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Christie going to investigate RU crime problem; petition calling attention

NotInRHouse

NotInRHouse

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Oct 17, 2007
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Will we actually see some change? It's a great (and justified) opportunity for union-hating. A petition has 3000 signatures calling attention to the issue...here's the crime tally (I think I may be missing one)

- William McCaw murdered on Hartwell Street (February 15)
- Female student assaulted on Easton
- House robbed and pistol whipping on Louis
- Woman assaulted and robbed on Livingston Ave

We know that in December was when RU's patrol territory shrunk with no explanation.

It's unlikely a coincidence. The criminal element is NB has been emboldened by the PD's corrupt and at best lackadaisical attitude towards violent crime against RU students.

Any chance the AG gets anything done?

This post was edited on 3/18 8:30 PM by NotInRHouse

link
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Will we actually see some change? It's a great (and justified) opportunity for union-hating. A petition has 3000 signatures calling attention to the issue...here's the crime tally (I think I may be missing one)

- William McCaw murdered on Hartwell Street (February 15)
- Female student assaulted on Easton
- House robbed and pistol whipping on Louis
- Woman assaulted and robbed on Livingston Ave

We know that in December was when RU's patrol territory shrunk with no explanation.

It's unlikely a coincidence. The criminal element is NB has been emboldened by the PD's corrupt and at best lackadaisical attitude towards violent crime against RU students.

Any chance the AG gets anything done?

This post was edited on 3/18 8:30 PM by NotInRHouse
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Actually it likely is coincidence.
 
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Will we actually see some change? It's a great (and justified) opportunity for union-hating. A petition has 3000 signatures calling attention to the issue...here's the crime tally (I think I may be missing one)

- William McCaw murdered on Hartwell Street (February 15)
- Female student assaulted on Easton
- House robbed and pistol whipping on Louis
- Woman assaulted and robbed on Livingston Ave

We know that in December was when RU's patrol territory shrunk with no explanation.

It's unlikely a coincidence. The criminal element is NB has been emboldened by the PD's corrupt and at best lackadaisical attitude towards violent crime against RU students.

Any chance the AG gets anything done?

This post was edited on 3/18 8:30 PM by NotInRHouse
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Actually it likely is coincidence.
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could you elaborate?
 
There are three options here

1. Crime is moving to where the students are
2. Students are moving to where the crime is
3. Its a statistical anomaly - nothing has really changed in the pattern of crime or student day to day travel patterns.

Among other things - what was the existing rate of crime before hand in those areas. Are NB criminals really that in tune with the patrol patterns of RU cops, and did they even see them in the same light as they saw NB cops. The murder obviously makes this time period stand out - but lets say the murder didn't take place - would anyone here really be surprised to hear that over a three month period an assault, a home invasion, and a mugging took place in NB? What if the guy who was murdered were just another towny in the wrong place at the wrong time instead of a guy who was visiting his friends at Rutgers - would that change the perspective?

Like cancer clusters and other seeming patterns in the noise, the most likely answer is - humans are really good at finding patterns in the noise.
 
thanks, derleider. What you say makes sense to me. This is why we need scientists like you: to explain statistical inference to mere lawyers!
 
Students have not been moving towards the crime. Hartwell, Louis, Easton, and High street are all loaded with students (I forgot the High street assault) and it has been that way since 2003 at least when I started at RU. Livingston Ave, I'll give you, but remember, it was 7PM so dusk and that area has MGSA and Rockoff for some time now.

Also, it's winter, and one of the coldest and snowiest in recent memory. Crime typically goes up in summer, it seems unlikely that a spike would come in the worst winter in recent memory.

Additionally, even subtracting the murder, that's 4 assaults in what, 2-3 weeks? That's a lot. Yes, people would notice. I don't think there has been such a violent period since NB really improved in the late 90s-early 2000s.

This isn't a case of gentrification...say when hipsters started moving into Bushwick or as we are seeing a little bit now as people move into JC Heights. These are places that have been student dominated for some time.

I graduated from RU in 2007. I never remember anyone dashing home or fearing being murdered, though I did avoid certain "points" even within 5th and 6th for when townie invasions were expected.

There are simply too many odd factors at play here that make outside investigation a necessity. An AG investigation of the NBPD is well overdue- and should have happened when they had a beating and wrongful detention in the period of two weeks.
 
The numbers are so small that it could easily be random variation. The key number is not the number of spectacular crimes,, but the crime rate this winter versus last winter, and the key question is whether there is a statistically significant change.

