don't know why it would scare anyone off. Basically, I'd say it is what it is, a distant secondary consideration when looking at colleges or places to live. But I guess that's just me.
This may be a huge generalization,but I think people who are most into diversity come from cities. I don't think the average high school kid from a rural or suburban area cares much about this at all. They aren't looking at demographic breakdowns or saying I must go to a school that has Eskimos, Navajos, Sikhs, a high percentage of left-handed people, lots of disabled Hungarians,etc.
Actually, the admissions officer was largely telling the truth. The reason is that in most cases, RU admits based *purely* on GPA and SAT. Extras and high school reputation matter only in borderline cases. That is often the case at state universities, but it is *not* the case at private institutions. Thus it makes sense to focus on extras if you are a bright high school student.
Great post RU Hudson. Your comments are applicable to scores of threads on this board. It's astounding to me the way so many posters impose their own values on others and fail to see how someone may differ.
That will soon shift if RU hopes to remain competitive with other top tier institutions. The movement to scrap SAT scores is not going anywhere anytime soon. The whole student will matter once again-sooner than later.
Diversity isn't the issue itself, but it almost always means (and this will change in the next generation or so as the demographics of the country change) that a school lacks the trappings and constituencies that upper middle class parents and their kids often seek in a college experience and that, as a general matter, keeps upper middle class kids away from RU. That's because diversity generally means the school consists to a large extent of first generation college attendees, many of whom work and otherwise can't afford or otherwise participate in or demand high quality extracurricular aspects of a true college experience. That lowers the need and demand and expectation for such high quality trappings of college life that many take for granted at a campus like UVA, Michigan, etc. and even some less prestigious State Us compared to RU, etc. One prior poster pointed to the condition of many RU greek houses at RU compared to other places. That is a great example of this issue. Of course RU has some nice Greek houses (the ne ZBT house looks great) and other trappings of a great college experience and it has a few upper middle class kids - but he numbers are far too few to allow RU to get to the next level
Just a quick look at the Greek House's on other Campus's
http://totalfratmove.com/18-of-the-biggest-and-best-fraternity-houses-in-the-country/
I find your post contradictory -- maybe I'm misreading it. If, as you say, the SAT is not going away, then why do you think the "whole student" will become important at state universities like Rutgers?
No maybe. You're misreading.
The movement TO SCRAP SAT scores is not going away...ie: More and more Top Tier schools are leaving SAT scores out of the equation
Thanks for the correction. I'm not sure the anti-SAT movement is as powerful as you say.
850 schools are counting have no SAT or optional SAT policies as of last admissions cycle.
Wellesley, Wake Forest, Temple, etc.
I never commented on the movements "power." Just observing that it is happening.
And all it will take is another 1-2 dozen schools of the caliber of Wellesley and Wake to make RU and its peer group take strong notice.
RU Hudson - I have a slightly different take on the SAT issue. I agree that quite a number of colleges are making it optional. Very few of those would be considered among the "elite" institutions - although Wellesly and Wake are certainly among that group. Even when "optional", however, it is not truly "optional". At least at such "elite" schools" the fact that one did not supply SAT scores is noted. Although not mandatory, such admission officers will presume the score was not reported because it was below the standard scores that have been obtained from prior admitted classes. Such a "presumption" can be offset by a number of factors - GPA; GPA in a difficult curriculum; significant level of AP courses, along with strong grades in such courses; scores on AP exams; SAT II scores (these are subject specific). Indeed at many of the higher end schools at least two SAT II scores are required; strong, and in depth, extra curricular activities. As I think you have accurately noted merely being a member of a bunch of clubs is insignificant. One must demonstrate depth, commitment and high achievement in such situations. The essays have now become an extremely important component of admissions decisions. Folks with otherwise strong records on all of the other considerations will get rejected if their essays are considered sloppy, unimaginative, and basically pedestrian. With so many highly credentialed individuals applying to colleges today the competition is fierce. When one adds the "marketing" efforts of a number of schools to attract high achieving and well off foreign students, the number of available spots is shrinking.
That said, as some others have said in this thread - each individual must go through the process in a manner that suits their interests and who they are as an individual. Focusing on "prestigious" or "elite" is a potentially serious mistake. There are excellent schools throughout the country - it is not limited to what the public or US News & World Report generally considers "prestigious". If you select the one that is a good fit for you then you have made the correct selection.
I think diversity may matter. If a potential student grew up in a NJ town where they average resident is at a higher social economic level (ie. Short Hills or Holmdel) then they may desire a school where more of the students come from families of a similar type. I am not saying they need a school where every student's parents are 1%ers but may desire a school with a higher % of 2nd and 3rd generation college kids or more kids from families of parents who have white collar jobs. Of course cultural background may matter too since a kid of a certain background may desire a school with a greater population of that cultural background. The background is one of the reasons the various religious based schools do so well. A lot of kids that are brought up Catholic desire a Villanova type school where they get a good education with a nice Catholic slant to campus life.
Note that those schools are not nearly as large as most state universities. I'm interested, though, in what the breakdown is between no SAT or optional SAT policies. Many students will submit an SAT anyway in the latter situation, with non-submitters probably being largely minority students (since minority students do poorly on the SAT in relation to their grades.) I'm not doubting you; I just find it hard to believe that a big school will want to go to the trouble of "whole person" consideration except for border-line cases.
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