OT: Brian Flores suing the NFL and NY Giants, alleging racism in hiring

[koleszar]

If 38% of assistant coaches are black, wouldn't you expect that the HC candidates and interviewees would be somewhere close to in line with that proportion? The NFL has been tracking this and Goodell just came out and said that they're not doing a good enough job on the diversity front.

And what did you expect him to say in the face of media and public pressure during the current climate? The mob is out in full force looking for their pound of flesh and you want him to offer it up on a silver platter?

I just find it hard to believe that Owners who if their club wins, they make more money would purposely choose to hire an inferior head coach just because he's white. That in furthering that proposed agenda, they would be voluntarily deciding against making more. That's basically what you're saying here. Owners are choosing to be racist in hiring mind you just Head Coaches so they can make less money.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Ugh you’re not gonna agree with me and I am not gonna agree with you .
Flood the dud and ash were hired not because they were white , but because pernetti and hobbs were morons.

I also don’t really understand the “interview” process when hiring football coaches at high levels. These guys all come with a big body of work , that is what the hiring decision should be based on . The giants were gonna hire Dabol because that’s who the new GM wanted . They didn’t have to do any interviews really.

Not saying it was racial. I am saying coaches' hiring is not based on merit but players are.

It's fine they wanted Daboll but they should have given other coaches a more realistic chance.

 

[LotusAggressor]

One reflects the combine and one reflects a boy's club. I don't know how it's hard to see that.

It's hard to see when you're blind.

 

[NotInRHouse]

38% of assistant coaches are black. Black people only make up 14% of the USA's population. I'm failing to see the boy's club reference. So you're saying we won't have equity till the entire NFL is 70% black since 70% of players are black? Is that right or do you have another magic percentage number in mind? Also you're saying the NFL decided to be racist in hiring Black Head Coaches, this is where they decided to draw the line but not when it comes to assistants?

Ofc there is a yuge difference between assistants and head coaches, yes. Is there not a difference between CEOs and others on a corporate board?

There is no "magic number." There is no quota needed. It's more like having coaches that are at least mildy reflected in the players. 1/32 versus 70%.

 

[Plum Street]

Not saying it was racial. I am saying coaches' hiring is not based on merit but players are.

It's fine they wanted Daboll but they should have given other coaches a more realistic chance.

The whole debate here that Flores is right about is that the giants wasted his time and they did. The giants were gonna hire Dabol , he was there guy .
Just like rutgers should have just hired schiano. The Mets should have just hired Showalter . Sometimes things just make sense and you don’t need to grandstand.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The whole debate here that Flores is right about is that the giants wasted his time and they did. The giants were gonna hire Dabol , he was there guy .
Just like rutgers should have just hired schiano. The Mets should have just hired Showalter . Sometimes things just make sense and you don’t need to grandstand.

OK, but GS was coach here before. It's much different. And the NFL has rules, whether you like them or not, follow it and then lobby NFL to change.

 

[tico brown]

I would think owners are going to hire the best guy to help them win . Just like they sign players with the intent of winning .

How does the Rooney rule really work ? Do they ask a guy like Flores what minority group do you belong ? He’s North American.
Because I never actually saw that on someone’s resume or does the nfl acrually have an applications with race box to check ?

That question is on every job application.

That question is on every state/ federal background/fingerprint check application.

 

[tico brown]

The whole debate here that Flores is right about is that the giants wasted his time and they did. The giants were gonna hire Dabol , he was there guy .
Just like rutgers should have just hired schiano. The Mets should have just hired Showalter . Sometimes things just make sense and you don’t need to grandstand.

I actually agree with you that a Buffalo guy is going to hire a Buffalo guy, even though I would’ve preferred Flores’ experience and what he did despite the owner doing everything he could do to tank. And I also say that the Rooney Rule is a fraud with owners checkboxing candidates to skirt that rule.

But the league’s history says of sham hires of unqualified coaches over qualified ones was a big reason for the Rooney Rule to exist.

 

[Plum Street]

That question is on every job application.

That question is on every state/ federal background/fingerprint check application.

Ok so Flores checked a box on his application to the giants ? And Dabol checked another box ?

 

[mildone]

Ugh you’re not gonna agree with me and I am not gonna agree with you .
Flood the dud and ash were hired not because they were white , but because pernetti and hobbs were morons.

I also don’t really understand the “interview” process when hiring football coaches at high levels. These guys all come with a big body of work , that is what the hiring decision should be based on . The giants were gonna hire Dabol because that’s who the new GM wanted . They didn’t have to do any interviews really.

You keep conflating what should happen with what is happening.

You're operating under the unprovable assumption, unprovable both numerically and specifically, that race isn't a factor in how NFL coaches are hired. We do not have a perfect way of knowing how much race factors into NFL coach hiring practices. Wishing it was working fine does not make it so.

Although far from perfect, the only way we can try to measure it is by analyzing three things:

1. Comparing the percentage of coaches by race versus the percentage of general population by race and
2. Analyzing the systems in place for hiring.
3. Analyzing the level of interest by race (or by other demographics, if pertinent).

You must do all three things or we're only looking at a partial picture. If the system in place (#2) can be determined to be both rigorous and unbiased with respect to race, then it should take priority over the comparison of percentages. Doesn't mean #1 goes away entirely, but it means it's far less likely that race is a determinant.

#3 is necessary because not all races among the general population have the same level of interest in a job in the NFL. There might be N Indian-Americans in the US, but a poll of Indian-Americans will likely reveal that interest in coaching in the NFL is considerably lower than, say, among white or black Americans. That is a mitigating factor when considering item #1 from above.

