Down goes Maryland!
- Thread starter RUClassof67
- Start date
Watching the tournament makes me sick because of the disgrace and embarrassment that we have in RU women's bball now.
Unfortunately I missed it.
For those keeping score at home:
2007: #7 Mississippi 89 #2 Maryland 78 on the Terps' home court
2008: #2 Stanford 98 #1 Maryland 87
2009: #3 Louisville 77 #1 Maryland 60
2011: #5 Georgetown 79 #4 Maryland 57 on the Terps' home court
2016: #7 Washington 74 #2 Maryland 65 on the Terps' home court
2017: #10 Oregon 77 #3 Maryland 63
6 times in 11 years (one of which was a year the Terps did not make the NCAAs), they've lost to a lower seeded team, 3 times at home, and 4 times (2 of those at home) to teams seeded at least 2 lines worse than them. Not once in those games was it close at the end, and the average margin was 14.
You may remember that a lot of people complained that the Terps were seeded too low. I'd argue that they probably were seeded too high because they underperform so often.
For those keeping score at home:
2007: #7 Mississippi 89 #2 Maryland 78 on the Terps' home court
2008: #2 Stanford 98 #1 Maryland 87
2009: #3 Louisville 77 #1 Maryland 60
2011: #5 Georgetown 79 #4 Maryland 57 on the Terps' home court
2016: #7 Washington 74 #2 Maryland 65 on the Terps' home court
2017: #10 Oregon 77 #3 Maryland 63
6 times in 11 years (one of which was a year the Terps did not make the NCAAs), they've lost to a lower seeded team, 3 times at home, and 4 times (2 of those at home) to teams seeded at least 2 lines worse than them. Not once in those games was it close at the end, and the average margin was 14.
You may remember that a lot of people complained that the Terps were seeded too low. I'd argue that they probably were seeded too high because they underperform so often.
No. Resigned, more or less. The general commentary for at least some of the game was that Maryland was playing frantic.
Oregon was nice to watch - that will end next round.
The tournament would have great parity without Uconn .With UConn its a total joke because everybody knows the final result this year and probably every year until Geno leaves.The consecutive win total is over 100 and counting.
Is Geno the only one who can recruit and coach? Uconn WBB started at the bottom and worked its way up, Geno was a young coach with new ideas and it paid off, something that Rutgers should consider
Geno dominates recruiting to such a level where there is no down year after graduations.Other schools have head coaches who are good at teaching fundamentals but just can't bring in the players with size and shooting ability to compete with UConn.
So here's the interesting thing: He doesn't dominate recruiting. I thought he did, too, but I had reason to take a look at it last week, and here's what I found for the last four classes, based on HoopGurlz rankings:
2016 – 1 top 20 player (#3). 5 other teams had 2 or more
2015 – 2 top 20 players (#1 and #6). 4 other teams had 2 each
2014 – 2 top 20 players (#14 and #17). 4 other teams had 2 each
2013 – 0 top 20 players. 2 teams had 3 each; 2 others had 2 each
I didn't do a rigorous comparison of how teams did over the four year time frame, but it looked to me like several teams ended up with as many or more top 20 and top 10 players in that time frame as UConn. I have to say I was a bit surprised.
Thanks for the research.Its hard to believe UConn had no top 20 recruits in 2013 .Perhaps they had no scholarships to offer.I also would question 2014 data with #14,#17 recruits.Something is missing here .Its hard to believe UConn could win over 100 straight games with little or no recruiting help for 2 consecutive seasons.
She does lose often when expected to win, but in her defense, she's usually expected to win.
I'm so torn with Brenda. On one hand, you've got what you've described above. On the other hand, at Maryland, she's won a national championship and nine conference/tournament championships. She's been to three Final Fours, six Elite Eights, eight Sweet 16s, and 13 of the last 15 NCAA tournaments. In addition having 30+ win seasons 6 of the last 10 years, she's been to two of the last four Final Fours and five of the last 10 Elite Eights. She's also had her program ranked in the final AP top-10 eight times in the past 10 seasons.
What active coaches can top her last 15 years? Auriemma, Vanderveer, and McGraw?
I'm not torn - I don't like her, and that's all I need to know. And I don't like Mulkey, either. But I do like Tara VdV and McGraw.
And I think her post-2006 record suggests that she really isn't a great game coach. She recruits very well and I think she motivates very well. But losing so many games as the favorite, particularly against teams seeded significantly lower and at home, tells me that she mostly doesn't rise to the biggest moments.
And I think her post-2006 record suggests that she really isn't a great game coach. She recruits very well and I think she motivates very well. But losing so many games as the favorite, particularly against teams seeded significantly lower and at home, tells me that she mostly doesn't rise to the biggest moments.
Well, for one thing, you have to look over a 4 year period at what he has accumulated. What he had was the top WNBA picks last year. And this year he has (depending on the number of players, etc) upwards to 3 AA's, and add in at least 2 additional outstanding players. And then he is a great developer within his system, which is also flexible to adapt to the players he gets.
Don't like UConn, mostly because of some of their fans and some of Geno's behavior in the past. But consider Geno the greatest coach WBB has ever seen He does have great talent (although he doesn't dominate recruiting, he does get a very respectable share and often serious "impact" type players), but the attitude he instills in them of accepting nothing less than perfection is just amazing.
The argument seems to be she doesn't win every game she coaches, which is absurd. In the 11 years since winning the national championship, she's 291-66. Maryland has earned 10 NCAA tournament bids in that span. She's failed to advance to the Sweet 16 twice. Yes, she loses as the higher seeded team. She also wins a lot as the higher seeded team. Just like other elite coaches.
