+ / - Bryant PLUS Drexel (don't read if you think + / - is a waste)

[Greene Rice FIG]

#.....Drexel.......Bryant.....total

#15..4..(1)...3
#0..5..1..6
#22..6..8..14
#23..(3)..(10)..(13)
#24..0..(2)..(2)
#13..8..0..8
#1..8..(2)..6
#4..2..12..14
#42..(6)..(3)..(9)
#11..1..3..4

Over under for comments saying this analysis is a waste is 5 1/2. I think it isn't a waste, but am not quick to draw conclusions.

 

[RRRRUUUU]

Surprised by #24 not being higher. 42 is exactly what it’s looked like so far.

 

[BillyC80]

#.....Drexel.......Bryant.....total

#15..4..(1)...3
#0..5..1..6
#22..6..8..14
#23..(3)..(10)..(13)
#24..0..(2)..(2)
#13..8..0..8
#1..8..(2)..6
#4..2..12..14
#42..(6)..(3)..(9)
#11..1..3..4

Over under for comments saying this analysis is a waste is 5 1/2. I think it isn't a waste, but am not quick to draw conclusions.

Great, now I gotta look up the numbers for all our players. Gimme a minute...

PS: what number is Sheridan?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Great, now I gotta look up the numbers for all our players. Gimme a minute...

PS: what number is Sheridan?

He doesn't have a number. It is a symbol. It looks like the #8 lying on it's side

 

[winfield102]

Our 2 most out of control players are negative in each game.

 

[BillyC80]

Our 2 most out of control players are negative in each game.

And meanwhile Caleb and Paul, two guys I’d like to see getting more minutes, have the highest positive totals on the team.

 

[Arizona Knight]

#.....Drexel.......Bryant.....total

#15..4..(1)...3
#0..5..1..6
#22..6..8..14
#23..(3)..(10)..(13)
#24..0..(2)..(2)
#13..8..0..8
#1..8..(2)..6
#4..2..12..14
#42..(6)..(3)..(9)
#11..1..3..4

Over under for comments saying this analysis is a waste is 5 1/2. I think it isn't a waste, but am not quick to draw conclusions.

If you watched all three games so far these numbers make perfect sense.

 

[ColonelRutgers]

No Niagara game?

 

[4theknights]

And meanwhile Caleb and Paul, two guys I’d like to see getting more minutes, have the highest positive totals on the team.

Caleb and Paul are in control and have only 2 TO's between them and Caleb has none. This keeps up and both will deserve more minutes.

 

[bethlehemfan]

Reaffirms what your eyes tell you

 

[Westcoast]

Plus minus is far from meaningless. Anyone who thinks its meaningless simply dislikes the truth.

If the team constantly outscores the opposition when you are on the court, you obviously contribute in a valuable way (or you play for a Top 10 team and everyone's plus minus is great). If your team constantly is outscored when you are on the court, either your team loses way more than they win or you kinda suck.

If you have the best plus minus on the team, you are obviously doing a lot of stuff right.

 

[Westcoast]

Other thoughts on plus/minus...

Its possible to score a lot and have a poor plus minus. If you play lousy defense and shoot too much (Mello, anyone?) You may have great stats but contribute more to your team losing than winning.

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Not a shocker with Caleb having the highest. Kid does so many little things that arent flashy. He plays winning basketball and needs more minutes

 

[RUChoppin]

Not a shocker with Caleb having the highest. Kid does so many little things that arent flashy. He plays winning basketball and needs more minutes

He hasn't been scoring that much, but he's been very good at limiting opportunities for the other team. Rebounding, assists, and lack of turnovers.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Our 2 most out of control players are negative in each game.

Plus minus is a reference item that doesn't take into account concept or time and score.

Mathis essentially won the Bryant game with a hustle steal in the final minute and got 3 baskets early in the Drexel game, in transition. If you don't get those cheap or easy baskets, you are in trouble.

There are players that are better equipped to play half court and those that are better in transition. In a half court type of game, Young and Mathis aren't expected to be perfect but your defense on the ball would be non existent if it was just left up to Geo and Caleb to do everything.

The best plus minus stats are did the player help the team win....the minus stat line just means a player was on the court when a team happened to score against us and that player had nothing to do with who from the opponent scored or how.

There are better measurements that show who is effective and who isn't, instead of plus minus.

 

[Scarlet83]

Plus minus is a reference item that doesn't take into account concept or time and score.

Mathis essentially won the Bryant game with a hustle steal in the final minute and got 3 baskets early in the Drexel game, in transition. If you don't get those cheap or easy baskets, you are in trouble.

There are players that are better equipped to play half court and those that are better in transition. In a half court type of game, Young and Mathis aren't expected to be perfect but your defense on the ball would be non existent if it was just left up to Geo and Caleb to do everything.

The best plus minus stats are did the player help the team win....the minus stat line just means a player was on the court when a team happened to score against us and that player had nothing to do with who from the opponent scored or how.

There are better measurements that show who is effective and who isn't, instead of plus minus.

Disagree.

Plus/minus is one of many measures that give valuable insight. Of course, no one statistic is the be all end all. But plus/minus is at the top of the list and a very important stat.

 

[RUChoppin]

the minus stat line just means a player was on the court when a team happened to score against us and that player had nothing to do with who from the opponent scored or how.

See, this is a stretch. If you are on the court while the other team scores, then you are part of the defense that was scored on. Defense is a team effort, and a player's positioning/communication/etc are important, even if they are not the one assigned to the scorer at the time the points were scored.

