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OT; Any lawyers/firms hiring??

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RU Diesel07110

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Feb 5, 2007
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Junior passed the bar exam and is clerking for a judge in Newark, which runs out in May. Hes sending out resumes non stop, talking/asking/begging/pleading..lol.. but still no luck. Graduated from R, was on law review and kicks my ass in Jeopordy.
Any insight/leads greatly appreciated!
 
My advise would be to start an ethical career with demand for his skills while he is still young.
 
I hear Milton, Chadwick & Waters has an opening for the right man.
 
RU Diesel07110 said:
Junior passed the bar exam and is clerking for a judge in Newark, which runs out in May. Hes sending out resumes non stop, talking/asking/begging/pleading..lol.. but still no luck. Graduated from R, was on law review and kicks my ass in Jeopordy.
Any insight/leads greatly appreciated!
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Email me his resume and I'll ask around. matthewgennaro (at) yahoo (dot) com

Edit: I'm a lawyer at the NJ office of a global firm. I can't promise anything, but I can pass his resume on to our Managing Partner. Oh, and we specialize in contract law. Email me if you want to discuss; I'd be happy to help in any way I can. We like Rutgers grads.
 
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I know some people think 1 is too many but just wondering if we're hitting the wall with the # of law school grads vs jobs?

I have two famiiy members with around a combined 60 years in the profession. I've heard them say it's a lot more difficult starting out these days.
 
RU Diesel07110 said:
Junior passed the bar exam and is clerking for a judge in Newark, which runs out in May. Hes sending out resumes non stop, talking/asking/begging/pleading..lol.. but still no luck. Graduated from R, was on law review and kicks my ass in Jeopordy.
Any insight/leads greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Wow. I know it's been a rough few years in the legal market, but a Rutgers law review grad with no job offers is quite surprising. I thought the market had improved. Very depressing. Best of luck to him.
 
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RU Diesel07110 said:
I agree. I think hes contacting the bigger firms in NJ/NY
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The problem with that approach, unless things have changed, is that big law firms hire from law schools during fall and spring recruiting visits. The way it used to work is that if a 2nd year law school student summer clerked for a firm, they were generally given an offer in the early fall (or not offered), and start of employment could be deferred if the student was going to clerk for a judge. That may have all changed. With the law industry experiencing a huge downturn, fewer summer associates were hired than in the past.

Best way to go if he is going for big law firms is to network with younger or older associates who are alums from the same law school or undergrad. I am always receptive and try to help young attorneys from SHU Law and Rutgers University. However, when I used that approach as a youg 'un, I had at least one or two crotchety old dudes get grouchy with me and ask why I was bothering them.
 
knightfan7 said:
I know some people think 1 is too many but just wondering if we're hitting the wall with the # of law school grads vs jobs?

I have two famiiy members with around a combined 60 years in the profession. I've heard them say it's a lot more difficult starting out these days.
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It is. Even in the field I work in, patents, it is tough to break into the field.
 
knightfan7 said:
I know some people think 1 is too many but just wondering if we're hitting the wall with the # of law school grads vs jobs?

I have two famiiy members with around a combined 60 years in the profession. I've heard them say it's a lot more difficult starting out these days.
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RU-ROCS said:
Wow. I know it's been a rough few years in the legal market, but a Rutgers law review grad with no job offers is quite surprising. I thought the market had improved. Very depressing. Best of luck to him.
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From where I sit, the market has not really improved at all, and it isn't going to change anytime soon. Demand for legal services is basically flat, while law schools are continuing to churn out thousands of new graduates every year. If you are not attending a top tier law school, or are not in the top 10% or so of your graduating class, it is tough out there. I see so many law students we hire come and go with no plan for the future. Many of them are not working as lawyers. I have also had several people here who are licensed attorneys working as law clerks for $20 an hour. This is a student job, but good for me if I can get a licensed atty for $20 an hour. These guys are taking it on the chin just to get some experience. Most are average students from Rutgers and Seton Hall, some of whom are quite bright. And there is nothing out there for them. If they are committed to legal work, most are looking at government jobs or insurance jobs that may pay $60,000 - $70,000 to start.