Has anyone but me heard of the muckraking journalist Lincoln Steffens, who was active at the beginning of the 20th century and the end of the 19th century? He once wrote about he started a "crime wave" by reporting all of the crime for a week.
 
lived on division street from 1998 through 2000. Never felt unsafe. The entire area going from College avenue across easton ave towards Louis Street was filled with a very significant student population.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

Students have not been moving towards the crime. Hartwell, Louis, Easton, and High street are all loaded with students (I forgot the High street assault) and it has been that way since 2003 at least when I started at RU. Livingston Ave, I'll give you, but remember, it was 7PM so dusk and that area has MGSA and Rockoff for some time now.

Also, it's winter, and one of the coldest and snowiest in recent memory. Crime typically goes up in summer, it seems unlikely that a spike would come in the worst winter in recent memory.

Additionally, even subtracting the murder, that's 4 assaults in what, 2-3 weeks? That's a lot. Yes, people would notice. I don't think there has been such a violent period since NB really improved in the late 90s-early 2000s.

This isn't a case of gentrification...say when hipsters started moving into Bushwick or as we are seeing a little bit now as people move into JC Heights. These are places that have been student dominated for some time.

I graduated from RU in 2007. I never remember anyone dashing home or fearing being murdered, though I did avoid certain "points" even within 5th and 6th for when townie invasions were expected.

There are simply too many odd factors at play here that make outside investigation a necessity. An AG investigation of the NBPD is well overdue- and should have happened when they had a beating and wrongful detention in the period of two weeks.
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Just to be clear = I'm making a very narrow point - the recent uptick is likely a statistical anomaly - not some reaction to the pullback of RU police presence.

I'm sure the NB police could use investigating. NB could definitely be safer. There could very well be longer term trends towards more violent crime that juts happens to be coalescing into a random "crime wave" this month against RU students.
 
Some crime stats

Posted this on the CE board.. copied here so you all could use it..

Before I started this post I fully expected to find that crime wasn't that much of a problem in NB. My gut (which was wrong) told me that the crime just got more attention because it is a college town.

The 2013 UCR is not up yet...


2010 UCR
New Brunswick
pop 52,245
violent crime 361
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 3
forcible rape 16
robbery 164
aggravated assault 178
property crime 1,372
burglary 410
larceny-theft 842
motor vehicle theft 120
arson 10


2011 UCR
New Brunswick
pop 55,365
violent crime 479
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 3
forcible rape 7
robbery 250
aggravated assault 219
property crime 1,609
burglary 404
larceny-theft 1,102
motor vehicle theft 103
arson 12


2012 UCR
New Brunswick
pop 55,717
violent crime 382
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 8
forcible rape 24 ...**** this really stands out
robbery 216
aggravated assault 134
property crime 1,511
burglary 557
larceny-theft 871
motor vehicle theft 83
arson 8

Crime seems like a fairly steady thing over these 3 years.

I downloaded the 2012 spreadsheet.. same link from above... and sorted in a variety of ways and come up with the following:

New Brunswick is slightly smaller in population than Bayonne.. but has almost 3X the violent crime.

Atlantic City 40K pop, is smaller than New Brunswick and has almost 2X the violent crime.

I'm trying to find another urban "college town" in NJ similar to New Brunswick, Montclair? 38K pop to 56K.. more upscale I'd think.. 49 to 382, NB has much more violent crime.

Hoboken.. 51K pop has less than half the violent crime, 150 to 382

Plainfield (50K) has similar crime numbers across the board. NB is number 11.. that is pitiful. 28th most populous town and 11th in violent crime. 11th in Robbery as well. 8th in Forcible Rape in 2012. Camden number 1 by a lot.. my condolences to Rutgers-Camden students.

Here is the top 20 in sheer number of violent crimes..

town - pop - violent crimes


Newark 278,906 3,220
Camden 77,665 1,993
Jersey City 251,554 1,847
Paterson 147,148 1,552
Trenton 85,317 1,251
Elizabeth 126,281 1,007
Irvington 54,274 708
Atlantic City 39,722 699
Passaic 70,237 513
New Brunswick 55,717 382
East Orange 64,682 364
Plainfield 50,332 358
Bridgeton 25,378 322
Orange 30,329 262
Union City 67,518 250
Millville 28,651 248
Asbury Park 16,211 247
Perth Amboy 51,345 233
Vineland 61,252 225


BTW.. I will guess that the cold winter will suppress some crime and the numbers might show lower when they get published.





This post was edited on 3/19 1:56 PM by GoodOl'Rutgers
 
When you "ride by on a fast horse" this makes it look like students are committing crimes against other students on Voorhees Mall.

Is that happening? No it's not.

Are these things happening in NB proper? Yes they are.