If the team consistently scores less than their opponent while you are on the floor, that not irrelevant. Yes, there can be mitigating factors for every stat - but those generally smooth out a bit over the course of the year.

 

[kcg88]

Malik Hall went 7-7 with five boards, one steal, and one turnover last night.

He had a negative plus/minus.

The stat isn't useless but it can be very limited.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Malik Hall went 7-7 with five boards, one steal, and one turnover last night.

He had a negative plus/minus.

The stat isn't useless but it can be very limited.

VERY limited

 

[BillyC80]

It would be cool to see what a player’s plus/minus is when the opposing team’s top scorer is on the court.

I have touted Caleb’s and Paul’s high plus totals so far this year, but I have no idea who from the opposing team was on the court with them. For all I know, Pike could have put Paul into the game only when the top scorer from the other team was sitting.

Even if that’s true, we still have to outscore the other team to take advantage of when their best player is sitting. That’s one way you win games.

So, over the course of a full season or at least a good number of games I do think plus/minus is one good measure of a player’s value.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

A more useful analysis would be points per possession on O and D when said player was on the floor.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Caleb has been pretty bad on offense so far. His high plus minus could be random or it could mean he is giving contributions defensively

I’d think a Plus minus might have a coefficient in a mathematical equation that explains The persons contribution to the outcome of about a Positive .1 to .2. Not a negative number but nothing close to 1

 

[kcg88]

Caleb has been pretty bad on offense so far. His high plus minus could be random or it could mean he is giving contributions defensively

I’d think a Plus minus might have a coefficient in a mathematical equation that explains The persons contribution to the outcome of about a Positive .1 to .2. Not a negative number but nothing close to 1

Caleb hasn't turned it over once. That's pretty important. He also made the nice pass to Yeboah at the end of the Drexel game... Yeboah got fouled. Doesn't go down as an assist but it was just as important.

 

[winfield102]

Mathis hasn't played well in transition. If he isn't ahead of everyone, he makes poor decisions and forces it. It's crazy how often he gets himself into a terrible position when he drives.
He has success when he runs out early ahead of everyone else and gets uncontested layups/dunks. Young can't do that?

I see Young having the potential to take Mathis's minutes. That said, I haven't paid close enough attention to Young's defense.

 

[BillyC80]

Caleb has been pretty bad on offense so far.

Can’t agree with this assessment, only that he hasn’t made a good percentage of his shots yet.

Bad offense to me is taking bad shots and/or turning the ball over, which he hasn’t done. He has handled the ball well, passed the ball well, and has had a couple of assists, a couple of offensive rebounds, a few made shots and made FTs in his somewhat limited time on the court.

If that makes his offensive performance “neutral” so far, then so be it. He then gives you outstanding defense, a couple of steals, a couple of blocks and a good number of defensive rebounds that warrant his plus rating. His shot making will come, and I think pretty soon...

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

No...you can't be in the position he is and not take shots and pass up open looks. He is afraid of making mistakes and missing shots. It would be best, in my opinion, to bring him off the bench.

I fully expect him sooner than later playing with more confidence on the offensive end and see him taking and making perimeter shots.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Caleb has been INEFFECTIVE on the offense end is a better wording.

 

[RUChoppin]

A more useful analysis would be points per possession on O and D when said player was on the floor.

I agree with this - this is probably a better look than just straight +/-

 

[Russ Wood]

Best thread title I've seen this year

 

[Westcoast]

VERY limited

Any stat can be misleading in a very limited sample set. But if you are at the bottom of your team's plus minus all year long...

The only conclusion is the opposition does better when you are playing than when you're not. And there's no good way to spin that.

As for the example above, in a 3 point game, its possible everybody on MSU and Seton Hall were all within a couple points of each other plus/minus wise. (Limited sample size). But its also possible a guy shot 7 for 7 but played terrible defense, turned it over a few times, missed wide open teammates, etc etc. If you go 7 for 7 but the guy you guard goes 5-5 from 3 and you foul him on 2 of those and he scores 17 to your 14, are you really having a good game?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Very interesting looking at the St. Bonnies game

Myles +12
Harper +5 (only played 19 mins)
Caleb +4
Montez 0
Paul -1
Geo -2
Yeboah -5
Duke -6
Young -9
Kiss -13 (sorry he was awful)
Carter -15

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Very interesting looking at the St. Bonnies game

Myles +12
Harper +5 (only played 19 mins)
Caleb +4
Montez 0
Paul -1
Geo -2
Yeboah -5
Duke -6
Young -9
Kiss -13 (sorry he was awful)
Carter -15

These things hold true. Caleb consistently makes winning plays. Kiss playing for that 6 minute stretch was mind blowing. Pike was completely lost that game.

it is also becoming a trend that Jacob Young is consistently one of our worst +/- guys. He doesnt playing winning basketball and doesnt do little things. His rebounding % numbers are putrid

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I suppose if one wanted to draw a conclusion about the game (would be weak based on +/-) is that our starting lineup did OK and if it wasnt for foul trouble to Harper and Johnson the outcome would have been different.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

looking at 3 close games
#22..6..8..4....18
#15..4..(1)...12....15
#4..2..12..(1)...13
#0..5..1..(2)...4
#24..0..(2)..5...3
#13..8..0..8..(15)...1
#1..8..(2)..(5)...1
#11..1..3..(6)..(2)
#23..(3)..(10)..0...(13)
#42..(6)..(3)..(9)..(21)

New lineup
PG Mulcahy
SG Baker
WF McConnell
PF Harper
C Johnson

6th man Yeboah
7th man Carter

DOBO Mathis
Asst. Coach J. Young