No one should be deterred if being a lawyer is what they really want to do. But I try to discourage anyone from pursuing this profession for monetary gain. The legal marketplace for the run of the mill candidate has shifted significantly. The law firms have a significant advantage. They don't need new lawyers, because they can get guys with 5 years experience for the same price. This has driven down not only the number of opportunities out there, but also the available pay.

While the picture is bleak, however, there is always opportunity. If you can establish yourself as an attorney, you will still earn a very nice living. You just have to get from law school to 5 years experience. There are jobs out there, but they are tough to find. You need to work every angle, professors, family friends, anyone you know who is an attorney. Many law firms that are small or midsized are never "hiring." But if the right person comes in the door (especially with the right referral or connection), they may take you on. All you need is a foot in the door. Then it is up to you and your work product.

I would also stress that no matter how difficult it is to find work, do NOT seek or take a job at a firm that practices a type of law you find unbearable. You WILL get pigeonholed, and it will take extraordinary good fortune and hard work to switch practice areas. There are no general practitioners anymore. You need to specialize to survive, and most stuff will take about 5 years to learn with any degree of proficiency. Once you are working an area of the law you are highly likely to be practicing that kind of law for the rest of your career.
 
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RU-ROCS said:
Wow. I know it's been a rough few years in the legal market, but a Rutgers law review grad with no job offers is quite surprising. I thought the market had improved. Very depressing. Best of luck to him.
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Very depressing. Best of luck to him. Maybe an alternative career, like Compliance, may work for him.
 
Cabbagehead basically nailed it.

If you cannot get into a top 100 (some would say top 50 or 14) school, DO NOT BOTHER. You will take out loans out the wazoo for nothing. I would say if you cannot get into RU or say St. John's in NYC, do not waste your time. Do not go to a third tier school. Yes, a lot of good lawyers come from those schools. I know lawyers who graduated from those schools who can and do run circles around Ivy League lawyers. But they got their careers started when having a JD was a quick ticket into the upper middle class.

I happened upon a law job in the insurance sector after graduating in the recession with nothing. I wanted to be a land use attorney- I graduated at a time when the real estate market was rock bottom. I went to a top 50 school, was in the middle of my class, and was jostling with NYU and Columbia grads for jobs that Brooklyn and Cardozo grads would have sneered at 5 years before. An interviewer for a government job said NYU students never applied for jobs until that year, when they sent hundreds of resumes. The push for NJ clerkships was coming from people who never set foot in NJ. Same with CT.

A few years later, I'm making good money and comfortable payments on my loan, and I'm in house so I don't bill hours and I do have a life outside of work. A lot of my fellow alums are now in house or in JD required/preferred jobs, because the law firms then treated us like garbage. Some law schools actually started banning them from their campuses after they let students go, wouldn't extend summer offers to anyone, or made sudden cancellations on students.

I think the OP is doing it right- get some leads, he will find something and build some experience. It is not easy out there so it is better than where it was. If the OP's son likes contracts, there are some insurance firms and companies hiring.
 
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NotInRHouse said:
Cabbagehead basically nailed it.

If you cannot get into a top 100 (some would say top 50 or 14) school, DO NOT BOTHER. You will take out loans out the wazoo for nothing. I would say if you cannot get into RU or say St. John's in NYC, do not waste your time. Do not go to a third tier school. Yes, a lot of good lawyers come from those schools. I know lawyers who graduated from those schools who can and do run circles around Ivy League lawyers. But they got their careers started when having a JD was a quick ticket into the upper middle class.

I happened upon a law job in the insurance sector after graduating in the recession with nothing. I wanted to be a land use attorney- I graduated at a time when the real estate market was rock bottom. I went to a top 50 school, was in the middle of my class, and was jostling with NYU and Columbia grads for jobs that Brooklyn and Cardozo grads would have sneered at 5 years before. An interviewer for a government job said NYU students never applied for jobs until that year, when they sent hundreds of resumes. The push for NJ clerkships was coming from people who never set foot in NJ. Same with CT.

A few years later, I'm making good money and comfortable payments on my loan, and I'm in house so I don't bill hours and I do have a life outside of work. A lot of my fellow alums are now in house or in JD required/preferred jobs, because the law firms then treated us like garbage. Some law schools actually started banning them from their campuses after they let students go, wouldn't extend summer offers to anyone, or made sudden cancellations on students.