So does Rutgers University have a crime problem? No it doesn't.

Does the City of New Brunswick have a crime problem? Yes it does.

Whether this happens to a Rutgers student or not, if it didn't happen on campus or it wasn't student on student I don't see how this is a "Rutgers crime" problem.

Should we be concerned? Of course. But to say this is a "Rutgers crime" problem as the headline is wrong. VERY wrong.
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Crime was shit when I was there in the early 00s. Anyone remember the serial rapist, or the armed robber/assault/ rape a few houses off coll ave?

It happened 10-15 years ago and I'm sure it existed before then. The reality is that you have too many low income rentals interwoven with college students. Look at the birchwoods... The apt complex right before it on Hamilton is a war zone. Students also have shifted further out for financial reasons.
 
Re: Some crime stats



I'm trying to find another urban "college town" in NJ similar to New Brunswick, Montclair? 38K pop to 56K.. more upscale

OT but i've never seen any evidence of 'college' in Montclair when downtown at. all. Montclair is more like a South Orange that just happens to have a university on its northern border. NB and Montclair aren't comparable in this respect.

Maybe it's time for foot patrols... Get the cops out of the cars
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There certainly are low-income rentals in the 5th and 6th but there are FAR more students over there.

Everyone on my block was a student.

Also many of those are rented by illegal immigrants...who have not fit the description of the suspects in any of the crimes. I worked with that community when I was at RU. They were afraid to give their names nevermind beat the crap out of people.

Also, if you notice the townie flashpoints, like Giovanelli's, are always loaded with cars. Louis Street to over there is walkable. And people in the low-income rentals over there don't own cars.

Crime was worse back then. But the problem shouldn't resurface- which is is what makes this whole thing IMO likely to be linked to some outside force.

You have an area that has been "gentrified" for a good decade at least going from New Street north.

Now, all of a sudden, we have more crime than Plainfield or East Orange.

On this board we talk about people coming to NB to walk around...how many people go for a stroll in Plainfied?

This is troubling and the lack of response from the NBPD and RU's response being more emails won't cut it.
 
Like I said - gentrifiction can cause the issue if you are moving criminals into areas that weren't criminal before.

You'll notice its not resurfacing in the gentrified areas.
 
My thought on that is that the crime "area"- roughly bounded by Somerset St, Franklin Township, and Easton Ave...has been "gentrified" for many years...the effect that you are proposing would apply more to George Street, where ironically, it's not happening. It's not like residents of the condos and apartments down there- who presumably carry more valuables and cash than RU students- are getting mugged and assaulted.

Students have been living in the 5th and 6th for a decade at least. Kids were living on Louis and Hartwell then. I went to parties there in students' houses. Bands did shows in basements (Thursday was one of them).

It seems more like what is happening in Millburn- which is Newark based criminals crossing in.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

My thought on that is that the crime "area"- roughly bounded by Somerset St, Franklin Township, and Easton Ave...has been "gentrified" for many years...the effect that you are proposing would apply more to George Street, where ironically, it's not happening. It's not like residents of the condos and apartments down there- who presumably carry more valuables and cash than RU students- are getting mugged and assaulted.

Students have been living in the 5th and 6th for a decade at least. Kids were living on Louis and Hartwell then. I went to parties there in students' houses. Bands did shows in basements (Thursday was one of them).

It seems more like what is happening in Millburn- which is Newark based criminals crossing in.
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What did Willie Sutton say?

Same thing thing whether it's Millburn or NB (close to campus).

Everybody has more "stuff" these days. And a lot of the time we are carrying said "stuff" on our person or it's lying around our house in plain view.
 
Yeah but the problem isn't that people are being flashy. The girl on Easton was attacked from behind, so the attacker didn't even know whether she had an Iphone or watch or whatever.

This stuff (with perhaps the exception of the pistol whip) seems more in line with "knockout"...beating the crap out of someone just cause. The Easton, High and Livingston Ave assaults all fit this mold. Knockout has resulted in death before and it would not surprise me if the Hartwell Street murder victim was a knockout gone too far.

In Millburn you had that guy just bust into a house and start beating the crap out of a lady for while her baby sat there.

it's almost a peverse satisfaction from hurt, rather than a quick cash grab. I think that's why society doesn't like confronting these issues as much.

5 incidents in a month is way too many. Thankfully, you don't hear about this in most places in NJ- I don't attribute it to a wealth gap. I attribute it to brazen idiots and apathy towards them.
 
Youve got it backwards - George Street got gentrified. The people who live there now have enough money that the city might actually consider protecting them. Where did all the dudes who used to prowl George Street go? And why would the city care about Rutgers - we aren't going anywhere.

