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Carli Lloyd says U.S. women's soccer stars should earn more money than men 'because we win'

She is speaking about it because the woman are in the process of negotiating their contract with USA Soccer.

Its an interesting argument: The woman are paid less than their male counterparts for the (gender aside) the same job description. But its not that cut and dried. The woman chose a contract that gave them certain guarantees (basically a minimum salary and health benefits) but did not provide the upside that the men have. This was due to the fact they make so little with their club teams.The men are paid per game and get higher pay for better results ( a win pays more than a tie which pays more than a loss). The woman now want the same deal as the men. Based on their level of success the woman would make a lot more under a per game contract USA Soccer has their arguments such as the men make more money. However part of that is due to FIFA paying considerably more for men's programs than it does for woman - Germany got $35 million for winning the 2014 WC, USA got $2 million for the woman's title in 2015.
There are also complaints about field conditions - FIFA allowed turf fields for the 2015 WC, they never would do the same for the men.
It will be an interesting fight - the woman have bought their argument to the EEOC who is now taking a close look.

I ssay good for the girls, let them get all they can. They are the best in the world at their sport and have a huge following in the USA.

One thing that smacked of sexism is that the men fly first class and the woman fly coach. Thats sort of ridiculous.
 
What happens if they start losing? Will they give some of the money back? Not taking sides, just asking a question.
 
They can never lose a game and it wouldn't matter. They don't generate the same revenue.
 
LC-88 said:
What happens if they start losing? Will they give some of the money back? Not taking sides, just asking a question.
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I guess what would happen when a MLB team signs a guy who has averaged 30 hoe runs a year and then he only hits 20. He gets paid the contract. You negotiate based on your market value at the time and hope for the best after that.
 
Caliknight said:
They can never lose a game and it wouldn't matter. They don't generate the same revenue.
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The woman earned more revenue for USA Soccer in 2015 and are projected to do so in 2016 but most other years the men made more.
 
Caliknight said:
Women had a World Cup in 15. I will believe the 16 numbers when I see them.
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The forecast was probably assuming that the would have a victory tour after the Olympics so they may very well fall short of the forecast. However the high water mark for the woman was above the highest amount for the men during the 5 year period that was reviewed.
Complicating the revenue issue is that USA Soccer combines the 2 teams when negotiating TV contracts. I believe the men have higher average ratings but the 2015 Woman;s Cup Final was the highest rated soccer game ever in this country. Also complicating the revenue issue is FIFA which pays far less to the woman's programs then it does the men's. Over the years Seth Blatter has made comments about woman's soccer such as "the uniforms should be tighter" so its not a stretch to accuse FIFA of discrimination.
When travelling, USA Soccer pays for first class for the men but coach for the woman. That certainly does not seem right and its things like this that the EEOC is looking at besides the wage issue.
 
They ought to be paid more than the men. Have been the far more successful side for years & years, hands down.
 
Still think the men's team has the bigger following and so I believe they should get paid more. Both should fly first class though.
 
Which team gets better ratings?

It probably depends on what type of game it is (World Cup, friendly, etc.)

Personally, I have very little interest watching the men and love watching the women play.
 
Let's see the link for that.

Men's WC brings in way more. I don't believe friendlies or tournament comps bring in the same or close to it either.

Saw US play England in a friendly. 80k at soldier field. No way could the women do that.

Lloyds reasoning doesn't make sense anyway. Just winning doesn't mean money. There has to be a market.
 
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Caliknight said:
Let's see the link for that.

Men's WC brings in way more. I don't believe friendlies or tournament comps bring in the same or close to it either.

Saw US play England in a friendly. 80k at soldier field. No way could the women do that.

Lloyds reasoning doesn't make sense anyway. Just winning doesn't mean money. There has to be a market.
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As I posted earlier, which team brings more prestige to the US & has so for at least decades? Not even close, the Women. How is that measured in $$?
 
rudad02 said:
As I posted earlier, which team brings more prestige to the US & has so for at least decades? Not even close, the Women. How is that measured in $$?
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That is subjective. Many people don't even care about women's sports. If you are saying you should be paid more, financials need to be considered.