She's a future Hall of Fame coach with a 15 year run at Maryland that can be bested by three or four active coaches. That doesn't go away because she isn't likeable.
She doesn't just lose - she loses to lower seeded teams much more frequently than other coaches, particularly at home. In the entire CVS era, RU has lost one home game in the NCAAs to a lower seed (plus 3 to lower seeds on their home courts - thanks NCAA!), while winning at least 5 games over lower seeds, including a 7-2 matchup and a 4-1 matchup.
Look, I'm not saying she's a bad coach overall, and she obviously recruits very well, but I think it's fair to say that if, oh, Dawn Staley had the talent that Frese had over the same period of time, she'd have a better record in the NCAAs.
bingo...and in the last 6-7 years her success has dwarfed CVS so not sure why this board continues to critique while letting CVS skate free
such a terrible disappointment particularly her in season records
Maryland Terrapins (Atlantic Coast Conference) (2002–2014)
2002–03 Maryland 10–18 4–13 9th
2003–04 Maryland 18–13 9–9 3rd NCAA Second Round
2004–05 Maryland 22–10 9–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2005–06 Maryland 34–4 14–3 T–2nd NCAA Champions
2006–07 Maryland 28–6 11–5 3rd NCAA Second Round
2007–08 Maryland 33–4 14–2 2nd NCAA Elite Eight
2008–09 Maryland 31–5 15–2 1st NCAA Elite Eight
2009–10 Maryland 21–13 6–10 9th WNIT Third Round
2010–11 Maryland 24–8 9–5 4th NCAA Second Round
2011–12 Maryland 31–5 12–4 3rd NCAA Elite Eight
2012–13 Maryland 26–8 14–4 3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2013–14 Maryland 28–7 12–4 3rd NCAA Final Four
Maryland (ACC): 306–101 (.752) 129–69 (.652)
Maryland Terrapins (Big Ten Conference) (2014–present)
2014–15 Maryland 34–3 18–0 1st NCAA Final Four
2015–16 Maryland 31–4 16–2 1st NCAA Second Round
2016–17 Maryland 32–3 15–1 T-1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
Maryland (Big Ten): 96–10 (.906) 49–3 (.942)
Maryland (Overall): 402–111 (.784)
And she will end her career (most likely) in the Hall of Fame and with a better career record than CVS (likely by win percentage) and she has indeed won a national championship. As BeK noted, she isn't a bad over-all coach.
The problem Bac is we are not comparing her to CVS. All anyone is saying (besides the fact she isn't particularly like-able, which is a matter of personal taste, although count me in that group) is that, given the talent level and regular season performance of her team, she often under-performs in the NCAA's. Jim Foster was another one with that issue (even more-so) and it cost him his job. Mulkey has been having issues as well - Baylor has been highly ranked and dominant in conference but has not been to the final four since their last natty.
Rutgers has not had the kind of talent Baylor and Maryland have had on as regular a basis, and certainly not lately. But, on average over the years, if there has been under-performance on Rutgers it has happened in-season; I would say that there were few NCAA tourneys where RU didn't do as well or better than expected.
Rutgers fans should dream about the consistency of the top 10 rankings ,30 win seasons along with a national championship.
Absolutely. As a factual matter pointing out a weakness in Brenda's accomplishments doesn't diminish what she has accomplished (and still is accomplishing).
As was pointed out in the paper here in Tucson last week, Arizona men have been among the top seeds for quite a number of years now, but pundits out here are saying "Can't win the big one" about coach Miller. How many programs would love to be as successful as UofA men are?
Rutgers under CVS has never reached the heights of a number of blue chip programs. For about a 10 year period - as I have said before - every metric I looked at suggested we were about the 9th best program for that time period (wins, NCAA finishes, and the like). Some of these other programs were around during that time, some have risen up more recently. The upside for the Pac schools that have had recent success (for example) is really unbelievable.
Sadly for RU and whomever coaches it long term, the Big 10 has fallen to being the weakest conference of the P5. Whether or not that can be turned around remains to be seen.
I do understand your point and it's definitely not lost on me. All I'm saying is that I'd care MUCH more about the losing to lower seeds issue if 1) she didn't have HOF numbers and 2) consistently lost to these lower seeds in the first and second rounds. You say if Dawn had Brenda's talent, she'd have a better tournament record. That'd mean Brenda would be the 5th best active coach instead of the 4th best. Sooooo awful.
It just seems nit-picky, to me, to call Brenda out without calling a coach like K out. They aren't in the same stratosphere in the coaching profession, but they both earn their teams high seeds every year and neither wins every NCAA tournament they play in. Duke loses an Elite 8 game to a lower seed and it's "Woah...Duke won their conference and conference tournament and made the Elite 8! K has another awesome season!" Brenda does the EXACT same thing and she's a underperformer who doesn't get the job done. She has more national championships, Final Fours, and Elite Eights in the last 15 years at Maryland than Rutgers women's basketball has in its entire history.
I just don't understand the intense focus on what she doesn't do while disregarding what she does do, especially by Rutgers fans. She's literally been to half of the last four Final Fours and half of the last 10 Elite Eights!
There is very much a majorly critical conversation going on amongst Maryland fans about a certain basketball coach's dismal NCAA tournament performances, but that talk is about Mark Turgeon, not Brenda Frese.
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Since the thread is about Maryland women's basketball, I didn't see any reason to discuss any men's basketball coaches. (But for the record, I would agree that she's better than Turgeon.)
Also, if she'd taken her team to the Elite 8 this year, we wouldn't be having the conversation about why the Terps underperform their seed in the tournament.
Also, if she'd taken her team to the Elite 8 this year, we wouldn't be having the conversation about why the Terps underperform their seed in the tournament.
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