I think if it were Newark based criminals they would target people in the gentrified areas, not the student areas.

I essence, the criminals have been forced out of the George Street area, which was largely ignored by students and forced into areas where they have more contact with students (i.e. the traditional student areas in the 5th and 6th ward.)

Just a theory.

Either way - yes - something needs to be done - if the state has to get involved, so be it.

Incidentally, I drove down Route 1 north of the main College Park campus this morning (a new backway to work when the highway is clogged), and its booming with new 6-8 story high rises - presumably catering to students and recent grads. This is one of the main ways that being split between 3 campuses KILLS us. You just can't build up NB for students like you can CP (and thus create something of an upscale student campus fortress) because there isn't the critical mass.
 
DerLeider, Wilkipedia says that Rutgers/New Brunswick has 41,000 students, compared to 37,000 at Maryland/College Park. The NB campus has plenty of critical mass. The difference is that the area around Rutgers is so congested that it's difficult to site anything without simply contributing more to the a.m. and p.m. traffic jams. (I'm not saying College Park isn't congested too, just not as much.) This is a big reason why NB is trying not to increase in size -- there's plenty of room on campus, but not a way to easily get students, faculty and staff to campus.
 
No - New Brunswick/Piscatway/Edison/Highland Park/North Brunswick has 40,000 students.

I've posted before that you could basically fit the entire College Park campus on Busch, Cook/Douglas, or Livingston. That is a critical mass. RU is very undense for a university = and its hugely spread out.

College Park is congested - the difference is - you don't have to go as far. If you don't live on campus you still won't have to go further than one campus. If you don't live on campus at Rutgers you could still have to plan on going to Busch, LIvingston, or Cook - with alot of people being focused on only one of them (which means they will want to live next to that one.)

My point is this - imagine that every single Rutgers-NB/P/E/HP/NoB student was on one campus in NB that occupied the area between the River, Route 27, Landing Lane, and Hawthorne Park. That would include everything - stadium arena, performing arts center, dorms, classrooms - don't you think NB would be much more student oriented than it is now.
 
But we don't need to fortress off the rest of the campus. Edison, HP and East Brunswick are fairly affluent and the area of Pway on the border is probably the nicest section of that area. Even the part of NB across from Bucculeuch is pretty well off.

And the area of NB on the south end of CAC is just fine. It's the area beyond that's the problem.

I see your point on George Street- I guess that could be it, but I don't recall that area being considered dangerous when I was a student. I would say now as opposed to then, there are way more people on the street over there late night because of the bars and people smoking outside...whereas when I was there, there were far fewer places open late. Were townies jumping people over there? I don't recall hearing about it- and we certainly had some episodes in my time.
 
I don't know if there is any force to this analogy, but it reminds me of Camden students deciding to patronize the liquor store on the other side of the road leading to the Ben Franklin bridge. There's frequent crime against students there. The more night hotspots there are, then, unfortunately, the greater opportunity for criminals to find prey.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

But we don't need to fortress off the rest of the campus. Edison, HP and East Brunswick are fairly affluent and the area of Pway on the border is probably the nicest section of that area. Even the part of NB across from Bucculeuch is pretty well off.

And the area of NB on the south end of CAC is just fine. It's the area beyond that's the problem.

I see your point on George Street- I guess that could be it, but I don't recall that area being considered dangerous when I was a student. I would say now as opposed to then, there are way more people on the street over there late night because of the bars and people smoking outside...whereas when I was there, there were far fewer places open late. Were townies jumping people over there? I don't recall hearing about it- and we certainly had some episodes in my time.
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Maybe not when you were a student, but when I was a student (1998-2002) it was. This was before Rockhoff, or the Sterling School or the RU safety building. I don't remember whether people got in trouble down there, but for the most part students just didn't go there at all. The area around New Street I don't think was as built up with yuppie destinations.


My point was RU has alot of edges - more so that a compact self-contained school like Maryland. The rest already are fortresses with moats of trees and grass. Only Cook Douglas really abuts a neighborhood. UMCP is not in a great nexk of the woods - PG COunty MD is pretty bad as far as crime. But the school itself is walled off. RU, as I said on the football board thread, needs to focus heavily on drawing students nearer to campus - which they are in the process of.
 
That's all true...personally I don't like a fortress campus, feels a little high schoolish to me. I just think if the patrol was taken more seriously we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I graduated in 2007. Maybe the argument is George has gotten too crowded to screw around but I do find it odd that all this is happening close in time and in awful weather.
 
Who in all honesty would want a fortresses off campus... What are we seton hall?