If there is no #2, then all we have is #1 (possibly mitigated by #3). And that's the current situation with NFL coach hires. And at the moment, to choose one race, black head coaches in the NFL comprise about half the percentage of black people in the general population. And interest in football and coaching among black Americans is as high as any other high-interest ethnic group in America, so there's no mitigating factor to explain the percentage gap.

So the fact that there are, and have been, so few black NFL head coaches is inexplicable and thus troubling to people who value diversity. For those who dislike diversity, or dislike one or more races, it's not troubling in the slightest - it's a good thing. And thus they will speak out, in various ways, always in opposition to diversity.

 

[Plum Street]

I actually agree with you that a Buffalo guy is going to hire a Buffalo guy, even though I would’ve preferred Flores’ experience and what he did despite the owner doing everything he could do to tank. And I also say that the Rooney Rule is a fraud with owners checkboxing candidates to skirt that rule.

But the league’s history says of sham hires of unqualified coaches over qualified ones was a big reason for the Rooney Rule to exist.

I actually wanted Caldwell for the giants . But whatever . The talent is so bad it won’t matter for a couple years

 

[Plum Street]

You keep conflating what should happen with what is happening.

You're operating under the unprovable assumption, unprovable both numerically and specifically, that race isn't a factor in how NFL coaches are hired. We do not have a perfect way of knowing how much race factors into NFL coach hiring practices. Wishing it was working fine does not make it so.

Although far from perfect, the only way we can try to measure it is by analyzing three things:

1. Comparing the percentage of coaches by race versus the percentage of general population by race and
2. Analyzing the systems in place for hiring.
3. Analyzing the level of interest by race (or by other demographics, if pertinent).

You must do all three things or we're only looking at a partial picture. If the system in place (#2) can be determined to be both rigorous and unbiased with respect to race, then it should take priority over the comparison of percentages. Doesn't mean #1 goes away entirely, but it means it's far less likely that race is a determinant.

#3 is necessary because not all races among the general population have the same level of interest in a job in the NFL. There might be N Indian-Americans in the US, but a poll of Indian-Americans will likely reveal that interest in coaching in the NFL is considerably lower than, say, among white or black Americans. That is a mitigating factor when considering item #1 from above.

If there is no #2, then all we have is #1 (possibly mitigated by #3). And that's the current situation with NFL coach hires. And at the moment, to choose one race, black head coaches in the NFL comprise about half the percentage of black people in the general population. And interest in football and coaching among black Americans is as high as any other high-interest ethnic group in America, so there's no mitigating factor to explain the percentage gap.

So the fact that there are, and have been, so few black NFL head coaches is inexplicable and thus troubling to people who value diversity. For those who dislike diversity, or dislike one or more races, it's not troubling in the slightest - it's a good thing. And thus they will speak out, in various ways, always in opposition to diversity.

Ehh too much work there . I like to keep it simple . Hire the best guy . Play the best guy . Be color blind.

 

[tico brown]

Ok so Flores checked a box on his application to the giants ? And Dabol checked another box ?

Just simply responding to your statement that

“I never actually saw that on someone’s resume.”

Don’t ask stupid questions that has obvious answers just to continue this charade.

 

[Plum Street]

Just simply responding to your statement that

“I never actually saw that on someone’s resume.”

Don’t ask stupid questions that has obvious answers just to continue this charade.

Yeah , such a stupid question, yet no can answer. There has to be a process and a paper trail . That’s how HR departments function. I hope it’s not something like “oh he looks like a minority or I read his Wikipedia.” We can all agree that would be awful

 

[RUevolution36]

Ehh too much work there . I like to keep it simple . Hire the best guy . Play the best guy . Be color blind.

It's not a simple world that we live in.

 

[yesrutgers01]

I would think owners are going to hire the best guy to help them win . Just like they sign players with the intent of winning .

How does the Rooney rule really work ? Do they ask a guy like Flores what minority group do you belong ? He’s North American.
Because I never actually saw that on someone’s resume or does the nfl acrually have an applications with race box to check ?

I just can't do this anymore. time to just lock this damn thread up @Richard Schnyderite Without a T

 

[Plum Street]

I just can't do this anymore. time to just lock this damn thread up @Richard Schnyderite Without a T

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk . I went back and edited it.
Seriously , I don’t know how the rule works . Teams should have to show they are complying with the rule.

 

[Plum Street]

I just can't do this anymore. time to just lock this damn thread up @Richard Schnyderite Without a T

I actually think this is a good thread . Got me thinking opportunity may not be that equal . But the Rooney rule needs work and still can’t really be explained as to the process

 

[tico brown]

Yeah , such a stupid question, yet no can answer. There has to be a process and a paper trail . That’s how HR departments function. I hope it’s not something like “oh he looks like a minority or I read his Wikipedia.” We can all agree that would be awful

What would you think which box Daboll and Flores would check off each? That’s all.

 

[tico brown]

Blanket statements like “your experience is wrong because I never experienced that” is killing this conversation, that’s simply going in circles. And yes, even though it’s more from one side, it is used on both. With come up with solutions or figure out why this is happening one way or another. or just keep circling.

 

[Plum Street]

What would you think which box Daboll and Flores would check off each? That’s all.

It’s sad that they would even have to go through that . That’s what I am saying .

 

[Plum Street]

Blanket statements like “your experience is wrong because I never experienced that” is killing this conversation, that’s simply going in circles. And yes, even though it’s more from one side, it is used on both. With come up with solutions or figure out why this is happening one way or another. or just keep circling.

I agree with you here .

 

[yesrutgers01]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk . I went back and edited it.
Seriously , I don’t know how the rule works . Teams should have to show they are complying with the rule.

plum- my giving up has nothing to do with discussing the rooney rule- quite frankly, it is very stupid and has done nothing to fix the problem.

It had to do with the 2nd part of the bolded paragraph from you where you are equating race to where a person lives.