It's like one of those Uconn WNBA players saying they should make as much as Lebron.
 
Caliknight said:
That is subjective. Many people don't even care about women's sports. If you are saying you should be paid more, financials need to be considered.

It's like one of those Uconn WNBA players saying they should make as much as Lebron.
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I didn't say financials shouldn't be considered. I spoke to the prestige that the Women have brought to the US. vs what the Men have brought. Do you think that the men have brought more? In addition, which team has inspired more little boys or girls to take up the sport & to excel & to grow the sport? I'm speculating that it's the women's. As far as many people not caring about women's sports- classic illustration of specious reasoning. Many people don't care about men's sports, so what. Go to a men's & a women's soccer game at RU & see 3 or 4 times the crowd at the women's game than at the men's game. In addition, which team do you think is bringing more prestige to RU. I'll answer that, the Women. Winning matters.
 
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We aren't talking about winning. We are talking about money. Lloyd wants cold hard cash. Financials are all that matters. If she wants to take up donations so she can get paid more, have it. If all she is saying is thry have more prestige than the men and they win more, fine. But that doesn't equate to more pay anymore than the WNBA champions does winning more than the 76ers.

It's a silly argument trying to capitalize on this equal pay social justice stuff.

Fill up an 80k stadium in a game that means nothing. Then she will have a point.
 
AreYouNUTS said:
Say what?
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In 2015 the women turned a profit of 16.6 million dollars while the men turned a profit of 6.6 million dollars. But the 4 year average puts the men ahead.

and for 2016 the women are set to have a 5 million dollar profit while the men are looking like they will lose 1 million on the year.
 
Caliknight said:
We aren't talking about winning. We are talking about money. Lloyd wants cold hard cash. Financials are all that matters. If she wants to take up donations so she can get paid more, have it. If all she is saying is thry have more prestige than the men and they win more, fine. But that doesn't equate to more pay anymore than the WNBA champions does winning more than the 76ers.

It's a silly argument trying to capitalize on this equal pay social justice stuff.

Fill up an 80k stadium in a game that means nothing. Then she will have a point.
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These are National teams, & winning certainly does matter. The Women's team certainly has brought more credit & prestige to the US over the last decades than has the Men's. That result has great value. In fact that is the goal of the National teams--to win. The Women have & the Men haven't.You keep ignoring this fact. These teams are not playing for bottom line, profit making corporations. Equating this situation to the WNBA vs the 76ers is a false analogy. And I didn't mention social justice. Not that social justice stuff & social justice isn't a laudable goal for any society. The Women win & have won on the biggest International stages, in fact they have overall been the World's top team for a very long time. The Men aren't even close. Time to pay up.
 
rudad02 said:
These are National teams, & winning certainly does matter. The Women's team certainly has brought more credit & prestige to the US over the last decades than has the Men's. That result has great value. In fact that is the goal of the National teams--to win. The Women have & the Men haven't.You keep ignoring this fact. These teams are not playing for bottom line, profit making corporations. Equating this situation to the WNBA vs the 76ers is a false analogy. And I didn't mention social justice. Not that social justice stuff & social justice isn't a laudable goal for any society. The Women win & have won on the biggest International stages, in fact they have overall been the World's top team for a very long time. The Men aren't even close. Time to pay up.
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You are ignoring simple math. You should donate money directly so you feel better about things.
 
gef21 said:
In 2015 the women turned a profit of 16.6 million dollars while the men turned a profit of 6.6 million dollars. But the 4 year average puts the men ahead.

and for 2016 the women are set to have a 5 million dollar profit while the men are looking like they will lose 1 million on the year.
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Show links. And let's compare apples to apples.
 
gef21 said:
In 2015 the women turned a profit of 16.6 million dollars while the men turned a profit of 6.6 million dollars. But the 4 year average puts the men ahead.

and for 2016 the women are set to have a 5 million dollar profit while the men are looking like they will lose 1 million on the year.
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So you made that comment based on a single season? One in which, uhm, they played in a World Cup, right?
 