I think the OP is doing it right- get some leads, he will find something and build some experience. It is not easy out there so it is better than where it was. If the OP's son likes contracts, there are some insurance firms and companies hiring.
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All solid advice, but I would not take St. John's over Seton Hall Law School. Seton Hall Law has an excellent network throughout NJ.
 
Ole Cabbagehead said:
From where I sit, the market has not really improved at all, and it isn't going to change anytime soon. Demand for legal services is basically flat, while law schools are continuing to churn out thousands of new graduates every year. If you are not attending a top tier law school, or are not in the top 10% or so of your graduating class, it is tough out there. I see so many law students we hire come and go with no plan for the future. Many of them are not working as lawyers. I have also had several people here who are licensed attorneys working as law clerks for $20 an hour. This is a student job, but good for me if I can get a licensed atty for $20 an hour. These guys are taking it on the chin just to get some experience. Most are average students from Rutgers and Seton Hall, some of whom are quite bright. And there is nothing out there for them. If they are committed to legal work, most are looking at government jobs or insurance jobs that may pay $60,000 - $70,000 to start.

No one should be deterred if being a lawyer is what they really want to do. But I try to discourage anyone from pursuing this profession for monetary gain. The legal marketplace for the run of the mill candidate has shifted significantly. The law firms have a significant advantage. They don't need new lawyers, because they can get guys with 5 years experience for the same price. This has driven down not only the number of opportunities out there, but also the available pay.

While the picture is bleak, however, there is always opportunity. If you can establish yourself as an attorney, you will still earn a very nice living. You just have to get from law school to 5 years experience. There are jobs out there, but they are tough to find. You need to work every angle, professors, family friends, anyone you know who is an attorney. Many law firms that are small or midsized are never "hiring." But if the right person comes in the door (especially with the right referral or connection), they may take you on. All you need is a foot in the door. Then it is up to you and your work product.

I would also stress that no matter how difficult it is to find work, do NOT seek or take a job at a firm that practices a type of law you find unbearable. You WILL get pigeonholed, and it will take extraordinary good fortune and hard work to switch practice areas. There are no general practitioners anymore. You need to specialize to survive, and most stuff will take about 5 years to learn with any degree of proficiency. Once you are working an area of the law you are highly likely to be practicing that kind of law for the rest of your career.
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The bold part is, in my opinion, the best way to do it. Almost all of our younger attorneys at our small firm came through referrals or connections and they have done well for themselves. In my opinion, non-litigation law practice in a smaller firm is more personally, professionally and perhaps financially rewarding than working in a big law firm or in house--but as I tell young attorneys, never take a job because of money. You have to like the work first, and be good at what you do--everything else, including $$$$, follows.
 
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Knight Shift said:
-but as I tell young attorneys, never take a job because of money. You have to like the work first, and be good at what you do--everything else, including $$$$, follows.
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Spoken like someone who doesn't have $100,000+ in school debt. [winking]
 
RU-ROCS said:
Spoken like someone who doesn't have $100,000+ in school debt. [winking]
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Way back when in the 1990's when I went to law school, it was about $15K/year. My wife and I scraped and saved enough to cover 3 years' tuition so I could go full time while she worked. In my last year, I made editor of law review and at that time, that meant no tuition. I graduated with $15K in the bank. That was about 20 years ago, and I started out not making much at all--job market was terrible, and we relocated to Cincinnati, Ohio, which sucked, but was necessary. 20 years later, it was definitely all worth it--as Bruce Springsteen wrote-- from small things, big things one day come.
 
Knight Shift said:
Way back when in the 1990's when I went to law school, it was about $15K/year. My wife and I scraped and saved enough to cover 3 years' tuition so I could go full time while she worked. In my last year, I made editor of law review and at that time, that meant no tuition. I graduated with $15K in the bank. That was about 20 years ago, and I started out not making much at all--job market was terrible, and we relocated to Cincinnati, Ohio, which sucked, but was necessary. 20 years later, it was definitely all worth it--as Bruce Springsteen wrote-- from small things, big things one day come.
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Different strokes for different strokes. I graduated more than 25 years ago. When I made law review, there was no money for the honor, but it was great on the resume. In the late 1980's, however, the legal market was red-hot and I had almost literally to ward off Wall St. law firm recruiters with a stick. My philosophy then was take the highest paying job at the most prestigious firm to pay off my debts, knowing after that I could go almost anywhere. That philosophy served me well.
 