I think the uptick in crime stems from two things. The constant addition of nice thing in nb has led to a false sense of security among students. I'm sorry, but people are getting less and less street smart and the affluent destination downtowns of Westfield, Princeton, Red Bank, Morristown, etc have prob contributed to that false sense of security. It seems a little far fetched, but I've seen it with siblings of my classmates who are at RU now.

The second major thing is that 10 years ago, people weren't walking around with a $300-$500 device in their pockets. iPhones and droids are easily resold for a tremendous profit. That access to quick non-narcotic cash didn't exist back then.

When you combine those two, shit is going to happen. It's a sad reality of our world these days.
 
That's true but I also worry that some of these don't seem money related- and also, the most recent was dusk. That's just brazen.
 
Originally posted by bob-loblaw:
Who in all honesty would want a fortresses off campus... What are we seton hall?

I think the uptick in crime stems from two things. The constant addition of nice thing in nb has led to a false sense of security among students. I'm sorry, but people are getting less and less street smart and the affluent destination downtowns of Westfield, Princeton, Red Bank, Morristown, etc have prob contributed to that false sense of security. It seems a little far fetched, but I've seen it with siblings of my classmates who are at RU now.

The second major thing is that 10 years ago, people weren't walking around with a $300-$500 device in their pockets. iPhones and droids are easily resold for a tremendous profit. That access to quick non-narcotic cash didn't exist back then.

When you combine those two, shit is going to happen. It's a sad reality of our world these days.
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THe second would explain an uptick in thefts, and maybe even assaults (dude tries to steal your phone, turns into a fight), but not rapes and murders.

Most campuses are at laest semi-fortress - like I said - Busch, Livingston, and Cook/Douglas more or less are - you just don't notice it because the walls are forests and highways. With CA its tougher, because among other things, the university is now spread throughout NB with the addition of UMDNJ, but encouraging building of apartments between Easton and the current CA campus would go a long way towards creating a semi-fortress. Reality is NB isn't going to get better any time soon. If RU wants to avoid these problems the best way is to consolidate as many people as close to campus as possible.
 
You're right. Reality for me is crime and a lack of good housing stock kept me from buying in nb. The safety hasn't been/still isn't there.
 
You could walk from Society Hill or the apartments on Cedar Lane straight onto campus. But no one (except for RU students that live there, or people going to football games) does that. You could also walk from Highland Park to Rockoff, and none of the arrested criminals are from HP.
 
Could walk and are directly adjacent two are complete separate thing. You COULD walk from NB to Busch too - but the highway, River, and athletic facilities and parking more or less make that a no go - especially when you could walk from your house to an RU student house in NB just by walking across the street.

Essentially there are moats around the other campuses. They aren't impenetrable moats - but they are big enough that even if Highland Park and P'Way were trouble spots (they aren't), its generally just not worth it to go there. Compare that to CA where its the opposite - RU is basically a series of islands in NB - surrounded by neighborhoods of varying quality - from relatively upscale in the gentrified areas, to pretty horrifying in the ghetto areas.

This post was edited on 3/21 2:11 PM by derleider
 
The Camden campus is likewise surrounded by an invisible moat. I-676 blocks off East Camden; the line of the Ben Franklin bridge largely blocks North Camden. The downtown area, which seems deserted at night, blocks South Camden. And the PATCO line drops off two ominous-looking but well-patrolled blocks from the campus. The campus is open to West Camden, but there are not many residences there and almost no obvious derelicts.
 
I meant it would be practicable to walk- I'm not referring to crossing highways- I think it's illegal to walk on 18 over there. But yeah, the "islands" point is well taken. We need to emphasize the positives of that and work on security.
 
There's a pedestrian portion of the 18 bridge. I' walked it once to a game. It wasn't quick...
 
Originally posted by bob-loblaw:
There's a pedestrian portion of the 18 bridge. I' walked it once to a game. It wasn't quick...
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No its not. Hell, I once walked back from the Hill Center to the Newells on a particularly nice day in spring of 2000. Somewhere around where the school is now I came across a group of teenage locals who remarked "ooh sheet, a white boy in New Brunswick". It wasn't threatening, but it sure made me feel out of place only a few blocks from C/D and the Mason Gross campus.
 
Originally posted by srru86:
Camden Security in the News
Courier Post
Schools launch programs to battle sexual assault
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This article has little or nothing to do with "stranger crime" against Camden students, but rather with the problem of acquaintance rape, which is a problem no matter what the environs of the campus are like. Just as the article says, at least some Camden students perceive themselves as safe in passing from off-campus to the campus. I think that's good, but they might want to display urban smarts in where they walk and what they look like when they're walking.
 
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