Comparing WC years to each other isn't close. As are non WC years to qualifiers and friendlies.

Using college sports as an example is irrelevant. These are professional players looking for money, not college kids playing school sponsored sport (which I would also be very surprised if Mens' Soccer @ RU doesn't have significantly more donations and than the women's squad). But that is irrelevant.

The are professional players playing for love of country AND compensation. As such, simple finances must be taken into consideration. I'd be careful what these women are asking for, they just might get it. And that is likely to come at the expense of the the girls they say they are trying to inspire.

Lastly, our women's team SHOULD dominate. They are very well funded compared to their counterparts. Some of these other teams they are playing against are part time players. Obviously the men are playing on a much different level.
 
Caliknight said:
You are ignoring simple math. You should donate money directly so you feel better about things.
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And you are ignoring all the other relevant factors. One again these are national teams representing their country, & the women have done it far more effectively than the men. They should be compensated accordingly. They are not playing for corporate entities whose bottom line is $$. And I don't need anyone telling me what I ought to do with my money. Lloyd had the guts to step up & put herself on the line & be a leader. Good for her & best of luck.
 
rudad02 said:
And you are ignoring all the other relevant factors. One again these are national teams representing their country, & the women have done it far more effectively than the men. They should be compensated accordingly. They are not playing for corporate entities whose bottom line is $$. And I don't need anyone telling me what I ought to do with my money. Lloyd had the guts to step up & put herself on the line & be a leader. Good for her & best of luck.
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Ummm, they are asking for money. This is all about money. The are certainly playing for corporate money. That's exactly what they are asking for!
 
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Caliknight said:
Ummm, they are asking for money. This is all about money. The are certainly playing for corporate money. That's exactly what they are asking for!
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Yes it's about compensation. It's not necessarily about what you generate in revenue. If you keep moving the goal posts & refusing to concede on points that don't fit your pre-conceived conclusion, you can win every argument. This is a national team playing for a national federation, not a classic corporate entity whose only goal is profit. The goal of a national team is to WIN, a point you somehow keep missing. That's why they keep score & have 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th places. To reward the first place finisher as Champion. The Women have accomplished this feat on Multiple occasions on the largest stages. They have achieved the ultimate goal. The Men haven't come anywhere close on a single occasion. As a result the Women have brought prestige & credit to the US, what the federation wants. That's why the Women were given a ticker tape parade in NYC & the men were nowhere to be seen.

Look at what Vivian Stringer makes & has made relative to all our other coaches. It certainly has nothing to do with the revenue that she has generated. It is because of the winning records & the success of her program over a long period of time. Her program has brought prestige & credit to Rutgers. She has been rewarded on that basis. Clearly, in my view, it is past time for her, but that's a topic for another conversation. The point is that she was compensated for her previous accomplishments & for what they meant to RU.
 
If you are asking for compensation, it is about what you generate. That is all this is about. Winning doesn't matter in this regard. It's why WNBA champions make 1/50th of what the 76ers make.

It if was just about winning, they wouldn't be looking for money. It's about nothing more than money and the financials don't support it.
 
Caliknight said:
If you are asking for compensation, it is about what you generate That is all this is about. Winning doesn't matter in this regard. It's why WNBA champions make 1/50th of what the 76ers make.

It if was just about winning, they wouldn't be looking for money. It's about nothing more than money and the financials don't support it.
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I think there is a legal point that you are not considering. Ithe case of USA Soccer, unlike the NBA/WNBA example, the same employer is paying woman less for doing the same job as the men. That is one of the points that Lloyd and her teammates are arguing.
 