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RU-ROCS said:
Different strokes for different strokes. I graduated more than 25 years ago. When I made law review, there was no money for the honor, but it was great on the resume. In the late 1980's, however, the legal market was red-hot and I had almost literally to ward off Wall St. law firm recruiters with a stick. My philosophy then was take the highest paying job at the most prestigious firm to pay off my debts, knowing after that I could go almost anywhere. That philosophy served me well.
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I think if someone is driven and goal-oriented, and they have some sort of plan, it all works out. Different paths can lead to "success" and happiness. Success does not necessarily mean making top dollar to me. Most important is enjoying what I do, liking my co-workers and having a life outside of work.
 
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RU Diesel07110 said:
Junior passed the bar exam and is clerking for a judge in Newark, which runs out in May. Hes sending out resumes non stop, talking/asking/begging/pleading..lol.. but still no luck. Graduated from R, was on law review and kicks my ass in Jeopordy.
Any insight/leads greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Dewy,Cheatem and Howe is looking.
 
There's a lot of excellent advice on this thread. One thing I would do -- it may seem like a waste of time, but it's not -- is to contact the Career Services office at your alma mater. These offices have figured out that they must serve alums as well as graduating students, and they can give leads.

Law is an awful profession to be in if it bores you. (Actually, I think that's true of any occupation). So I echo the advice above that one should only go to law school if one thinks he or she is really going to enjoy it.

I also agree that small firms are worth looking at. Never judge the quality of a law firm by its size. There are jobs there if you seek them out.
 
RU4Real said:
I hear Milton, Chadwick & Waters has an opening for the right man.
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I had to google that one. For those who also may not know, that was the firm from the movie The Devil's Advocate.
 
camdenlawprof said:
I also agree that small firms are worth looking at. Never judge the quality of a law firm by its size. There are jobs there if you seek them out.
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It's not the size of the firm, it the motion in the motion? Don't do a lot of contested work in my field, but we have fared well (almost said "held our own") against some big firms.
 
Knight Shift said:
All solid advice, but I would not take St. John's over Seton Hall Law School. Seton Hall Law has an excellent network throughout NJ.
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Agree. What I mean is in the USNWR ranking, which would be the bible for a prospective applicant. SHU ranks higher than SJU and RU these days. So I would say that unless you get into a school at least the caliber of RU or SJU- eg- the bottom of the 100...it is not worth it. I graduated RU in 07, and even then, SHU was getting a lot of RU alums because they were competitive price wise after scholarships. SHU is #65, even higher than RU, definitely making sense to go there.

And again, I want to emphasize, it's not to say third tier schools don't teach the same thing, they definitely do, but these days, the degree isn't worth the cost.
 
Third-tier is OK, but *only* if your grades are extremely high. That will give the option of transferring to a better school. (Generally, law schools take only the best as transfers.) So maybe give it a shot for a year, and hope that lightning strikes you.

Let me edit my opinion a little: some third-tier schools have extensive alumni networks that can help a graduate get his or her feet wet. But I would be cautious of any relatively new school.
 
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Also, these days, LSAT numbers are way down. The numbers that got me into Fordham 10 years ago would get me into Georgetown or Cornell today.
 
As a fellow Rutgers law & law review alum -- If he wants to shoot me an email at jcwargo at gmail dot com I can forward his resume on to our hiring partner if he's interested (I practice corporate transactional for a mid to large size firm in the Princeton area). Also, if he wants to bounce anything off me I can probably provide some feedback since I went through the same process of seeking post-clerkship employment less than a year ago.
 
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brodo said:
I had to google that one. For those who also may not know, that was the firm from the movie The Devil's Advocate.
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Bendini, Lambert and Locke in Memphis is small, but the pay and benefits are incredible. Good luck leaving, though.
 
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