The WNBA has a number of teams that also have the same owner as the NBA franchise.

If Carli Lloyd was doing the same job, we would have seen her playing against men.

If that were the case, she would have a leg to stand on. As it is, she doesn't. She isn't doing the same job anymore than someone playing on the U20 women's team is doing the same job as the US Men's National team.

Two totally separate entities with completely different financials.
 
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It may be an inconvenient truth to some but these are National Teams playing for a National Federation. The overarching Goal of each is to Win in International competition. The Women have achieved that Goal in spades on the largest International stages over a long period of time. The Men are nowhere close. There is the distinct element of Nationalism at play in this equation. Financial revenues are clearly a pronounced secondary consideration. The classic capitalistic model does not apply in these circumstances with regard to compensation no matter how hard one tries to jam that square peg into this round hole. When asked to justify her & her teammates position Carli Lloyd's response was absolutely correct: "We Win".
 
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Again, you keep getting away from one simple fact. They are asking for money, not playing for their country. And they are funded much better than their counterparts. In short, they should win. Asking for more money? Fine- let's see if the financials support it.

This isn't about nationalism. It's about money. Winning isn't enough. They get respect and accolades for that.
 
Caliknight said:
Again, you keep getting away from one simple fact. They are asking for money, not playing for their country. And they are funded much better than their counterparts. In short, they should win. Asking for more money? Fine- let's see if the financials support it.

This isn't about nationalism. It's about money. Winning isn't enough. They get respect and accolades for that.
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But yes, they are playing for their National Federation & their Country in International competition. That is exactly what they are doing. To argue otherwise is simply rejecting the obvious. And they are asking to be compensated based on the results of their winning, which is the Ultimate goal of the National Federation. And it is by definition about Nationalism. The financials don't need to support their demand for better compensation. Their play & overwhelming success in fulfilling the goal of the Federation already has. Let's see how they do!
 
Caliknight said:
The WNBA has a number of teams that also have the same owner as the NBA franchise.

If Carli Lloyd was doing the same job, we would have seen her playing against men.

If that were the case, she would have a leg to stand on. As it is, she doesn't. She isn't doing the same job anymore than someone playing on the U20 women's team is doing the same job as the US Men's National team.

Two totally separate entities with completely different financials.
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I guarantee you that the owners of the NBA and WNBA teams are set up as separate legal entities. USA Soccer is the employer of both men's and woman's teams.

Playing on a U20 team is not the same job description and playing on the National Team.

USA Soccer negotiates a single TV contract that includes both teams making it difficult to see who generates what share of the revenue. Keep in mind that the highest rated soccer game in US TV history is a woman's game.

Revenue from FIFA is slanted because FIFA has historically been a sexist organization. Seth Blatter made statements over the years that make Donald Trump look like an angel. FIFA allowed the woman's WC to be played on artificial turf, something they would never do to the men, thus increasing the chance of injury/ FIFA's payouts are much lower for the woman then for the men - I mean ridiculously lower, The woman should probably not be punished for that come contract negotiation.

Previously the woman negotiated a contract that guaranteed them a livable wage and health benefits. They did this because their earning potential outside of the USWNT was limited. Now they see that they played more games than the men and have had greater success. So they are now asking for the same pay scale as the men which pays per game and more for a win then for a loss. They are taking on more risk under such an arrangement but based on their level of play they think they will do better. I say give it to them.
 
rudad02 said:
But yes, they are playing for their National Federation & their Country in International competition. That is exactly what they are doing. To argue otherwise is simply rejecting the obvious. And they are asking to be compensated based on the results of their winning, which is the Ultimate goal of the National Federation. And it is by definition about Nationalism. The financials don't need to support their demand for better compensation. Their play & overwhelming success in fulfilling the goal of the Federation already has. Let's see how they do!
Click to expand...

I think we have made our positions clear. We can agree to disagree on it.
 
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